The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

SStomcat said:

A .375 with a solid for the Tiny Ten? Nothing quite says subtle and proportionate like bringing a buffalo rifle to something that weighs less than the rifle itself.

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AZDAVE said:

1. Proper shot placement is the most important aspect.
2. Properly fitted rifle.
3. Shot as big a rifle as you can shoot accurately 100% of the time.
4. Understand your strengths and weakness as a shooter/hunter and know when to walk away from a shot.
5. Show up in shape for the hunt!!!!!!!!!, doesn't do you or the PH team any good if you can stay on track for the duration of the hunt.
6. enjoy the experience first and foremost.

I have shot big bore since i was a young lad. Everyone's recoil tolerance is different. some folks top out at the wicked recoil of a 30/06 and others at 4 bore.

There has been many different threads where we have discussed recoil management, proper shot placement on all of the worlds game at length. So read them as you prepare for your DG hunt.

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DLSJR said:

Before I post my own thoughts I have to reply to AZDAVE’s post, as it made me smile. I recently finished a very enjoyable buffalo hunt that checked all those boxes, except for #3. Instead of using the biggest rifle I shoot accurately , which would be a 470, I showed up with the smallest caliber rifle with which I’ve ever intentionally hunted buffalo. So, using Dave’s schedule…
#1Yes I shot him very well with first shot, and 2nd shot and 3rd shot, all of which were fired in 11 seconds total. Buffalo went 30 yards from first shot to dead. Woulda been faster but the grass was tall and couldn’t see him good after first shot.
#2 yes my rifle fits me like an extension of my arm. And I’m on my 2nd barrel with this gun. 41 years hunting with it.
#3, NOPE - it was my .338 win mag, shooting 225 grain Northfork solids and Barnes TTSX.
#4, I was fully prepared to let any buffalo walk unless I got a good shot angle. Lone Dugga Boy, completely unaware of us and relaxed. First shot was about 50-60 yards, quartering away to left side, left leg forward at the shot. Bullet, a solid, got left lung, top of heart and lodged in right shoulder.
#5, we walked 7-10 miles each day, mostly in sand rivers so it was a good workout for all.
#6, I enjoyed it immensely! I’ve always wanted to shoot a Buffalo with my .338, but next time it’ll be back to my .416 which really is a lot more appropriate for Buffalo. .416 is my usual ‘Go-To’ for buffalo, though I’ve also used .375 H&H, .458 Win Mag & 470 NE. I won’t intentionally shoot another buffalo with my .338, but wouldn’t hesitate to shoot another if it’s what is in my hands and we bump into a bull I want.

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One Day... said:

For sure, "bring enough gun"
But let us add "do not bring more gun than you can shoot well"
And "bring the gun you like" (PS as long as it is legal)

1- The issue with the argument "just make sure your first shot counts" -- which is a solid recommendation -- is that often enough the first shot actually does kill clinically, but the DG is still ambulatory enough to do damage. There is so much evidence of DG charging with a perforated heart and collapsed lungs that I do not expect this point to be challenged.

And occasionally a first shot hits a branch; or the animal moves as the sear breaks; etc. etc. or God forbid !!! the shooting is not perfect

So, doing one's best to not cause of wounded DG situation is the right approach, one I practice myself, but the outcomes remains an act of faith.


2- The issue with the argument "any caliber will brain an Ele or Buff and this will stop the charge" is that a Ele or Buff brain is a lot smaller a target and a lot more difficult to hit on a charging bull than a full head.

There is ton of documentary evidence, and entire books were written by folks who killed more DG than any of us will ever encounter, with more calibers than any of us will ever own (e.g. Taylor) that a larger "stopper" caliber (.45+) can damage or stun a charging DG enough to buy a few seconds for a more final shot. I also do not expect this point to be challenged.


3- So, in the end, the question is not whether one trades a "cannon bruise" for a "laser-like hit" with a .375 because this is a false dichotomy: a .458 in the right hands is just as accurate as a .375. The question comes back, as previously discussed, to personal abilities, personal beliefs, and personal choice.

Some believe they will shoot well enough that they will never wound; some prefer a one-rifle safari approach; some dislike heavy recoil; some dislike carrying heavy guns; etc. etc. and on the other end, some are not bothered by the weight and recoil of a stopper caliber, and want to be best equipped should things get dicey.

As long as the choice is legal, and I will add, ethical in respect to the animal and the potential danger it causes to PH & trackers, this is a personal choice.

Certainly, the wisdom has long been established (the "bottom lines" I was proposing earlier):
-- make the first shot count;
-- shoot a caliber you can reliably shoot;
-- do not confuse killing and stopping;
-- a client's job & gun are different from a PH's job & gun;
-- etc.

And the wisdom has been captured in legal requirements (minimum calibers), as well as famous quotes, "it is the dead ones that kill you"; "bring enough gun"; etc.


4 - The two root causes, I guess, of the discussion we are having, and that has been had many, many times before us today, is that:

• "a man's got to know his limitations" is generally and sadly not included with "bring enough gun", and that translates to "do not bring more gun than you can shoot well"
• "there is more than one way to skin a cat"

I am on the side of "shoot well", "first shot count", "do your best not to wound" etc. and if indeed you cannot shoot a .458 or .416, then you must shoot a .375. And even if you can shoot a "cannon" well, by all means, bring a .375 if you prefer. It is no peashooter, and it is legal and ethical.

I personally think that IF YOU CAN shoot a 40+ or 45+ caliber well on DG you have an edge on TIA, and both historic and current PHs choices place me in a comfortable vast majority. Darn close to unanimity, actually. I respect this entourage

But IF YOU CANNOT shoot a 40+ or 45+ caliber well on DG, like my wife for example, it does not make you a lesser hunter or human being, and going down to a .375 is not a choice or a trade, it is an absolute necessity. Or, as in her case, even going down to a 9.3x62 is the right decision.

And if you can shoot a 40+ or 45+ caliber well on DG but you PREFER a .375, by all means have it your way, it does not bother me in the slightest, and it certainly does not irritate me, but do not distort the reality that a stopping rifle is a not myth, or that it can be shot accurately

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Mark458 said:

Congratulations on a great hunt. On my hunt in August I had my 338 for PG and my PH said if we run into a big bull don't hesitate to shoot it with the 338. Shot and angle need to be perfect, but it can get the job done. It just offers very little if any margin for error.

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DLSJR said:

Before I post my own thoughts I have to reply to AZDAVE’s post, as it made me smile. I recently finished a very enjoyable buffalo hunt that checked all those boxes, except for #3. Instead of using the biggest rifle I shoot accurately , which would be a 470, I showed up with the smallest caliber rifle with which I’ve ever intentionally hunted buffalo. So, using Dave’s schedule…
#1Yes I shot him very well with first shot, and 2nd shot and 3rd shot, all of which were fired in 11 seconds total. Buffalo went 30 yards from first shot to dead. Woulda been faster but the grass was tall and couldn’t see him good after first shot.
#2 yes my rifle fits me like an extension of my arm. And I’m on my 2nd barrel with this gun. 41 years hunting with it.
#3, NOPE - it was my .338 win mag, shooting 225 grain Northfork solids and Barnes TTSX.
#4, I was fully prepared to let any buffalo walk unless I got a good shot angle. Lone Dugga Boy, completely unaware of us and relaxed. First shot was about 50-60 yards, quartering away to left side, left leg forward at the shot. Bullet, a solid, got left lung, top of heart and lodged in right shoulder.
#5, we walked 7-10 miles each day, mostly in sand rivers so it was a good workout for all.
#6, I enjoyed it immensely! I’ve always wanted to shoot a Buffalo with my .338, but next time it’ll be back to my .416 which really is a lot more appropriate for Buffalo. .416 is my usual ‘Go-To’ for buffalo, though I’ve also used .375 H&H, .458 Win Mag & 470 NE. I won’t intentionally shoot another buffalo with my .338, but wouldn’t hesitate to shoot another if it’s what is in my hands and we bump into a bull I want.

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Red Leg said:

As usual we are close in agreement. I absolutely concur that a .375 is not a "stopping rifle." But neither is a 400 gr bullet from a .416 or .404. A 500 gr from a .458 Lott might be one, though I still think you better hit that brain. A 570 gr bullet from a 500 certainly is one, but as we reach the 500's it becomes ever trickier to make that exact first shot which solves everything without this debate.

I am a fan of Sir Walter Scott, and chapter 27 of "The Talisman" has the famous if apocryphal meeting between Richard the Lionheart and Sultan Saladin where they compare their weapons.

‘Had I not,’ said Saladin, ‘seen this brand flaming in the front of battle, like that of Azrael, I had scarce believed that human arm could wield it. Might I request to see the Melech Ric strike one blow with it in peace, and in pure trial of strength?’
‘Willingly, noble Saladin,’ answered Richard; and looking around for something whereon to exercise his strength, he saw a steel mace held by one of the attendants, the handle being of the same metal, and about an inch and a half in diameter. This he placed on a block of wood.
The anxiety of De Vaux for his master’s honour led him to whisper in English, ‘For the blessed Virgin’s sake, beware what you attempt, my liege! Your full strength is not as yet returned, give no triumph to the infidel.’
‘Peace, fool!’ said Richard, standing firm on his ground, and casting a fierce glance around; ‘thinkest thou that I can fail in his presence?’
The glittering broadsword, wielded by both his hands, rose aloft to the King’s left shoulder, circled round his head, descended with the sway of some terrific engine, and the bar of iron rolled on the ground in two pieces, as a woodsman would sever a sapling with a hedging-bill.
‘By the head of the Prophet, a most wonderful blow!’ said the Soldan, critically and accurately examining the iron bar which had been cut asunder; and the blade of the sword was so well tempered as to exhibit not the least token of having suffered by the feat it had performed. He then took the King’s hand, and looking on the size and muscular strength which it exhibited, laughed as he placed it beside his own, so lank and thin, so inferior in brawn and sinew.
‘Ay, look well,’ said De Vaux in English, ‘it will be long ere your long jackanape’s fingers do such a feat with your fine gilded reaping-hook there.’
‘Silence, De Vaux,’ said Richard; ‘by Our Lady, he understands or guesses thy meaning, be not so broad, I pray thee.’
The Soldan, indeed, presently said, ‘Something I would fain attempt, though wherefore should the weak show their inferiority in presence of the strong? Yet each land hath its own exercises, and this may be new to the Melech Ric’. So saying, he took from the floor a cushion of silk and down, and placed it upright on one end. ‘Can thy weapon, my brother, sever that cushion?’ he said to King Richard.
‘No, surely,’ replied the King; ‘no sword on earth, were it the Excalibur of King Arthur, can cut that which opposes no steady resistance to the blow.’
‘Mark, then,’ said Saladin; and tucking up the sleeve of his gown, showed his arm, thin indeed and spare, but which constant exercise had hardened into a mass consisting of nought but bone, brawn, and sinew. He unsheathed his scimitar, a curved and narrow blade, which glittered not like the swords of the Franks, but was, on the contrary, of a dull blue colour, marked with ten millions of meandering lines, which showed how anxiously the metal had been welded by the armourer. Wielding this weapon, apparently so inefficient when compared to that of Richard, the Soldan stood resting his weight upon his left foot, which was slightly advanced; he balanced himself a little, as if to steady his aim; then stepping at once forward, drew the scimitar across the cushion, applying the edge so dexterously, and with so little apparent effort, that the cushion seemed rather to fall asunder than to be divided by violence.
‘It is a juggler’s trick,’ said De Vaux, darting forward and snatching up the portion of the cushion which had been cut off, as if to assure himself of the reality of the feat; ‘there is gramarye in this.’
The Soldan seemed to comprehend him, for he undid the sort of veil which he had hitherto worn, laid it double along the edge of his sabre, extended the weapon edgeways in the air, and drawing it suddenly through the veil, although it hung on the blade entirely loose, severed that also into two parts, which floated to different sides of the tent, equally displaying the extreme temper and sharpness of the weapon, and the exquisite dexterity of him who used it.

Rapier (or in this case scimitar) or broadsword. While I keep hearing of these buffalo shot through the heart that get up and charge or being forced to track a double lunged one for miles while he sets up an ambush, I have yet to meet one. Both can be absolutely lethal and both equally can cause a very long afternoon.

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Red Leg said:

It is often considered a perfect choice for eland, which though admittedly wired differently, still may weigh 500 lbs more than that dugga boy.

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Mark458 said:

Both are big animals, but buffalo definitely built different. Eland are the big bullies on the playground that that go down as soon as you punch em in the nose. Buffalo are the bad asses that keep getting more pissed the more you hit em. Adrenaline by the gallon.

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Red Leg said:

As usual we are close in agreement. I absolutely concur that a .375 is not a "stopping rifle." But neither is a 400 gr bullet from a .416 or .404. A 500 gr from a .458 Lott might be one, though I still think for your wife's sake, you better hit that brain. A 570 gr bullet from a 500 certainly is one, but as we reach the 500's it becomes ever trickier to make that exact first shot which solves everything without this debate.

I keep hearing of these buffalo shot through the heart that get up and charge or being forced to track a double lunged one for miles while he sets up an ambush. I have yet to meet one.

I am a fan of Sir Walter Scott, and chapter 27 of "The Talisman" has the famous if apocryphal meeting between Richard the Lionheart and Sultan Saladin where they compare their weapons. Apologies to those unwilling to wade through 19th century prose. But it isn't much longer than one of @One Day... 's posts.

‘Had I not,’ said Saladin, ‘seen this brand flaming in the front of battle, like that of Azrael, I had scarce believed that human arm could wield it. Might I request to see the Melech Ric strike one blow with it in peace, and in pure trial of strength?’
‘Willingly, noble Saladin,’ answered Richard; and looking around for something whereon to exercise his strength, he saw a steel mace held by one of the attendants, the handle being of the same metal, and about an inch and a half in diameter. This he placed on a block of wood.
The anxiety of De Vaux for his master’s honour led him to whisper in English, ‘For the blessed Virgin’s sake, beware what you attempt, my liege! Your full strength is not as yet returned, give no triumph to the infidel.’
‘Peace, fool!’ said Richard, standing firm on his ground, and casting a fierce glance around; ‘thinkest thou that I can fail in his presence?’
The glittering broadsword, wielded by both his hands, rose aloft to the King’s left shoulder, circled round his head, descended with the sway of some terrific engine, and the bar of iron rolled on the ground in two pieces, as a woodsman would sever a sapling with a hedging-bill.
‘By the head of the Prophet, a most wonderful blow!’ said the Soldan, critically and accurately examining the iron bar which had been cut asunder; and the blade of the sword was so well tempered as to exhibit not the least token of having suffered by the feat it had performed. He then took the King’s hand, and looking on the size and muscular strength which it exhibited, laughed as he placed it beside his own, so lank and thin, so inferior in brawn and sinew.
‘Ay, look well,’ said De Vaux in English, ‘it will be long ere your long jackanape’s fingers do such a feat with your fine gilded reaping-hook there.’
‘Silence, De Vaux,’ said Richard; ‘by Our Lady, he understands or guesses thy meaning, be not so broad, I pray thee.’
The Soldan, indeed, presently said, ‘Something I would fain attempt, though wherefore should the weak show their inferiority in presence of the strong? Yet each land hath its own exercises, and this may be new to the Melech Ric’. So saying, he took from the floor a cushion of silk and down, and placed it upright on one end. ‘Can thy weapon, my brother, sever that cushion?’ he said to King Richard.
‘No, surely,’ replied the King; ‘no sword on earth, were it the Excalibur of King Arthur, can cut that which opposes no steady resistance to the blow.’
‘Mark, then,’ said Saladin; and tucking up the sleeve of his gown, showed his arm, thin indeed and spare, but which constant exercise had hardened into a mass consisting of nought but bone, brawn, and sinew. He unsheathed his scimitar, a curved and narrow blade, which glittered not like the swords of the Franks, but was, on the contrary, of a dull blue colour, marked with ten millions of meandering lines, which showed how anxiously the metal had been welded by the armourer. Wielding this weapon, apparently so inefficient when compared to that of Richard, the Soldan stood resting his weight upon his left foot, which was slightly advanced; he balanced himself a little, as if to steady his aim; then stepping at once forward, drew the scimitar across the cushion, applying the edge so dexterously, and with so little apparent effort, that the cushion seemed rather to fall asunder than to be divided by violence.
‘It is a juggler’s trick,’ said De Vaux, darting forward and snatching up the portion of the cushion which had been cut off, as if to assure himself of the reality of the feat; ‘there is gramarye in this.’
The Soldan seemed to comprehend him, for he undid the sort of veil which he had hitherto worn, laid it double along the edge of his sabre, extended the weapon edgeways in the air, and drawing it suddenly through the veil, although it hung on the blade entirely loose, severed that also into two parts, which floated to different sides of the tent, equally displaying the extreme temper and sharpness of the weapon, and the exquisite dexterity of him who used it.

Rapier (or in this case scimitar) or broadsword. Both can be absolutely lethal and both equally can cause a very long afternoon.

Click to expand...

Red Leg said:

As usual we are close in agreement. I absolutely concur that a .375 is not a "stopping rifle." But neither is a 400 gr bullet from a .416 or .404. A 500 gr from a .458 Lott might be one, though I still think for your wife's sake, you better hit that brain. A 570 gr bullet from a 500 certainly is one, but as we reach the 500's it becomes ever trickier to make that exact first shot which solves everything without this debate.

I keep hearing of these buffalo shot through the heart that get up and charge or being forced to track a double lunged one for miles while he sets up an ambush. I have yet to meet one.

I am a fan of Sir Walter Scott, and chapter 27 of "The Talisman" has the famous if apocryphal meeting between Richard the Lionheart and Sultan Saladin where they compare their weapons. Apologies to those unwilling to wade through 19th century prose. But it isn't much longer than one of @One Day... 's posts.

‘Had I not,’ said Saladin, ‘seen this brand flaming in the front of battle, like that of Azrael, I had scarce believed that human arm could wield it. Might I request to see the Melech Ric strike one blow with it in peace, and in pure trial of strength?’
‘Willingly, noble Saladin,’ answered Richard; and looking around for something whereon to exercise his strength, he saw a steel mace held by one of the attendants, the handle being of the same metal, and about an inch and a half in diameter. This he placed on a block of wood.
The anxiety of De Vaux for his master’s honour led him to whisper in English, ‘For the blessed Virgin’s sake, beware what you attempt, my liege! Your full strength is not as yet returned, give no triumph to the infidel.’
‘Peace, fool!’ said Richard, standing firm on his ground, and casting a fierce glance around; ‘thinkest thou that I can fail in his presence?’
The glittering broadsword, wielded by both his hands, rose aloft to the King’s left shoulder, circled round his head, descended with the sway of some terrific engine, and the bar of iron rolled on the ground in two pieces, as a woodsman would sever a sapling with a hedging-bill.
‘By the head of the Prophet, a most wonderful blow!’ said the Soldan, critically and accurately examining the iron bar which had been cut asunder; and the blade of the sword was so well tempered as to exhibit not the least token of having suffered by the feat it had performed. He then took the King’s hand, and looking on the size and muscular strength which it exhibited, laughed as he placed it beside his own, so lank and thin, so inferior in brawn and sinew.
‘Ay, look well,’ said De Vaux in English, ‘it will be long ere your long jackanape’s fingers do such a feat with your fine gilded reaping-hook there.’
‘Silence, De Vaux,’ said Richard; ‘by Our Lady, he understands or guesses thy meaning, be not so broad, I pray thee.’
The Soldan, indeed, presently said, ‘Something I would fain attempt, though wherefore should the weak show their inferiority in presence of the strong? Yet each land hath its own exercises, and this may be new to the Melech Ric’. So saying, he took from the floor a cushion of silk and down, and placed it upright on one end. ‘Can thy weapon, my brother, sever that cushion?’ he said to King Richard.
‘No, surely,’ replied the King; ‘no sword on earth, were it the Excalibur of King Arthur, can cut that which opposes no steady resistance to the blow.’
‘Mark, then,’ said Saladin; and tucking up the sleeve of his gown, showed his arm, thin indeed and spare, but which constant exercise had hardened into a mass consisting of nought but bone, brawn, and sinew. He unsheathed his scimitar, a curved and narrow blade, which glittered not like the swords of the Franks, but was, on the contrary, of a dull blue colour, marked with ten millions of meandering lines, which showed how anxiously the metal had been welded by the armourer. Wielding this weapon, apparently so inefficient when compared to that of Richard, the Soldan stood resting his weight upon his left foot, which was slightly advanced; he balanced himself a little, as if to steady his aim; then stepping at once forward, drew the scimitar across the cushion, applying the edge so dexterously, and with so little apparent effort, that the cushion seemed rather to fall asunder than to be divided by violence.
‘It is a juggler’s trick,’ said De Vaux, darting forward and snatching up the portion of the cushion which had been cut off, as if to assure himself of the reality of the feat; ‘there is gramarye in this.’
The Soldan seemed to comprehend him, for he undid the sort of veil which he had hitherto worn, laid it double along the edge of his sabre, extended the weapon edgeways in the air, and drawing it suddenly through the veil, although it hung on the blade entirely loose, severed that also into two parts, which floated to different sides of the tent, equally displaying the extreme temper and sharpness of the weapon, and the exquisite dexterity of him who used it.

Rapier (or in this case scimitar) or broadsword. Both can be absolutely lethal and both equally can cause a very long afternoon.

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Betterinthebush said:

Buffalo with a .338 WM, I’ve always wondered about this very scenario. I’ve dreamt of being the first to write on this project. I’m glad to say if I’m only the second, I still have a long way to go.

Thanks for your candid writing.

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Red Leg said:

acknowledged they are different. But, adrenaline disappears with a properly placed bullet. I keep hearing of these buffalo "shot through the heart" that then get up and charge. Or the bull that was "double lunged" or "shot through the chest" that goes for a mile to set up a carefully planned ambush.

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Red Leg said:

It is often considered a perfect choice for eland, which though admittedly wired differently, still may weigh 500 lbs more than that dugga boy.

Click to expand...