Case annealing and neck tension

LeftySixgun said:

Thanks Bob, I’ve got it set about 3/4 of a turn total after touching the shell holder. I’ll crimp one tomorrow and then pull it and check for a ring in the bullet. I do know that the collet is NOT closed up fully where I have it set right now.

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@LeftySixgun
Half to 3/4 turn should be just about spot on. That's all I use.
Bob

If you look at the top of the Lee die, you can see the 4 sections of the collet close as you pull the handle down on the press. If you see the gap between them disappear, you've probably put WAY to much crimp on the case. In my experience, only cast lead bullets in what were originally black powder cartridges should get that much crimp. Jacketed bullets maybe around half that much, or 50% of the gap should disappear and you should have moderate pressure on the press handle.

As with most reloading, just less than spark plug tight will do. If you feel the need for impact wrench tight, you're probably doing it wrong.

When you set up the die in the press, look at the space between those 4 sections of the collet. Set the die up so your press handle bottoms out with no more than about 15 pounds of pressure on the handle, and the gap between the collet sections is at about halfway between open and closed on the case neck.

This will give you a light crimp that stops bullets from being shoved back under recoil, and gives the even start pressure for great accuracy.

LeftySixgun said:

I didn’t want the 375 H&H Virgin case stretch thread to take a tangent. I’m new to the belted magnum cases. Is it a good idea to anneal the case necks on these larger bottle neck cartridges like the 300 & 375 H&H, the 416s…?

Also, is there an ideal amount of neck tension on these larger cases? If so, how much?
I deliberately fired 4-5 rounds while keeping the same single round in the magazine to see if recoil would set the bullet back, and it did! And by a pretty good bit, about .050” if I remember correctly. This was a 300gr RN FMJ by PPU, NO CANNELURE. Do you use a taper crimp die for this issue?

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Greetings. It is good to do annealing, but it is not necessary for large calibers like 375,416 .... It is important that the useful surface of the bullet (bearing surface) is the entire neck. Since the mentioned calibers are shot at shorter distances, only unnecessary attention is paid to the group of hits. If I were you, I would do a crimp because of the greater recoil. If possible, pull the bullet into the neck of the cartridge as long as its diameter, I think that after that there will be no need for crimping

steve white said:

I wonder if you could use the Lee factory crimper on unfired factory ammo just to be sure of neck tension? Any objections?

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You sure could, but it will only fix the crimp. Neck tension will not be affected.

Wyatt Smith said:

You sure could, but it will only fix the crimp. Neck tension will not be affected.

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Then what can be done for FACTORY cartridges which show inconsistent neck tension? I was shocked by an earlier post of how much difference there was while pulling bullets.

steve white said:

Then what can be done for FACTORY cartridges which show inconsistent neck tension? I was shocked by an earlier post of how much difference there was while pulling bullets.

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I guess you’d have to pull bullets, neck size and re-seat.

So what annealer are you gents using that anneal every or every other firing?

Nothing fancy here. I hold the case with my fingers and rotate over torch flame. When neck glows red I drop in a bucket of water.

I found the annealer from EP Integrations to be fairly easy and economical.

Schüler Jumbo said:

Nothing fancy here. I hold the case with my fingers and rotate over torch flame. When neck glows red I drop in a bucket of water.

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It’s all I’ve done for years. The water is not necessary for annealing , but I still do it as once you have accidentally picked up a hot case you will understand why.
Gumpy

Wildwillalaska said:

So what annealer are you gents using that anneal every or every other firing?

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I made up an induction annealing machine from bits bought off Aliexpress & Ebay. Cost me about AU$150. No setup, quick and consistent results. After using other methods for years, there is no going back.

Schüler Jumbo said:

Nothing fancy here. I hold the case with my fingers and rotate over torch flame. When neck glows red I drop in a bucket of water.

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@Schüler Jumbo
If it is glowing red you have just ruined your case by over heating it
I use 700 degree templaq and when that melts it's the right temp. Sure you lose one case but you know exactly how long to anneal for
Bob

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

@Schüler Jumbo
If it is glowing red you have just ruined your case by over heating it
I use 700 degree templaq and when that melts it's the right temp. Sure you lose one case but you know exactly how long to anneal for
Bob

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I use templaq also and have several sizes of deep wall sockets for different calibers, I chuck the socket adapter into a drill insert the case so neck and shoulder exposed, then into the torch flame and drop in water..

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

@Schüler Jumbo
If it is glowing red you have just ruined your case by over heating it
I use 700 degree templaq and when that melts it's the right temp. Sure you lose one case but you know exactly how long to anneal for
Bob

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Actually there’s no worries. Your fingers tell you waaaaaay before that it’s time to drop the case before the case head goes soft.

Still having some issues with my bullets seating deeper under recoil. This is even after using the LEE factory crimp die. Any ideas on how to alleviate this?

An internet search said polish down the expander ball.
Remove the expander ball.
Use a full length bushing die.
Brass could be well used and neck wall getting thin. I guess maybe worn out?

Loading 4 rounds in the rifle, shooting 3, checking with calipers (over the ogive), they are shorter by about .100”

LeftySixgun said:

Still having some issues with my bullets seating deeper under recoil. This is even after using the LEE factory crimp die. Any ideas on how to alleviate this?

An internet search said polish down the expander ball.
Remove the expander ball.
Use a full length bushing die.
Brass could be well used and neck wall getting thin. I guess maybe worn out?

Loading 4 rounds in the rifle, shooting 3, checking with calipers (over the ogive), they are shorter by about .100”

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How are you cleaning your brass? Some have reported that using metal pins cleans the neck too completely and reduces tension or makes it inconsistent. I still use old fashioned corn cob media.

Interesting thread. I too only crimp 404 using my dies. Tension seems to be fairly uniform and pulling bullets with a hammer can be a chore so indication seems to be bullets are staying put, even the old Barnes X with no cannalure. I anneal after every firing and use the finger sensing method. Curiously, even after three firings I have not needed to trim the cases. I'm okay with that!

At the range I only loaded one bullet at a time which in hindsight seems to be a mistake. When I get done with coffee at Starbucks, I'll go home and check the OAL of all remaining cartridges from recent Safari two weeks ago. I used the 404 for three animals firing five rounds with fully loaded gun for each animal (plus three singly loaded at range to check zero after reattaching scope). I always check OAL after every cartridge is loaded in press. For some reason my dies are not seating bullets consistently. Variation is not significant but I wanted consistency anyway. Usually the bullets if incorrect OAL are seated a bit too deeply. A whack or two with hammer and careful checking with caliper brings them out to where Barnes says they should be. So if I see any variation in any cartridge OAL now, I will know I need to look into another method of crimping.

Any ideas what could cause inconsistent bullet seating? All cases are individually checked for length before reloading. I rarely see this when checking OAL of my 30-06 reloads. Possibly something to do with thicker bullets in dies? I'm loading Barnes TSX 400 gr and using CH dies. 30-06 are loaded with 168 gr Barnes TTSX and RCBS dies.

Edit: Checked all remaining loaded 404 cartridges and only one had significantly shorter OAL. It is 0.0125" short. Curiously, the bullet is still seated so high that almost all the cannelure is still exposed. Interesting. I'll see if I can caliper comparative bullet lengths of above cannelures. Seems to be consistent. Case length is correct too. It's a mystery but I'm pretty sure recoil is not to blame.

LeftySixgun said:

Still having some issues with my bullets seating deeper under recoil. This is even after using the LEE factory crimp die. Any ideas on how to alleviate this?

An internet search said polish down the expander ball.
Remove the expander ball.
Use a full length bushing die.
Brass could be well used and neck wall getting thin. I guess maybe worn out?

Loading 4 rounds in the rifle, shooting 3, checking with calipers (over the ogive), they are shorter by about .100”

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What bullet or bullets are you having issues with? Some designs I think are just going to have some movement no matter what if they knock against the front of the box magazine 3-4 times. On doubles is where I’ve have issues in the past…but that’s with recoil having the heavy bullets nose outward and can lodge in the lands if not careful. The C4H taper crimp solved that issue entirely for me. I do always double check new bullets I’m trying, where I leave one in the right barrel and fire three in the left, then note for any movement.

With the bolt guns…repeated hard taps to the nose has same but opposite force applied. Some bullets are more prone I think.

Ideally you want you case neck to be .002 to .003 smaller than your bullet.
I think some brass just doesn’t have enough elasticity to hold bullets well, perhaps anealling is the solution but I’ve never tried it.
Measure your expander and bullets and see what the difference is.

So when I was packing to leave Botswana after the 2nd half of my elephant hunt this April/May, I was pulling cartridges from my belt and looking over the bullets. I was shocked how few I’d used over the almost 3-weeks.

I had brained my bull with a Hydro and then the insurance shot was a Swift Breakaway solid, which were loaded and carried that way throughout the hunt. We were super close tight to the bull when I shot and it was that textbook trunk flings up as the entire body collapses strait down. We were so close that it was literally walk around and kneel to put the insurance shot in…no quick reload as I’d practiced over and over so many times…which I will always continue to practice for regardless.

So anyway I didn’t have any rounds that had undergone the recoil force to inspect.

HOWEVER…upon pulling three swift breakaways from my belt, I noticed they were all short with the bullets pushed back into the cases…way more than 0.100 too. This Swift Solids have a cool/weird design with a sort of shoulder at the ogive, but zero crimp grove of any kind. From the bearing surface forward they just keep tapering smaller at a slight angle to the cupped nose. So if there is my force to the nose of the bullet, they can slide back into the case much easier than any other bullet design I shoot. With these big NE cases where we use a foam wad to fill the extra space with some powders…the Swift solids seem prone to sliding back. I’d tested the taper crimps at the range, having the same cartridge undergo the force of 3-4 firings two different times and the bullet never nosed out at all…but force like you have from the magazine pushing backward…they easily move.

What did it to each of those cases was me…thumbing them into the belt each time I grabbed it from the cruiser to put it on or head to my cabin. The three that nosed in were the ones on the left outer edge of the belt, and they set just slightly more proud, so I was always just giving them a nudge when I grabbed the belt to make sure they weren’t going to fall out as I put it on. I didn’t notice when I changed from Zim to Bots, but the same bullets went back into my belt in the same order, so somewhere along the way I finally thumbed them enough times or enough force to push the bullets back into the case. They taper so much that I was able to pull them most the way out with my fingers, seating back into the crimp with pulling hammer once home.

I was just shocked at how easily that particular design slid back though. Having a grove to crimp into would easily solve it…had zero issues with the CEB and Hydros.