458JCE & the B&M Super Shorts

@michael458 I’m curious to read your thoughts on a similar short DG cartridge
Do you see the last 3 NUMBERS in my name? 4 5 8! What is not to like about .458 caliber? Magic begins at .458 .............

I have heard of the Vincent, but can't recall the particulars of the cartridge. I can tell you my thoughts are I would be using a 450 #13 Solid instead of any 500 gr, and 2300-2400 fps is more than enough with that to do anything you would want. I would use its matching 420 Raptor to knock buffalo out. Then maybe if going plains game hunting the 250 Raptor at around 3000 fps or so. Can't do any better than that........ Oh and if the barrel is 24 inches, I'd whack that down to around 20 at least.... LOL

Never met a .458 I didn't like..... but not all suit my particulars of course.
 
Gday
I reckon you would have scientifically tested more large-calibre bullets than anyone else (except maybe michael458) on the planet. Thanks for the info on the .510 bullets (y)
I can tell you once you get into the depths of what @michael458 has tested on this big bore stuff , let’s say I’m still working on opening the door lol
But I’ve got him on the rat calibers
With the 375 a certainty lol

Enjoy your hunt with your son , looking forward to hearing about it
Cheers
 
I am enjoying this thread. Owning a 458 B&M and 458 B&MSS I am shooting them and enjoy every range trip. I have to be careful as my wife adopted the 416 WSM I had. so far she hasn't shot either of the B&M's.

Michael that #1 has a nice look to it!
 
Indeed it is so, and lots of nice flat rugs I see above..........

Some of you know, but I suffer from Macular Degeneration, leaky blood vessels in my eyes. I get regular injections to hold it back. In May of 2024 I suffered a leakage which caused a grayish, wavy, blind spot in the right eye, center left. Anytime before, after some injections it would clear up, but not this time, it is permanent. I am right handed as well, and try as I might, I cannot shoot rifles left handed, arms and hands are stupid, they do not know what to do or how to do it. So I was screwed until last fall, when I finally discovered I could mount a Red Dot type sight high, tilt the rifle to the left on my right side, catch the sight with my left eye, which is still functional at this time. I don't care for just Red Dots, very partial to Circle Dots. Even before the eye issue I used a lot of the Vortex Spitfire sights, green or red circle dots, and is etched into the glass, so even if the batteries go dead (which I have never had one do that) then you still had a black sight.

Believe me, I have been busy since last fall figuring out how to make this work for me. I have set up several semi guns to suit my requirements, and now a few bolt guns and lever guns as well. I am very happy that I can at least get back to shooting semi normal anyway. Which brings me to this, one of the bolt guns I wanted to be able to shoot is my Earth Tone 458 Super Short. I put a Votex on it, and I am almost ashamed to show it to you it is so stupid looking, but it allows me to be able to shoot right hand, left eye. Believe me, as stupid as it looks, I love being back in the game.................so I am happy as a pig rolling in dung..........

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I think @Bob Nelson 35Whelen knows Ted Mitchell who lost an eye or at least vision in his shooting eye & changed all his stocks over so he could shoot with his other eye ?

I remember some of it but I’m sure he can fill us in on that ?

I’m not sure but I remember a hunter lost his vision or eye when a bungee broke when tiring a load down, I’m always shy of them even now !!

 
I think @Bob Nelson 35Whelen knows Ted Mitchell who lost an eye or at least vision in his shooting eye & changed all his stocks over so he could shoot with his other eye ?

I remember some of it but I’m sure he can fill us in on that ?

I’m not sure but I remember a hunter lost his vision or eye when a bungee broke when tiring a load down, I’m always shy of them even now !!

Yeah Sarge,
Ted lost his right eye in a bungee cord incident at Bunnings. He has special cut-away stocks to shoot right-handed using his left eye.
I've got a photo of Ted and me with some dead pigs somewhere - he was using a 257WBY with his special stock - I'll put it up when I find it.
 
Do you see the last 3 NUMBERS in my name? 4 5 8! What is not to like about .458 caliber? Magic begins at .458 .............

I have heard of the Vincent, but can't recall the particulars of the cartridge. I can tell you my thoughts are I would be using a 450 #13 Solid instead of any 500 gr, and 2300-2400 fps is more than enough with that to do anything you would want. I would use its matching 420 Raptor to knock buffalo out. Then maybe if going plains game hunting the 250 Raptor at around 3000 fps or so. Can't do any better than that........ Oh and if the barrel is 24 inches, I'd whack that down to around 20 at least.... LOL

Never met a .458 I didn't like..... but not all suit my particulars of course.
You’re in good company, Michael, as both Alan Vincent and his dad Roy have always preferred .458 caliber DG rifles, though Roy’s was a 460 Weatherby. They both have/had 500 NE doubles but almost always carried their .458 caliber bolt guns instead.

Of course, our friend Saeed thinks his .375’s are more than enough! :ROFLMAO:
 
I think @Bob Nelson 35Whelen knows Ted Mitchell who lost an eye or at least vision in his shooting eye & changed all his stocks over so he could shoot with his other eye ?

I remember some of it but I’m sure he can fill us in on that ?

I’m not sure but I remember a hunter lost his vision or eye when a bungee broke when tiring a load down, I’m always shy of them even now !!

@Sarg
Yes I know Ted very well
He lost an eye when the end of a bungee cord smacked into it.
Initially he used to hollow out a big piece of stock to get his head low enough. Then he discovered cross over stocks from the USA. They were a real game changer for him.
Bob
 
I was in camp with both Roy and Alan in 2010, Roy was using a .458 chambering,
maybe a .450 Ackley, and Alan was in his DR phase, Heym, IIRC,
but one of those Vincent wildcats was in the rifle rack, and I think it was the Short, IIRC.
I did not take notes.

The 450 Vincent Short and Long cartridges are 404 Jeffery based,
much like the 450 G&A and 460 G&A.

The remarkable ballistics have to be throating related primarily,
much like the .458 WIN MAG versus the .458 Lott-O-BS.
 
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Gday Bob
@Sarg
Yes I know Ted very well
He lost an eye when the end of a bungee cord smacked into it.
Initially he used to hollow out a big piece of stock to get his head low enough. Then he discovered cross over stocks from the USA. They were a real game changer for him.
Bob

I mentioned to Michael sometime ago about Ted but I didn’t know about crossover stocks so would you have picture as might be useful for a few or a link if possible where you can get them
Cheers
 

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I reckon it wood be from a custom maker and carefully fitted to individual.
 
You’re in good company, Michael,
Well of Course...... I learned a long time ago, you surround yourself with the best of people, good things rub off on you! I don't hang with dumbasses..... HEH........ I mean look above, @Riflecrank and I have been pals for getting well past 15 years now, and approaching 20. And many other fine folks to boot..... No, time is too short to waste it on stupid people.

I mentioned to Michael sometime ago about Ted but I didn’t know about crossover stocks so would you have picture as might be useful for a few or a link if possible where you can get them
Yep, Fordy and a couple of other pals have offered that solution in the past, and it is a good one no doubt about it, especially for the fellow with just a few rifles that needed to be altered. My problem is I might have a few dozen! LOL...... Hell I am having a hard time picking which ones I want to set up that I can shoot now, and there is little to no altercations to the rifle itself. Most of what I have been working with is my "Zombie" guns... you know, those evil black semi guns. Now moving that to some select few big bore bolt guns, a few lever guns, and yes even a few Single shots, been working on a favorite Ruger #1 in 50 B&M AK just the last couple of weeks......... Will post some photos when I get it sorted out.....

I see shotguns mentioned, I am not much of a shotgun sort of chap, but I did set one up that I could shoot just in the last few weeks......... Here's my idea of a Shotgun..... of course shooting slugs......

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Little more than a year ago my Son Mark David figured a shotgun would solve my shooting and eye issues.......... Well, I think that was BS, I think he wanted these shotguns, so he conned me into it. I said OK, we will stock up on these, so I bought 4 of them, one for Mark David, one for the other son Matthew, one for me, and one spare for the whatever might come along...........

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Did not really float my boat or do much for me until recently adding that Vortex Spitfire, now its more suitable for me.......Nice for a shotgun I suppose.......... Still not as handy and easy to deal with as my 458 B&M Super Short........



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I am afraid that we have strayed a bit off course from the beginning.... 45JCE/B&M Super Shorts.... ok with me, not a worry, great discussion on several factors.......all good fun.......

I think the one I have not spent much time on is the 475 B&M Super Short.... .474 caliber. Along with its two brothers, 50 and 458, it actually is a good little cartridge. But here is the kick on it, it does not do anything that the .500 or the .458 can't do. I had no plans to actually do this or the larger 475 B&M, but I had pretty much ran the B&M course, and some lively chaps, much like many of you guys, wanted me to do the .474s...... well, OK, so off we go......... and that is really how they came about.

One issue with the .474s, there are not a lot of suitable, viable bullets for either cartridge. Remember, the 2.240---2.250 RUM has the same or close case capacity to a 458 Winchester, and this size case begs for 450 gr bullets. Well, there are not many, if any, commercially available 450s in .474 that I know of, but I have not looked at them in 10+ years either. And for the Super Short .474, there was basically nothing, a few .475 caliber pistol type bullets which is fun, but of no real consequence. So for both cartridges, I turned to Cutting Edge and North Fork once again and we came up with some very serious extreme bullets for both cartridges. We will not worry with the larger 475 B&M right now, but I do not like it, anyone that wants one gets steered to the 458 B&M, and I own all three of the ones that have been built. Now I can go further and deeper, but that is off topic for the Super Shorts.... at least in this post.

For the .474 Super Short I had CEB do a 350 gr #13 Solid, and matching 320 Raptor....... In the early days of CEB, the Name Raptor had not been conceived and we used Non-Con, short for Non-Conventional.

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Over on the North Fork side of things John and I came up with a 375 North Fork Solid and a matching 375 Expanding CPS. This was Pre-Newer Profile, and I was not so enthusiastic once the new profile came on line, that I did not do the new profile for either of the B&M .474s.

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I gave the first rifle built to Mark David back in 2012, he was very successful with it on Paul's Aussie buffalo and pigs using both CEB and NF bullets.

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The little rifle and cartridge was pretty impressive Down Under. But where it really came to shine, and where Mark David really showed off was Zimbabwe 2014. He had grown up a bit, and honed his shooting skills to seriously incredible levels. He did a lot of shooting, and NO MISSING ANYTHING, not one shot was off. And, he did not wait around to see what happened, he ran that little gun like a semi auto it was so fast, I thought I was fast with a bolt gun, I was not even in the running with this show. First up was the hippo on the dirt.. right on the beach, he and Andrew did the sneak up, and next thing I know I heard 3 fast shots and it was done. All with the 350 #13 Solids.

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Then the main attraction, his buffalo...... Once again, I lagged behind, let him and Andrew handle it, heard one shot, then a quick followup, and done......... He used the 320 Raptor for a broadside heart shot, followed by a #13 Solid. The bull went 5 steps and fell over. He was a happy boy. My rule of thumb is I like for a buffalo bullet to penetrate 20 inches in my test medium, I will go with 18" but rather have more. The 320 Raptor does not make that, but it sure worked fine, I believe we recovered the base in the hide far side.

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For days every time we drove by the local village, the elders would stop us, and complain about 3 young bulls that was terrorizing them every night, every evening. Finally Coris relented, and turned to us and asked if Mark David wanted to shoot an elephant? Well, "Does a bear Crap in the Woods?" Of course we were up for it. I had Mark David load up with the 350 gr #13 Solids..... I forget the hunt exactly, but the jest of it was, we were set up in a small cleared area, not very wide, and were ahead of where these three bulls were moving along towards the village to start the evenings rampage. So we just squatted down and waited. The plan was, Mark David would take the first shot, and I get to play back up. I have the first of only two, 500 B&Ms in the field for the first time... this was a special, personal project of mine, nice gun, short 18 inch barrel, 2.5 inch RUM case and I was shooting a 450 gr #13 .500 caliber solid at 2400 fps. I was surely going to get to fire the second shot on this elephant!!!!!!! Well, here they came, Coris told Mark David to take a particular one as he passed by...... They passed CLOSE, only 10 steps away, Mark David had been versed on side brain, frontal brain, and of course heart shot from different perspectives. As the bull walked by at 10 Steps, Mark David rose to his feet and just as quickly fired a 350 Gr .474 caliber #13 Solid dead center on the side brain shot, rear end drops, followed by the head........ There was no reason at all I needed to shoot, it was done, it was over just that quick. Mark followed up with an insurance heart shot......... What an experience for a young man! And, I was very impressed with the little bullet, it exited the far side of the head as well............

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I was very proud of his shooting. But crap, I never got to back up anything either......... so there is a downside to hunting with a shooter........

Some data on the 475 SS;

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After I had given Mark David the first 475 SS, I had SSK build another for me, at the same time Wes touched base from Accurate Innovations and told me he had one stick of Zebra wood that was only long enough to fit a Super Short rifle........ So you know the rest of the story just from the photo....
I am not sure when this was, might have been shortly after 2014, I have no data, simply because I have never fired the rifle...... I just never felt the need to do so...............

It is fine to look at however and very unique wood.

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There was just enough wood left over, Wes also made a couple of sets of 1911 grips for me, which I had two nice Commercial guns to put them on........

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There are only two of these 475 Super Shorts. Mark and I have both.

There are quite a few 50 and 458 SS out in the world........ and that is as it should be. I sure have enough .474 caliber CEB and NF to feed these for the rest of our lives however....... HEH
 

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Well Michael I think you have summed up a lot in your last 2 posts that @Altitude sickness sumed up well & let me say I think now reading your posts above I actually got my answer to our pm on yes it may not be any better but I just need to do/ have it to see re 474

So I’m off tomorrow to do just that & let’s see how it pans out lol

Forgive me fellas for being a little cryptic but I’ll leave it in Micheal’s capable hands if what we have been working on sees the light of day but for me I’m going to crack a elephant pretty soon on what we decide is the go anyway

But shhh a solid can’t do what an expanding can do ?? ha ha but clear ones head is a must

I have a few receipts myself on this now lol

Cheers
 
Forgive me fellas for being a little cryptic but I’ll leave it in Micheal’s capable hands if what we have been working
HEH..... Fordy must have a mouse in his pocket? He has been doing the work on a project, I just been running my mouth, or maybe using my fingers to type BS along the way.......... Suffice it to say, it is finishing a major project that we touched on way back sometime before 2010, it might have been 2009 even, but never got around to finishing it. We looked at this project even before the #13 Solid was finalized. Fordy is finally finishing it out. I will leave it at that for right now. A hint, well it involves some high velocity Solids of the #13 variety and larger caliber .510 right now. Indeed, it has a purpose beyond what we currently have. However, take note, it is not something that is needed by most anyone here, only a select few would benefit at all. But for those few, it has tremendous merit.

Curious now aren't you?

HEH HEH............... Well, just gonna have to wait and see. It is more Fordy project than mine, he will have to give the go to disclose it properly, but I would be happy to do the typing.....................

While I was looking for something for Fordy, I ran across an old Pre #13 photo of a SS, keeping with the thread..............

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And same here, I ran across a very interesting photo of this wild bullet........... there was only one of these........

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I think we can suffice to say that penetration was dead straight, this is it sticking out the back of the box......

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Gday Bob


I mentioned to Michael sometime ago about Ted but I didn’t know about crossover stocks so would you have picture as might be useful for a few or a link if possible where you can get them
Cheers
@Fordy
I don't have pictures sorry but I'm sure you could google it.
They are a weird looking thing. Akin to a severely offset stock.
Bob
 

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