404 Jeffery Build on a standard action ??

Ontario Hunter said:

Building a 404 was never going to be cheap ... or easy. I knew that. But the end product is mine, not some soulless assembly line piece of metal and wood. It is a reflection of a man from a bygone era when people did things for themselves. When they searched for challenges to conquer and accomplished them without weighing costs.

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I really understand this. This is exactly why I want to build it!

Flewis said:

My 500J is the slickest running big bore I’ve ever owned.

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The only time I used a 500J it jammed on the first cartridge . The rifle was brand new and being offered for me to shoot and buy . Made by a very famous maker. I handed it to a renowned firearms author who was accompanying me . It jammed again . I passed on it . Hugely disappointing experience . No sale .

Ontario Hunter said:

As I understand it, the rebated rim allowed for use of stripper clips which culling game control rangers liked. I can't imagine using that much 500 Jeffery ammo that fast for culling dangerous game. Ouch! Must have been exciting times! Those rangers were tough characters! Built for rugby.

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I think the 425WRs were intended to be fed by stripper clips . Not sure the 500J and the similar Schulers were intended to be loaded in that manner .

Huvius said:

The only difference between a standard and magnum Mauser '98 is the length.
Receiver ring diameter is the same.
Bolt diameter/bolt face is the same.
The locking ring (or recess as I hear it called) is reduced to accommodate longer or larger diameter cartridges.
Keep in mind that this recess is just ahead of the loading ramp so as the ramp is altered there is potential to reduce the recess and thus the area where the bolt lug contacts the action.
I've never smoked an action to see exactly where the lug engages the action but I'd wager that few have good contact over the entire surface where they fit together.
The 425WR, 11.2X72, 404 and the 500 Schuler/Jeffery were all deliberately designed to fit a standard action.
I don't know why the rebated rim was chosen other than it obviates the need to open the bolt face which I suppose could be seen as a benefit if one needed a replacement bolt or extractor out in the field, at least for the 425 and 11.2 - the 500 rim is rebated in relation to the base but not as markedly as the other two.

Properly built 500s run as smoothly as any other chambering - the rebated rim is not a design flaw.

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The big difference between the standard action and magnum action is the length of the action and the bolt. A standard action is 8 3/4" long from front of locking ring to end of the tang. The magnum action is 1/2" longer. The locking ring is not rebated on a magnum action. It's not necessary for 416 Rigby for which the action was designed. The rebated or recessed locking ring is something done post manufacture to shorter standard length actions to make them work with overlength magnum cartridges (e.g. 416 Rigby). If the locking ring isn't trimmed back, the longer loaded magnum cartridges will not eject when clearing the rifle. Magnum bolts are also manufactured with a wider bolt face although bolt diameter is the same as standard action.

Some thoughts on the 10.75x68 from my side! There's no question that the .404 Jeffery is the better cartridge for DG. But you shouldn't underestimate the performance of the 10.75x68. Let's assume that the cartridge is used in an unaltered 98 system. The OAL is 84.0 mm, provided that the original magazine box is not modified. I simulated various loads with ReloadSwiss RS 60 with Gordon'sd Reloading Tool and 70.8 grain of RS 60 topped with a 400 grain Woodleigh bullet result in a velocity of > 2200 ft/sec and a working pressure equivalent to that of a .30-06 Springfield when the roud is loaded to a max of 84 mm (OAL). A barrel length of 65 cm was assumed. The 98 system can certainly withstand higher pressures than the working pressure of a .30-06, so there is still some room for improvement even when the round is used in hot climates. This is, of course, a simulation, but the theoretical performance data are identical to or even slightly exceed those of the .400/450 Nitro, which is highly praised as a DG caliber in this forum. This clearly shows that the 10.75x68 is more than just a cartridge suitable for hunting European game such as boars or moose. Cases are easy to obtain in Europe and .423 bullets are available from various manufacturers. Since the case is about 0.6 mm thicker than the standard 8x57 cartridge, no changes to the system rails and magazine feeder are necessary, which certainly makes a conversion easy.

For a rifle in .404 I would not choose an FN action. If I am not mistaken the FN system has a weaker H-type collar while the original Mauser system has a stronger C-type system collar.

I'm not convinced 10.75x68 would not require thinning the rails on an 8mm standard 98 Mauser to feed properly. How many fit in the standard box? Just two?

BlackRhino said:

For a rifle in .404 I would not choose an FN action. If I am not mistaken the FN system has a weaker H-type collar while the original Mauser system has a stronger C-type system collar.

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"While some early, pre-1900, or specific carbine models might be small ring, you should assume an FN Mauser is a large ring action unless it is an 1895 or earlier model. "

Ontario Hunter said:

I'm not convinced 10.75x68 would not require thinning the rails on an 8mm standard 98 Mauser to feed properly. How many fit in the standard box? Just two?

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Three without any modification, four with a slight amount of work

BlackRhino said:

For a rifle in .404 I would not choose an FN action. If I am not mistaken the FN system has a weaker H-type collar while the original Mauser system has a stronger C-type system collar.

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The later model FN actions have better metallurgy, the "H" verses "C" argument is mostly an old wives tale.
Gumpy

BlackRhino said:

For a rifle in .404 I would not choose an FN action. If I am not mistaken the FN system has a weaker H-type collar while the original Mauser system has a stronger C-type system collar.

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Mine will be an original Mauser 98 action, though I do like the FN 98 for standard rifles.

@ Gumpy
Is there a reliable source for the superior steel quality of the FN system compared to a Mauser or DWM production?

BlackRhino said:

@ Gumpy
Is there a reliable source for the superior steel quality of the FN system compared to a Mauser or DWM production?

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Pretty sure Ludwig Olson's book mentions it, and general gunsmithing books will, Parker Hale would only use certain actions due to poorer grade steels in earlier receivers. There is/was a smith on another forum who did a lot of testing on different Mauser actions to determine which ones were better to build on (don’t know if we are allowed to mention other forums, but the owner is an Arab chap)
Gumpy

Regarding the steel quality of the various Mauser 98 actions, this generally varies considerably since this action was first produced, and also varies the quality of this actions within the same time period, depending on where and by whom they were manufactured. The FN Mauser actions were certainly the best Mauser actions available in the 1950s, especially compared to the Mauser 98 actions produced towards the end of World War II. However, in terms of steel, the FN Mauser actions remains a technology from the 1950s, not comparable to the steel quality of the Mauser actions nowadays in production. Without having to read a book, a fair amount of information can be found on the internet, especially regarding the various types of steel that have been used since the beginning of the production of Mauser 98 actions.

Here’s the donor action for the future build. I found a great breakdown of the build on another “single action” forum by a guy named Colt 45 with lots of photos but a bit light on explaining how to tune the feed ramps. Over time, I’ll post progress but it’ll be a while since I have a 30-06 build in process.

SwampTrooper said:

Here’s the donor action for the future build. I found a great breakdown of the build on another “single action” forum by a guy named Colt 45 with lots of photos but a bit light on explaining how to tune the feed ramps. Over time, I’ll post progress but it’ll be a while since I have a 30-06 build in process.

View attachment 750721

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Looks like a military action. Which version?

I presume you will be ordering custom bottom metal? You will need to open the underside of military receiver to match the custom box opening. I used a grinding wheel on a Dremel tool and it did the job well enough. Not spit and polish glamorous but no one can see it once the rifle is put together. Watch for cartridges getting caught at the junction between box and receiver. Trim receiver belly as needed.

When tuning the rails, start by loading up three dummy rounds at standard OAL. First, grind the loading ramp back just far enough so loaded cartridges can rise to the rails. The ramp will need more tuning later. When tuning the rails, load the magazine with three rounds and gradually trim the right rail and the ramp so it releases the cartridge at approximately the right spot. Then with two cartridges in magazine, trim the left rail (ramp should be okay but may need a bit of relief on that side). Now you are done with rails and ramp. But almost certainly a single cartridge in the magazine will not leave the rails properly, especially if using the military follower which is designed for much narrower cartridges and box. Time to trim the follower. Start at the back end of follower and work forward.

Th

Ontario Hunter said:

Looks like a military action. Which version?

I presume you will be ordering custom bottom metal? You will need to open the underside of military receiver to match the custom box opening. I used a grinding wheel on a Dremel tool and it did the job well enough. Not spit and polish glamorous but no one can see it once the rifle is put together. Watch for cartridges getting caught at the junction between box and receiver. Trim receiver belly as needed.

When tuning the rails, start by loading up three dummy rounds at standard OAL. First, grind the loading ramp back just far enough so loaded cartridges can rise to the rails. The ramp will need more tuning later. When tuning the rails, load the magazine with three rounds and gradually trim the right rail and the ramp so it releases the cartridge at approximately the right spot. Then with two cartridges in magazine, trim the left rail (ramp should be okay but may need a bit of relief on that side). Now you are done with rails and ramp. But almost certainly a single cartridge in the magazine will not leave the rails properly, especially if using the military follower which is designed for much narrower cartridges and box. Time to trim the follower. Start at the back end of follower and work forward.

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The action is from an interwar Mauser Model A sporter which is likely a new old stock G98 action. The original was chambered in 9x57.

SwampTrooper said:

Th

The action is from an interwar Mauser Model A sporter which is likely a new old stock G98 action. The original was chambered in 9x57.

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You will need new bottom metal for sure unless you want to try modifying the existing one. Not advisable in my opinion. Too much work involved and result can be marginal. Our friends in Australia are often stuck making their old bottom metal work because it's almost impossible for them to import gun parts. But you have several options available. I presume you'll be installing a new trigger? I had to do some modifying before Timney would fit my 98 Mauser project. Timney instructions say to trim the trigger sear as needed but I opted to modify the cocking piece sear instead. Much cheaper to replace cocking piece than trigger if I screwed up. Good luck with your project.

Can be done but a magnum action better suites the 404 Jeff

IvW said:

Can be done but a magnum action better suites the 404 Jeff

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Agreed but the idea is to have a project that is reminiscent of the originals.

SwampTrooper said:

Agreed but the idea is to have a project that is reminiscent of the originals.

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I disagree. The 404 cartridge was designed to fit a standard action 98 Mauser, not a magnum action. Standard action has a shorter bolt throw which, theoretically, reduces the probability of short stroking and jamming the gun = not a good situation if a 1700 lb hurt animal seeks his revenge up close and personal. Standard action is also lighter, and MUCH cheaper/easier to acquire. Replacement parts are also much easier to find for standard length Mauser (e.g. extractor, bolt, and striker).

There is absolutely no advantage to building 404 on a magnum Mauser action. It's a myth. The only convenience would be magnum's longer magazine but that's an easy fix with standard action. On the other hand, building 375 H&H and 416 Rigby on standard action, while it can be done, is a more difficult project as it requires relieving the locking ring to allow for ejection of much longer loaded cartridges. I would prefer magnum action for those builds but the cost of acquiring one would likely be more than having a machinist/gunsmith make a standard action work.