The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

DLSJR said:
I think scenario has a lot to do with how a buffalo reacts to taking a shot. In the case of the one I shot recently, he was alone, totally relaxed and unaware of us until my bullet struck him. He appeared hurt way worse than I expected, in obvious distress immediately and not using his right front leg much at all. And that was from a relatively small, 225 grain solid. From first to third shots he went about 30 yards and was dead in about 15-30 seconds.

Contrast that with a buffalo my son shot a few years ago with 300 grain TSX’s in his 375. There were three bulls and they were aware of him and his PH when my son shot. His first shot was broadside at about 70 yards or so. Double lungs with an exit. The bull turned toward him and he sent another TSX lengthwise through a lung. The buffalo fell over and started death bellowing. The other buffalo didn’t leave so I ran up and shot one of them with my 416. I quickly fired 4 shots into my buffalo, dropping him about 20 yards from first shot to dead. (Yes, I keep shooting until I run out of bullets or buffalo to shoot. Bullets are cheap, shooting is fun and you can never kill a Buffalo ‘too dead’). Anyway, my sons buffalo that was laying nearby and dying when I started shooting decided he didn’t want to die there afterall and he got up and disappeared while I was shooting my Buffalo. Death bellows, huge pool of lung blood on the ground and buffalo was gone. We tracked that buffalo two full kilometers by Gaia GPS measurement before my son shot him again and convinced him he was dead.

Would a bigger gun than 375 have kept him down? Who knows? But I came away convinced that the alertness or lack thereof at the shot does impact how easily a buffalo dies. And I damn sure would not want to follow a wounded buffalo without someone having a rifle that doesn’t start with at least a 4.
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I'm quite intrigued by this.

Scientifically, a heart shot is a heart shot, and a double lung shot is a double lung shot. If the bullet destroys the heart or major vessels, the resulting physiological damage should be essentially the same whether the buffalo knew you were there or not.

I've heard it said many times that a buffalo hit while unaware will supposedly be affected differently, or will be less dangerous, than one that knows it has been hit. But I'm having trouble seeing the physiological mechanism for that. If the bullet lands in exactly the same place and causes exactly the same damage, the animal's awareness of the hunter shouldn't change the wound itself or the resulting blood loss and loss of circulation.

Now, in the case of a wounded buffalo coming at you at full charge, I can see it being very different.
You have a 1,500–2,000 pound animal already in motion, carrying considerable momentum and kinetic energy, coupled with a very high level of aggression. Even if the wound is ultimately fatal, the animal may still have enough momentum and drive to cover a considerable distance before the physiological effects of the wound take over.
 
I don’t know about buffalo, but I’ve shot enough whitetails with a bow to know that a deer that never suspected you were there dies a lot quicker than one that is on edge. IDK why.
 
Tdsmith517 said:
I always thought of the .375H&H as a medium bore rifle. Along with the .350 Rigby, .404 Jeff, .416 Rigby, .425 Westly Richards. They were all designed and chambered in turn of the century Magazine Rifles to fill a similar role. The big doubles were still supposed main Dangerous Game rifles. At least until the advent of the.458 Winchester in the Safari revival era after the closure of Kynoch.
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You know what, me and you may perceive things differently, if you take a consensus of 10 people you will have different opinions and that is fine too. The topic morphed into this discussion i.e 375 is a Big Bore or not, and that is OK as well, however the main discussion point was or is whether one is ok to trade off the safety net of a 458 or higher for a perfect shot from a 375.
 
SStomcat said:
I'm quite intrigued by this.

Scientifically, a heart shot is a heart shot, and a double lung shot is a double lung shot. If the bullet destroys the heart or major vessels, the resulting physiological damage should be essentially the same whether the buffalo knew you were there or not.

I've heard it said many times that a buffalo hit while unaware will supposedly be affected differently, or will be less dangerous, than one that knows it has been hit. But I'm having trouble seeing the physiological mechanism for that. If the bullet lands in exactly the same place and causes exactly the same damage, the animal's awareness of the hunter shouldn't change the wound itself or the resulting blood loss and loss of circulation.

Now, in the case of a wounded buffalo coming at you at full charge, I can see it being very different.
You have a 1,500–2,000 pound animal already in motion, carrying considerable momentum and kinetic energy, coupled with a very high level of aggression. Even if the wound is ultimately fatal, the animal may still have enough momentum and drive to cover a considerable distance before the physiological effects of the wound take over.
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I personally believe it's the release of adrenaline from an animal that is already aware of your presence and is in a defensive posture or disposition.
 
SStomcat said:
You know what, me and you may perceive things differently, if you take a consensus of 10 people you will have different opinions and that is fine too. The topic morphed into this discussion i.e 375 is a Big Bore or not, and that is OK as well, however the main discussion point was or is whether one is ok to trade off the safety net of a 458 or higher for a perfect shot from a 375.
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I wasn’t trying to disagree with you or say that your conclusion was incorrect, sorry if it came across that way. I was just agreeing with @Tanks statement about how he ( and many others) say a true big bore starts at .450 caliber. I would agree with this based on the fact that large bore rifles well above even what’s considered a big bore rifle today were what was originally used to hunt the dangerous game of Africa in the days of black powder. As to the original topic I will stand by what I have said earlier in this thread, a well placed hit with a .375 H&H is going to do a better job than a poor shot with a .500NE. I also think that someone is not going overboard by shooting the largest caliber that they can effectively handle. That doesn’t mean shooting it ok off the sticks a few times. But actually shooting the rifle at close range off hand and manipulating it with efficient, well practiced motions. The .375 H&H often fits this description well because many people can learn to effectively use one because it is much cheaper to buy and shoot one, and much more forgiving on novice and is often a lighter more handy rifle. It is also the legal minimum in many countries so if it’s all that’s “required” and the easiest to use then it’s going to be the most popular. Is it the best? That’s up to the individual. I know many people that shoot Elk with calibers that many would scoff at, but these people are capable woodsmen who get in to reasonable ranges and take only carefully selected shots. Would I make the same choice? No, I will take carefully selected shots at reasonable ranges, but bring enough gun to help in the event that things don’t work perfectly.
 
The bar was set for minimum DGR cartridge a long time ago when the 375 H&H was pushing copper jacketed lead bullets with cordite powder. Now that cartridge can blast out a 300 gr all copper bullet at much greater speeds with the end result being the bullet mushrooms to +40 cal diameter while retaining virtually all its mass and penetrating bone/hide/tissue as well as or better than the double barrel bazookas of old. I believe the minimum caliber could now be dropped below 375 IF hunters were limited to new high tech loads.
 
"however the main discussion point was or is whether one is ok to trade off the safety net of a 458 or higher for a perfect shot from a 375"
Energizer Bunny.JPG


I was wondering when this would come up again... :E Rofl: for the umpteenth time... :ROFLMAO:

OP -- who apparently has not shot the big guns nor hunted DG -- has still not understood, after 9 pages of folks -- who have shot the big guns and who have actually hunted DG -- telling him otherwise, that his basic premise is wrong :E Laugh:

-- for those who can shoot the .45+ well, there is nothing to trade along the lines of power vs accuracy, as the .45+ provides just as accurate a shot as the .375.

-- for those who cannot shoot the .45+, there is nothing to trade along the lines of power vs accuracy, as they MUST go down to .375.

-- for those who can shoot the .45+ well, but who choose, regardless of any stopping power consideration, the .375 for one-rifle safari convenience; of the joy of carrying a lighter rifle in the bush; etc. there is nothing to trade along the lines of power vs accuracy.

It reminds me of public group discussions where the facilitator has no idea what is being discussed and does not realize that people who actually know what they are talking about have long ago dismissed his interventions :A Gathering:

Oh well... :D Drunk:

At least, reading posts from folks who actually understand the discussion is valuable (y)
 
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SStomcat said:
I'm quite intrigued by this.

Scientifically, a heart shot is a heart shot, and a double lung shot is a double lung shot. If the bullet destroys the heart or major vessels, the resulting physiological damage should be essentially the same whether the buffalo knew you were there or not.

I've heard it said many times that a buffalo hit while unaware will supposedly be affected differently, or will be less dangerous, than one that knows it has been hit. But I'm having trouble seeing the physiological mechanism for that. If the bullet lands in exactly the same place and causes exactly the same damage, the animal's awareness of the hunter shouldn't change the wound itself or the resulting blood loss and loss of circulation.

Now, in the case of a wounded buffalo coming at you at full charge, I can see it being very different.
You have a 1,500–2,000 pound animal already in motion, carrying considerable momentum and kinetic energy, coupled with a very high level of aggression. Even if the wound is ultimately fatal, the animal may still have enough momentum and drive to cover a considerable distance before the physiological effects of the wound take over.
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I've heard it said, but don't know if it's true, that it has to do with adrenalin being dumped in the system. I can see it being true when the bull is shot, but it could also be true if he sees you and senses danger. Buffalo in an area where they are hunted are aware that you are up to no good if they see you though they do not always run immediately..
 
Doug Hamilton said:
I've heard it said, but don't know if it's true, that it has to do with adrenalin being dumped in the system. I can see it being true when the bull is shot, but it could also be true if he sees you and senses danger. Buffalo in an area where they are hunted are aware that you are up to no good if they see you.
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You are right Doug, adrenaline it is, just as Mark458 indicated.
It applies just as well to human bodies, hence adrenaline shots used in specific life-threatening conditions by emergency teams.
 
SStomcat said:
Let’s talk about the biggest flaw in dangerous game hunting: the "bigger is always better" mentality. We’ve all seen it a hunter turns up with a massive, shoulder-bruising canon 577, 600, Overkill ..only to develop a terminal case of the flinch and unable to place a shot accurately and recycle.
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I would say in modern times, the "bigger is always better" idea is incredibly rare. Ive spent the last 12 years as an avid member of the "large bore community" and have yet to hear a single person honestly say "bigger is always better" in a manner that wasn't a "straw man" to prop up their own argument for using smaller guns.

Id wager more than 90% of hunters follow the "use the smallest gun legally allowed" philosophy. The 375 H&H is the most popular largely because its the legal minimum. If people were allowed to hunt cape buffalo with a 338 WM, most would.
 
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One Day... said:
"however the main discussion point was or is whether one is ok to trade off the safety net of a 458 or higher for a perfect shot from a 375"
View attachment 797621

I was wondering when this would come up again... :E Rofl: for the umpteenth time... :ROFLMAO:

OP -- who apparently has not shot the big guns nor hunted DG -- has still not understood, after 9 pages of folks -- who have shot the big guns and who have actually hunted DG -- telling him otherwise, that his basic premise is wrong :E Laugh:

-- for those who can shoot the .45+ well, there is nothing to trade along the lines of power vs accuracy, as the .45+ provides just as accurate a shot as the .375.

-- for those who cannot shoot the .45+, there is nothing to trade along the lines of power vs accuracy, as they MUST go down to .375.

-- for those who can shoot the .45+ well, but who choose, regardless of any stopping power consideration, the .375 for one-rifle safari convenience; of the joy of carrying a lighter rifle in the bush; etc. there is nothing to trade along the lines of power vs accuracy.

It reminds me of public group discussions where the facilitator has no idea what is being discussed and does not realize that people who actually know what they are talking about have long ago dismissed his interventions :A Gathering:

Oh well... :D Drunk:

At least, reading posts from folks who actually understand the discussion is valuable (y)
Click to expand...

Sorry, this was not very charitable of me. Apologies :cool:

And to provide a more direct answer, and still remain in the light-hearted register

1791254940479.png
 
One Day... said:
"however the main discussion point was or is whether one is ok to trade off the safety net of a 458 or higher for a perfect shot from a 375"
View attachment 797621

I was wondering when this would come up again... :E Rofl: for the umpteenth time... :ROFLMAO:

OP -- who apparently has not shot the big guns nor hunted DG -- has still not understood, after 9 pages of folks -- who have shot the big guns and who have actually hunted DG -- telling him otherwise, that his basic premise is wrong :E Laugh:

-- for those who can shoot the .45+ well, there is nothing to trade along the lines of power vs accuracy, as the .45+ provides just as accurate a shot as the .375.

-- for those who cannot shoot the .45+, there is nothing to trade along the lines of power vs accuracy, as they MUST go down to .375.

-- for those who can shoot the .45+ well, but who choose, regardless of any stopping power consideration, the .375 for one-rifle safari convenience; of the joy of carrying a lighter rifle in the bush; etc. there is nothing to trade along the lines of power vs accuracy.

It reminds me of public group discussions where the facilitator has no idea what is being discussed and does not realize that people who actually know what they are talking about have long ago dismissed his interventions :A Gathering:

Oh well... :D Drunk:

At least, reading posts from folks who actually understand the discussion is valuable (y)
Click to expand...
Well, I was wondering when the “I’ve actually hunted DG, therefore my opinion automatically wins” card would make another appearance.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall at least a wall has the good sense to stay quiet when it has nothing intelligent to add.
 
SStomcat said:
Well, I was wondering when the “I’ve actually hunted DG, therefore my opinion automatically wins” card would make another appearance.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall. At least a wall has the good sense to stay quiet when it has nothing intelligent to add.
Click to expand...

You are funny :E Rofl:

Hint: count how many people are making the same points ;) I am

And still in the light-hearted register

1791257153961.png
 
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Tdsmith517 said:
I always thought of the .375H&H as a medium bore rifle. Along with the .350 Rigby, .404 Jeff, .416 Rigby, .425 Westly Richards. They were all designed and chambered in turn of the century Magazine Rifles to fill a similar role. The big doubles were still supposed main Dangerous Game rifles. At least until the advent of the.458 Winchester in the Safari revival era after the closure of Kynoch.
Click to expand...
I think the definitions here on medium and large bore harken back to John Pondoro Taylor’s African Rifles and Cartridges. While largely obsolete, it’s still an interesting read today. Some of those guys hunted 1,000s of elephants.

You’ll find that bullets were more proprietary and specific to cartridge back then. Some of the cartridges with good reputations were in part due to better quality bullets, which were still quite poor by today’s standards. All of those cartridges perform better today with the bullets we have.

He was a big fan of the 450/400 and the 375 H&H by the way.
 
My 416 rem mags are my limit on recoil .I can shoot them very good lots of times .I tried bigger it was not for me .I used my 416s 12 years in Alaska perfect size rifle for the biggest bears .
 
matt85 said:
I would say in modern times, the "bigger is always better" idea is incredibly rare. Ive spent the last 12 years as an avid member of the "large bore community" and have yet to hear a single person honestly say "bigger is always better" in a manner that wasn't a "straw man" to prop up their own argument for using smaller guns.

Id wager more than 90% of hunters follow the "use the smallest gun legally allowed" philosophy. The 375 H&H is the most popular largely because its the legal minimum. If people were allowed to hunt cape buffalo with a 338 WM, most would.
Click to expand...
Having shot a buffalo with my 338 and watching it go 30 yards and tip over, it definitely works IF you’re using a top quality bullet and put the first shot in the right place. BUT, I’ll never forget my thought when we dug my first bullet, a 225 grain North Fork solid, out of the offside shoulder. My immediate thought was of what a really small bullet that was for a buffalo. Like REALLY SMALL bullet. I’m not sure I’d recommend it for everyone and while I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot another with my 338, I’ll be going back to carrying my 416 Hoffman on most future buffalo hunts.

But, It did work really well on this buffalo!
IMG_6633.jpeg
 
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Flipper Dude said:
I don’t know about buffalo, but I’ve shot enough whitetails with a bow to know that a deer that never suspected you were there dies a lot quicker than one that is on edge. IDK why.
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I suspect part of the answer is that an animal on edge will often cause the hunter to be a bit on edge - maybe rushing the shot a bit, or not being as patient for a great shot presentation. There might be more to it.....

Calm animals also don't know where you are, and sometimes hang around for the time it takes to tip over. Animals watching a threat are already primed to run away from the thing they were worried about.
 
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