Why you dont want to hunt elephant..?

I also know that elephants are only hunted on basis 1:1. One time a buffalo hunter was with me in the camp, but otherwise I was always alone.
 
Philip, I must disagree with you here. If we cannot respectfully discuss these issues on our forum, then where? It is evident that we cannot discuss it with those who are driven by emotion.

I think this poster entered the discussion in good faith, and is working through some of the conflicts and emotions that the hunting and conservation of such majestic animals brings. I believe they even acknowledged later in the thread that there is some hypocrisy in their post.
Sure we can and should respectfully discuss and at times disagree in a polite manner. I totally agree. If I misunderstood something I apologize but have not seen that.
Let me ask you where is the line? Where is the line that gets crossed and the pov is against hunting and conservation?
He says I should not be able to shoot an elephant but a local should be able to. Do you understand there is NO money coming in for conservation by locals? This POV is simply anti hunting.
Each of us can have their own line in the sand. He crossed mine.
 
How frequently does 2:1 hunt happen for elephant (or any other DG animal)?
I think this is very unusual. Havent seen many such offers.

I think that 2 hunters can share the same camp, but they will hunt on 1:1 basis.
We don't do 2x1 very often for DG. I have done father/son 2X1 but we only had one buffalo tag. Certainly not elephant.
 
Sure we can and should respectfully discuss and at times disagree in a polite manner. I totally agree. If I misunderstood something I apologize but have not seen that.
Let me ask you where is the line? Where is the line that gets crossed and the pov is against hunting and conservation?
He says I should not be able to shoot an elephant but a local should be able to. Do you understand there is NO money coming in for conservation by locals? This POV is simply anti hunting.
Each of us can have their own line in the sand. He crossed mine.

I understand the point of view the OP is coming from. I was once much like him...

Growing up in rural Potter County Pennsylvania in the 1970’s when it was the whitetail hunting capitol of the highest deer hunter state in the USA, tribalism was part of the culture.

“Flatlanders” were from the more affluent southern areas of the state such as Philadelphia and Bucks County, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, and gosh darn (New) Jersey! Often, people from those areas would own and maintain hunting “camps” throughout “our” county.

Flatlanders were easily identifiable by their accents; I suppose as most westerners are when in Africa. Individually, the flatlanders with predominantly good people. We local teenagers were simply quite jealous of their affluence. Flatlanders would often arrive in new, fancy 4x4 pickups with all the hunting stuff most locals could not afford, such as Leupold riflescopes and such.

Lacking economic opportunity and being mentored by the “Greatest Generation (World War II and Korean War veterans)”, two weeks after graduating high school, I was standing motionless on the “yellow footprints” at Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island. It wasn’t long after graduating boot camp at my first duty station, Cherry Point North Carolina that I experienced similar rude behavior that “stump jumpers”, i.e. hillbilly twice removed, gave to flatlanders. Young Marines were not well liked by many of the locals close to the base. Further, in the south in 1977, the locals were, in their minds still fighting the civil war. I quickly found out that I was a “Yaaankee”. Hmmm, “Treat people as you want to be treated…” Karma was jack slapping me for being rude to flatlanders!

Looking back, there were many “rich flatlanders” that came to Potter County and shot “our” deer. Their different, urban behavior seemed rude to many locals. There were however probably more flatlanders who were steel workers and regular Joes that were war buddies. Their annual hunting trips were reunions of sorts. Once again, they picked up their rifles and felt young and indestructible.

Perhaps the locals in USA western states feel the same about the visiting elk and sheep hunters now as I once did about flatlanders? Or that young Africans may think about us western hunters coming to Africa to shoot all of “their” animals?

That is why we as visitors need to be kind and take care of the Africans. We on AH have discussions on tipping. Why? As a moderate income American I have more disposal income than 98% of all sub-Saharan Africans, black or white! I plan my hunting expensives on an Excel spreadsheet so I know exactly what costs to expect. That way there are no surprises. But when breaking our tuskless camp this past September, I may not have been the highest tipper every, but I gosh darn sure took care of the PH, trackers, Zim Parks Ranger, and camp staff.

I also made it known when planning my hunt that distributing the meat to needy villagers was nearly an equal a priority as me bagging a tuskless. In fact, agreed to add an eland to my hunt only if half of the meat would go home with the trackers and camp staff. Eland meat is prised and usually saved for meals for client hunters.

We visiting hunters should be gracious to our hosts. We also should be wise and allow a certain amount or tribalism, prejudice is you will, from those who do not know all that visiting hunters do for local Africans. Perhaps we would think the same if we were them? I know I once did.
 
Why do some people drive toyotas and others swear by chevy?
Wiskey or rum?
Blondes or
I feel like this is the answer. I hunt a lot of different species, but there are many others that I just have no interest in. I hunt in Africa for fun with friends. We enjoy each other’s company and just have a relaxing time chasing plains game. The pinnacle of hunting is probably different for everyone. For me, it is mountain sheep… probably Stones Sheep specifically.
 
I feel like this is the answer. I hunt a lot of different species, but there are many others that I just have no interest in. I hunt in Africa for fun with friends. We enjoy each other’s company and just have a relaxing time chasing plains game. The pinnacle of hunting is probably different for everyone. For me, it is mountain sheep… probably Stones Sheep specifically.
Ive settled that ill never get to hunt a bighorn/other sheep.. i wonder how some folks get so lucky on draws seems like its 30 years plus to get a tag.
What makes stone sheep hunting your favorite? And whats been your favorite hunt im africa
 
I like Stones because of the beautiful country they live in. I have hunted the Cassier Mountains and the Spatsizi Plateau in BC. It is truly beautiful country. I like the remoteness of it. Wall tents, float planes, horses, northern lights at night. Great fishing. Super fun. Africa, it’s all pretty fun. I really like warthogs… they’re everywhere and a lot of fun. Maybe bushbuck? Bushpig is fun. Buffalo… it’s all fun.
 
I understand the point of view the OP is coming from. I was once much like him...

Growing up in rural Potter County Pennsylvania in the 1970’s when it was the whitetail hunting capitol of the highest deer hunter state in the USA, tribalism was part of the culture.

“Flatlanders” were from the more affluent southern areas of the state such as Philadelphia and Bucks County, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, and gosh darn (New) Jersey! Often, people from those areas would own and maintain hunting “camps” throughout “our” county.

Flatlanders were easily identifiable by their accents; I suppose as most westerners are when in Africa. Individually, the flatlanders with predominantly good people. We local teenagers were simply quite jealous of their affluence. Flatlanders would often arrive in new, fancy 4x4 pickups with all the hunting stuff most locals could not afford, such as Leupold riflescopes and such.

Lacking economic opportunity and being mentored by the “Greatest Generation (World War II and Korean War veterans)”, two weeks after graduating high school, I was standing motionless on the “yellow footprints” at Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island. It wasn’t long after graduating boot camp at my first duty station, Cherry Point North Carolina that I experienced similar rude behavior that “stump jumpers”, i.e. hillbilly twice removed, gave to flatlanders. Young Marines were not well liked by many of the locals close to the base. Further, in the south in 1977, the locals were, in their minds still fighting the civil war. I quickly found out that I was a “Yaaankee”. Hmmm, “Treat people as you want to be treated…” Karma was jack slapping me for being rude to flatlanders!

Looking back, there were many “rich flatlanders” that came to Potter County and shot “our” deer. Their different, urban behavior seemed rude to many locals. There were however probably more flatlanders who were steel workers and regular Joes that were war buddies. Their annual hunting trips were reunions of sorts. Once again, they picked up their rifles and felt young and indestructible.

Perhaps the locals in USA western states feel the same about the visiting elk and sheep hunters now as I once did about flatlanders? Or that young Africans may think about us western hunters coming to Africa to shoot all of “their” animals?

That is why we as visitors need to be kind and take care of the Africans. We on AH have discussions on tipping. Why? As a moderate income American I have more disposal income than 98% of all sub-Saharan Africans, black or white! I plan my hunting expensives on an Excel spreadsheet so I know exactly what costs to expect. That way there are no surprises. But when breaking our tuskless camp this past September, I may not have been the highest tipper every, but I gosh darn sure took care of the PH, trackers, Zim Parks Ranger, and camp staff.

I also made it known when planning my hunt that distributing the meat to needy villagers was nearly an equal a priority as me bagging a tuskless. In fact, agreed to add an eland to my hunt only if half of the meat would go home with the trackers and camp staff. Eland meat is prised and usually saved for meals for client hunters.

We visiting hunters should be gracious to our hosts. We also should be wise and allow a certain amount or tribalism, prejudice is you will, from those who do not know all that visiting hunters do for local Africans. Perhaps we would think the same if we were them? I know I once did.
I dont understand that mentslity at all. The only deer that are "mine" exist while its
1 deer season
2 there on my farm.
The issue being trespass more than who the deer belongs to.
I understand not liking yankees. And idiots in the woods. But being a dick on pub land i dont get
 
I understand the point of view the OP is coming from. I was once much like him...

Growing up in rural Potter County Pennsylvania in the 1970’s when it was the whitetail hunting capitol of the highest deer hunter state in the USA, tribalism was part of the culture.

“Flatlanders” were from the more affluent southern areas of the state such as Philadelphia and Bucks County, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, and gosh darn (New) Jersey! Often, people from those areas would own and maintain hunting “camps” throughout “our” county.

Flatlanders were easily identifiable by their accents; I suppose as most westerners are when in Africa. Individually, the flatlanders with predominantly good people. We local teenagers were simply quite jealous of their affluence. Flatlanders would often arrive in new, fancy 4x4 pickups with all the hunting stuff most locals could not afford, such as Leupold riflescopes and such.

Lacking economic opportunity and being mentored by the “Greatest Generation (World War II and Korean War veterans)”, two weeks after graduating high school, I was standing motionless on the “yellow footprints” at Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island. It wasn’t long after graduating boot camp at my first duty station, Cherry Point North Carolina that I experienced similar rude behavior that “stump jumpers”, i.e. hillbilly twice removed, gave to flatlanders. Young Marines were not well liked by many of the locals close to the base. Further, in the south in 1977, the locals were, in their minds still fighting the civil war. I quickly found out that I was a “Yaaankee”. Hmmm, “Treat people as you want to be treated…” Karma was jack slapping me for being rude to flatlanders!

Looking back, there were many “rich flatlanders” that came to Potter County and shot “our” deer. Their different, urban behavior seemed rude to many locals. There were however probably more flatlanders who were steel workers and regular Joes that were war buddies. Their annual hunting trips were reunions of sorts. Once again, they picked up their rifles and felt young and indestructible.

Perhaps the locals in USA western states feel the same about the visiting elk and sheep hunters now as I once did about flatlanders? Or that young Africans may think about us western hunters coming to Africa to shoot all of “their” animals?

That is why we as visitors need to be kind and take care of the Africans. We on AH have discussions on tipping. Why? As a moderate income American I have more disposal income than 98% of all sub-Saharan Africans, black or white! I plan my hunting expensives on an Excel spreadsheet so I know exactly what costs to expect. That way there are no surprises. But when breaking our tuskless camp this past September, I may not have been the highest tipper every, but I gosh darn sure took care of the PH, trackers, Zim Parks Ranger, and camp staff.

I also made it known when planning my hunt that distributing the meat to needy villagers was nearly an equal a priority as me bagging a tuskless. In fact, agreed to add an eland to my hunt only if half of the meat would go home with the trackers and camp staff. Eland meat is prised and usually saved for meals for client hunters.

We visiting hunters should be gracious to our hosts. We also should be wise and allow a certain amount or tribalism, prejudice is you will, from those who do not know all that visiting hunters do for local Africans. Perhaps we would think the same if we were them? I know I once did.
Flippin Crayon eating overpaid Hillbillies, and others of their ilk. :LOL:
 
I dont understand that mentslity at all. The only deer that are "mine" exist while its
1 deer season
2 there on my farm.
The issue being trespass more than who the deer belongs to.
I understand not liking yankees. And idiots in the woods. But being a dick on pub land i dont get

I have trouble understanding illiterate posts from native born English speakers. Me, being a poor speller, I type posts in MS Word, and edit them before dropping them into a public post. It’s the least I could do for others. I still have a typo or two, but those are not because I didn’t have the curtesy for others in my posts.

To pre-judge anyone such as not liking western hunters, flatlanders, or Yankees is the definition of prejudice. Wisdom gained through mistakes reveals to us that we were or are wrong in being such. I was wrong in my younger days and try not to be now.
 
Flippin Crayon eating overpaid Hillbillies, and others of their ilk. :LOL:
Guilty or I was of being a hillbilly twice removed,
I retired from active duty in 1998. The "crayon eating" insults must of started after that.

Further, I find it bad manners at best when a superior demeans an lessor life form :) That's why I never insult my fellow service members! How's that from what you may joke of as a crayon eater :)
 
I have trouble understanding illiterate posts from native born English speakers. Me, being a poor speller, I type posts in MS Word, and edit them before dropping them into a public post. It’s the least I could do for others. I still have a typo or two, but those are not because I didn’t have the curtesy for others in my posts.

To pre-judge anyone such as not liking western hunters, flatlanders, or Yankees is the definition of prejudice. Wisdom gained through mistakes reveals to us that we were or are wrong in being such. I was wrong in my younger days and try not to be now.
Little harder to do on a phone.
And I have big thumbs.

There is nothing inherently wrong with prejudice as thats basically in group preference. Its how its applied that can be wrong. The whole comcept of stranger dsnger you teach your kids is literally based on it.

And yankees get a bad wrap cause it wasnt too long ago yall torched the south. Calender years yes it was.
But for example. My grandfathers great grandmother who lived through it was alive until he was 14. My grandfather is still alive.
Im 1 degree of seperation from the actual event/living memory. Alot of folks esp older families still live in the area of where those homes were burned or family starved are not that far removed from the event.

Dial it back to 1970 I can very much see that fire burning much much brighter.
 
Guilty or I was of being a hillbilly twice removed,
I retired from active duty in 1998. The "crayon eating" insults must of started after that.

Further, I find it bad manners at best when a superior demeans an lessor life form :) That's why I never insult my fellow service members! How's that from what you may joke of as a crayon eater :)
All good natured rivalry, not disrespectful.

In my eyes, all are equally worthless. :LOL:
images (68).jpeg
 
We still smell the powder burning, and probably always will.
 
Yeah, my grandfather knew some of the last Confederate veterans... he was twenty years old before he knew "damnyankee" was actually two words.

But I digress...
 
I’m of a similar mindset.

I prefer to hunt Africa alone, or maybe with one other close friend in camp, especially if it’s a first for them, but I do so knowing my hunt is taking a backseat to them and the enjoyment is seeing their first; wild Africa, first buffalo, first elephant, etc

Plains Game I’m a little more flexible on. I’ve done the large RSA Camp, private group, and alone. It was cool seeing so many first timers and their reactions to Africa but it brought a bunch of issues. Never again. Too much deconfliction needed on areas and it didn’t always work. I could tell there was a hierarchy within the PH’s picking areas, and jealousy from big spenders when other hunters killed something exceptional.
Yes, I can see that. Ideal would be sharing a camp, but hunting 1:1.

Sure we can and should respectfully discuss and at times disagree in a polite manner. I totally agree. If I misunderstood something I apologize but have not seen that.
Let me ask you where is the line? Where is the line that gets crossed and the pov is against hunting and conservation?
He says I should not be able to shoot an elephant but a local should be able to. Do you understand there is NO money coming in for conservation by locals? This POV is simply anti hunting.
Each of us can have their own line in the sand. He crossed mine.
There are too few people who are willing to engage civilly with those who disagree with them. If I didn’t engage with those of different viewpoints - even across my ‘line’, there’s many things I wouldn’t have learned, and in some cases, perhaps, that they wouldn’t have learned.

For example, when I was 21 I did an Outward Bound Mountain Leadership Expedition for 36 days in BC. The first night, the leaders asked us to partner up for tent mates. A girl asked me to share a tent with her and after we had set up our tent, offered me her hand and said, “I’m Jessie, and I’m a lesbian.” I politely shook her hand and replied, “I’m Kyle and I’m a Lutheran.” We became close friends and worked together for the next month focusing on what we had in common and understanding and being kind to each other. For a small-town kid from rural Alberta, it was a good lesson in manners and not making assumptions. Hopefully, it was a good lesson in tolerance for her too - having to put up with and cooperate with me with all of my flaws.

Returning to the topic at hand, I completely agree with your point and your pushback that traveling hunters (primarily Americans) contribute greatly to conservation in Africa. I can also see why some Africans resent us hunters - at least some of us and at certain times. Where I disagree with you, is suggesting that is forum is not the place for ?him or anyone else who engages in discussion in good-faith and with respect. I believe, that, by definition that is the purpose of a ‘forum’.

One of the reasons I am so active in this forum, is that you and others offer thoughtful disagreement on a number of issues. I have learned a great deal about hunting in Africa - from cartridges to etiquette - without having to make the ‘mistakes’/learn the lessons first-hand myself.
 
I feel like this is the answer. I hunt a lot of different species, but there are many others that I just have no interest in. I hunt in Africa for fun with friends. We enjoy each other’s company and just have a relaxing time chasing plains game. The pinnacle of hunting is probably different for everyone. For me, it is mountain sheep… probably Stones Sheep specifically.
I’d agree with your statement on Sheep being the pinnacle. They’ve been my pinnacle as well since I was little. Something about it being very likely you’re hunting and walking were no other human has due to the remoteness and ruggedness of the beautiful areas you’ve described. That said, I haven’t been lucky enough to experience this but have a Dall Sheep Hunt planned in the NWT for 2028. Until then, Elephant will remain my favorite animal to hunt. I’ll let yall know if it moves to my #2 once I return.

@farmer_john never say never. Not sure on your age, but if you’re beyond your mid to late 20’s I’d suggest saving your money on the points game and focusing on raffle tags, or planning a Canadian or Alaskan hunt 5 years out so you can tackle a payment plan in yearly chunks. If it’s something you want to do, you’ll make sacrifices elsewhere and figure out a way to make it happen.
A lot of the guys who are drawing those Desert Bighorn and Rocky Mountain Bighorn tags after 25-30 years started applying when they were 18-21. Others get lucky because they understand the draw, and spend hours and days crunching the numbers on past years draw data to maximize their applications. Maybe it’s because Sheep have always been the pinnacle for me, but I too started applying in my late teens and early twenties because I knew it was something so wanted to do. Being junior enlisted in the military I couldn’t afford a bunch of applications so I started with one state then moved to two, three and eventually almost every western state (the deployment bank rolls helped). I did so only as I learned their draws and had more income to apply. I also spend days worth of time each year crunching draw data, going over harvest stats, and talking to biologists to confirm my draw choices and strategy is still valid or if I should pivot to a different area, give it another year or two, etc. Now I’m in my late 30’s and my points range from 12 to 20 (species dependent) for most of the western states. I’ve drawn several once in a lifetime tags and killed some great trophies out west. I’m still searching for the 380+ inch Elk, 200+ inch Muley, and 84+ inch pronghorn but I’m getting significantly closer to drawing several tags that afford the opportunity to hunt prime trophy managed areas with the genetics to produce trophies of that caliber.
 
I’d agree with your statement on Sheep being the pinnacle. They’ve been my pinnacle as well since I was little. Something about it being very likely you’re hunting and walking were no other human has due to the remoteness and ruggedness of the beautiful areas you’ve described. That said, I haven’t been lucky enough to experience this but have a Dall Sheep Hunt planned in the NWT for 2028. Until then, Elephant will remain my favorite animal to hunt. I’ll let yall know if it moves to my #2 once I return.

@farmer_john never say never. Not sure on your age, but if you’re beyond your mid to late 20’s I’d suggest saving your money on the points game and focusing on raffle tags, or planning a Canadian or Alaskan hunt 5 years out so you can tackle a payment plan in yearly chunks. If it’s something you want to do, you’ll make sacrifices elsewhere and figure out a way to make it happen.
A lot of the guys who are drawing those Desert Bighorn and Rocky Mountain Bighorn tags after 25-30 years started applying when they were 18-21. Others get lucky because they understand the draw, and spend hours and days crunching the numbers on past years draw data to maximize their applications. Maybe it’s because Sheep have always been the pinnacle for me, but I too started applying in my late teens and early twenties because I knew it was something so wanted to do. Being junior enlisted in the military I couldn’t afford a bunch of applications so I started with one state then moved to two, three and eventually almost every western state (the deployment bank rolls helped). I did so only as I learned their draws and had more income to apply. I also spend days worth of time each year crunching draw data, going over harvest stats, and talking to biologists to confirm my draw choices and strategy is still valid or if I should pivot to a different area, give it another year or two, etc. Now I’m in my late 30’s and my points range from 12 to 20 (species dependent) for most of the western states. I’ve drawn several once in a lifetime tags and killed some great trophies out west. I’m still searching for the 380+ inch Elk, 200+ inch Muley, and 84+ inch pronghorn but I’m getting significantly closer to drawing several tags that afford the opportunity to hunt prime trophy managed areas with the genetics to produce trophies of that caliber.
You explained the points game pretty well. I’ve been building points for many years in most of the western states that I want to hunt. Every bit as importantly, I started building points for my son, who is now 38. He’s drawn some great tags, especially in Arizona where he’s drawn 2 great elk tags and killed 2 real good bulls, a Kaibab deer tag where he shot a big buck and he’s in line for some sheep hunts as he has 26 sheep points in Wyoming and Nevada; and 30 in Arizona.

Persistence and consistency matter for western tag draws. I’ve drawn some great tags including a Desert Bighorn tag in California after 34 consecutive years applying. I’m sitting on 27 elk and 30 sheep points in AZ, have drawn unit 9 elk, AZ Strip deer and unit 10 antelope, all by consistently applying without missing a year.
 
We don't do 2x1 very often for DG. I have done father/son 2X1 but we only had one buffalo tag. Certainly not elephant.
I really enjoy hunting 2x1 with my son, but also a few special friends. That often means I’m not going to shoot anything, but I’m fine with that as I get to watch them hunt.

The last time I took my son to Africa, we hunted Madaba right in the center of the Selous Game Reserve. He was right beside me on an intense dry land hippo hunt and nearly fired a backup shot but realized my shot was true and the hippo was about to go down. Then a few days later we tracked a trio of Dugga Boys from where they’d watered and got close after a few hours following them. My son shot a very nice bull and since one of the others didn’t depart, I shot it. There’s really nothing better than hunting dangerous game together with your kids.

He’s not interested in shooting an elephant, but did say he’d like to tag along with me when I hunt them again. He was sitting next to me when I shot a leopard on that Selous hunt; and when I asked him if he wanted to shoot a leopard himself on our next safari, he declined and said it was enough to be next to me on that last leopard.

There aren’t a lot of people I’d consider hunting 2x1 with, but for the few I do, it’s about a shared experience more than me shooting another animal. I’d love to share an elephant hunt with my son.
 
I really enjoy hunting 2x1 with my son, but also a few special friends. That often means I’m not going to shoot anything, but I’m fine with that as I get to watch them hunt.

The last time I took my son to Africa, we hunted Madaba right in the center of the Selous Game Reserve. He was right beside me on an intense dry land hippo hunt and nearly fired a backup shot but realized my shot was true and the hippo was about to go down. Then a few days later we tracked a trio of Dugga Boys from where they’d watered and got close after a few hours following them. My son shot a very nice bull and since one of the others didn’t depart, I shot it. There’s really nothing better than hunting dangerous game together with your kids.

He’s not interested in shooting an elephant, but did say he’d like to tag along with me when I hunt them again. He was sitting next to me when I shot a leopard on that Selous hunt; and when I asked him if he wanted to shoot a leopard himself on our next safari, he declined and said it was enough to be next to me on that last leopard.

There aren’t a lot of people I’d consider hunting 2x1 with, but for the few I do, it’s about a shared experience more than me shooting another animal. I’d love to share an elephant hunt with my son.
My kids are the only ones I would do a 2X1 hunt with in Africa... if money and time were no object, sure, I would hunt with any of my buddies... but since neither are available in unlimited quantities (and both getting scarcer by the day), I will only hunt alone on safari.
Here at home, I have partners for most hunts.
 

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Catchaser wrote on Philip Glass's profile.
Phillip I was reviewing some of the auctions online and saw your Nubian Ibex hunt coming up this weekend. It also showed you have Addax and Axis deer. Is there a website I can go to and see the lodge, cost of animals and what is available? Thanks Mark
 
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