Interesting interview on game farming and Put and Take

Hookboy88 said:
There are several outfits that do lie about how they actually operate and it’s sad to see hunters getting sucked into it not knowing any better. I have seen reviews go up on multiple sites from hunters their first time over or those that just booked and dont know better claiming the outfitters free range or self sustaining when a lot of us know the outfitter and know that’s far from the truth. Wish the outfitters would all be transparent about how they operate
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I totally agree. Be honest and let the consumer make an informed decision. The least expensive hunt per trophy is going to be an extreme put and take operation. The most expensive is going to be a truly wild bush hunt for DG. There is a full spectrum of opportunity in between. I totally get that some cannot afford to go to Botswana for elephant, but desire to hunt Africa. Some are driven to collect a large number of trophies, while others, like myself, are happy to fire one shot after days of difficult tracking. The beauty of Africa is that it caters to all of us.
 
WAB said:
I totally agree. Be honest and let the consumer make an informed decision. The least expensive hunt per trophy is going to be an extreme put and take operation. The most expensive is going to be a truly wild bush hunt for DG. There is a full spectrum of opportunity in between. I totally get that some cannot afford to go to Botswana for elephant, but desire to hunt Africa. Some are driven to collect a large number of trophies, while others, like myself, are happy to fire one shot after days of difficult tracking. The beauty of Africa is that it caters to all of us.
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Yes, there are also several honest outfits in RSA that tell the truth about how they hunt. And if you check around there are outfitters that are not put and take in RSA. KMG Hunting safaris who commented on this thread is an example of an honest outfitter that does not practice put and take.
 
Not revealing your business secrets is not dishonesty and this also include the practice Put and Take. It would be completely different if someone promised hunting in untouched wilderness and in reality there were fences and high-voltage power lines everywhere. Experienced hunters in general, even without experience hunting in Africa, should normally know under what conditions all this offered hunts are possible. But many people want to experience a dream, in very different price ranges noted in passing, so that the organizers have to offer it sometimes with means that ultimately not everyone likes. As everywhere, quality comes at a higher price. If you want something cheaper, you should not be too demanding.
 
grand veneur said:
Not revealing your business secrets is not dishonesty and this also include the practice Put and Take. It would be completely different if someone promised hunting in untouched wilderness and in reality there were fences and high-voltage power lines everywhere. Experienced hunters in general, even without experience hunting in Africa, should normally know under what conditions all this offered hunts are possible. But many people want to experience a dream, in very different price ranges noted in passing, so that the organizers have to offer it sometimes with means that ultimately not everyone likes. As everywhere, quality comes at a higher price. If you want something cheaper, you should not be
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Hunting should be advised as such, meaning fair chase in which the animals are naturally occurring. If it’s behind a fence where the animal was placed there to be shot, it should be advised as shooting. Price has no weight on the argument. I really don’t want to hear that someone can only afford to hunt Africa if they go to a farm in SA, when there are free range options available for similar prices. I think SA is the easy button for many hunters especially with the guarantee they will see game.
 
grand veneur said:
Not revealing your business secrets is not dishonesty and this also include the practice Put and Take. It would be completely different if someone promised hunting in untouched wilderness and in reality there were fences and high-voltage power lines everywhere. Experienced hunters in general, even without experience hunting in Africa, should normally know under what conditions all this offered hunts are possible. But many people want to experience a dream, in very different price ranges noted in passing, so that the organizers have to offer it sometimes with means that ultimately not everyone likes. As everywhere, quality comes at a higher price. If you want something cheaper, you should not be too demanding.
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@grand veneur - in the context of what we are discussing (hunting High Fence “self sustaining vs. Supplementing”) You wrote “Not revealing your Business practices is Not dishonesty” —- ? Omitting relevant information is deceptive, getting very close to a “lie” and if the client asked the Operator or PH outright and was given an evasive answer = to a lie. If you asked Me sell you some land in Wyoming and I did (but left out that it was in Yellowstone National Park or a top a Nuclear Waste site) —- does that fall under “Not revealing Business Practices”?
 
375Fox said:
Read the post I responded to. It was written to you must accept put and take or spend millions to hunt game in native habitat. I highly disagree with that statement.
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may I say hats off to @375Fox for posting this! much appreciated and very insightful!
 
Vintageguy said:
Don’t be fooled into thinking put and take pheasant hunts are all advertised as such for the same reasons. No property in the Midwest is going to sustain hunting party after party limiting out week after week without stocking. They just won’t admit it and they won’t have holding pens about to give it away but I know for a fact many get thousands of birds released onto them. My friend hauls thousands every year to all the famous pheasant states and lodges from the small “we’re just a family farm” types to very expensive luxury lodges.
We hunted farms of friends and if we showed up after the holidays when they had family in shooting for a week, it was slim pickings indeed. But they would show us the pictures of the piles of birds from two weeks back.
My buddy loves to ask “how many fellas you think drive two days to get to the Dakotas to shoot wild birds when in fact they are shooting birds pen raised in Carolina?”
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@Vintageguy - never fooled and most guys with good dogs that have hunted Wild pheasant can often (not always) tell the difference. Not on a single flush and maybe not on those Block & Drive hunts…. Best example of “Wild” is when you drive up to a remote 500+ acre stubble cornfield, no one is around, snow on the ground, You get out of your truck and immediately from 400 yards away —- 100s of pheasant FLUSH and fly another 1/4 mile before landing. Then, you walk 1/2 a mile w/your dogs - to where you last saw them and maybe find “a few” or None. You may eventually kill 2 to 4 roosters after walking miles, during that walking you will have bumped dozens of birds that flushed 100+ yards away and never offered a shot but “hopefully” a few held tight enough and Your shooting was “good enough” to bag a few. That’s been my experience with Wild pheasant in SD. I hunt 2 hours North of Mitchel because the crowds a far less, the cost for a hunt 1/3 the price, and you can find land for a DIY hunt that is still holding wild birds in late Dec. Seeing 100s of pheasant each day was normal, seeing 100+ flush at once from 1/4 to 1/2 a mile away would also happen, But - getting a bird to hold under point was rare and getting shots under 30-40 yrds was also rare — it was hard hunting but worth the effort. You will also avoid the “Block & Drive” type pheasant hunting that big Lodges conduct with 20+ hunters and over a Dozen “driving” towards and other Dozen or more men “Blocking”…..Not my idea of a bird hunt but many guys love it and could care less if birds are wild or “supplemented/Liberated” etc..
 
The ODNR releases farm raised pheasants in one of the wildlife areas near me. I was hunting deer there during bow season a few days after they'd been released, but a day before pheasant season opened. They were everywhere, just walking around. I was in amongst them and seriously could've nailed a few with my bow. I could actually get that close.

I was back deer hunting there a day, maybe two at the most after the season opened. I saw only two pheasants, and those were a bit skittish. I wasn't going to tag one with an arrow.
 
HankBuck said:
@grand veneur - in the context of what we are discussing (hunting High Fence “self sustaining vs. Supplementing”) You wrote “Not revealing your Business practices is Not dishonesty” —- ? Omitting relevant information is deceptive, getting very close to a “lie” and if the client asked the Operator or PH outright and was given an evasive answer = to a lie. If you asked Me sell you some land in Wyoming and I did (but left out that it was in Yellowstone National Park or a top a Nuclear Waste site) —- does that fall under “Not revealing Business Practices”?
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I don't think you can compare this to buying land. You could rather compare it to a business that produces something for sale to customers but don't reveal the origin of its raw materials, timber wood for example.
 
grand veneur said:
I don't think you can compare this to buying land. You could rather compare it to a business that produces something for sale to customers but don't reveal the origin of its raw materials, timber wood for example.
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@grand veneur - OK, maybe my Land Sale was a poor example — so I’ll yield to your Example with the add that it’s Not being Honest, it’s “deceit”, deliberate omission of relevant information, creates a false impression, lack of full disclosure, ===== a LIE or very close to it. Now, if you can’t agree to any of that - my Question is: would You ever conduct yourself this way when Listing something for sale on AH ? I would hope Not.
 
HankBuck said:
@Vintageguy - never fooled and most guys with good dogs that have hunted Wild pheasant can often (not always) tell the difference. Not on a single flush and maybe not on those Block & Drive hunts…. Best example of “Wild” is when you drive up to a remote 500+ acre stubble cornfield, no one is around, snow on the ground, You get out of your truck and immediately from 400 yards away —- 100s of pheasant FLUSH and fly another 1/4 mile before landing. Then, you walk 1/2 a mile w/your dogs - to where you last saw them and maybe find “a few” or None. You may eventually kill 2 to 4 roosters after walking miles, during that walking you will have bumped dozens of birds that flushed 100+ yards away and never offered a shot but “hopefully” a few held tight enough and Your shooting was “good enough” to bag a few. That’s been my experience with Wild pheasant in SD. I hunt 2 hours North of Mitchel because the crowds a far less, the cost for a hunt 1/3 the price, and you can find land for a DIY hunt that is still holding wild birds in late Dec. Seeing 100s of pheasant each day was normal, seeing 100+ flush at once from 1/4 to 1/2 a mile away would also happen, But - getting a bird to hold under point was rare and getting shots under 30-40 yrds was also rare — it was hard hunting but worth the effort. You will also avoid the “Block & Drive” type pheasant hunting that big Lodges conduct with 20+ hunters and over a Dozen “driving” towards and other Dozen or more men “Blocking”…..Not my idea of a bird hunt but many guys love it and could care less if birds are wild or “supplemented/Liberated” etc..
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My wife and I hunted South Dakota for many years until our farming friends passed away, retired, or sold out to corporations. Never cared for the crowds, drunken hunters at the motels, or hot temperatures of opening week. There are definitely some stupid and wild birds early. I too shun the drives where a bird gets up and four different guys shoot, some out of range and others so close they shred the bird then everyone hollers “I got it!” lol.
Your comment of birds leaving out reminds me of all the times someone slammed the door and caused that. My wife and I used to drop the other at the far end on the road then drive around to the other end and quietly work towards each other, each of us with a good dog. A lot of people cannot tell any difference or care, as you said, and the fact it’s a family farm doesn’t automatically mean that they are wild birds was one of my points. A local, Virginia, doctor had a couple of farms near Gregory that a lot of people local to us traveled to and paid $1200 for 3 days 20 years ago, to shoot wild pheasant. That’s how it was sold, “come experience wild South Dakota pheasant hunting”. However, one that was three sections got 2000 birds released on it each year because my friend hauled them out there. My wife went with the doctors wife and a group of ladies for opening weekend there once and was shocked that I declined to go, they wanted me to accompany them with my dogs. She came back with red dots from her knees to her shoulder from being shot on a drive and a clear understanding of why I passed.
 
I hunted buffalo in 2022. My first dream was to hunt the "wild" Africa. After looking at various opportunity, I realised I just did not have the money for a hunt in Zambia, for example. So I made a 180 and turn back my view to SA. I did shot a buffalo. A really good bull that was NOT where it was supposed to be and who knows where he was going. My point is, is it considered "wild" when the buffalo is on the wrong side of the fence? ;)

While there, I also hunted a Blue Wildebeest, a Zebra and two Impala Rams. We also spent 4 days going after Elands but in the end I did not connect with an Eland, I just got a glimpse of one at 420 yards. All these animals were "wild" by any aspect, even with that fence running along the property.

Compared to any other hunt in the world, SA is probably the cheapest destination an average Joe like me can afford to hunt outside my province and have a good chance to don't come back empty handed.

It don't take a lot of knowledge in biology to realize that, with exception of some very remote areas in the world, the number of "trophy" animals in a natural population is very very low. And as soon as you ad a little "trophy hunting" in the equation, the success rate will get even lower.

So, or you limit hunting pressure to a bare minimum, and manage those few animals very well, and hope that the climate, diseases or predators don't kill them before they're ready to go, or you restock in some way.

There's no way an outfitter can book and have killed dozen's of trophy animals per year, with very high success rates, without some sort of restocking and artificial feeding.

I would have no problem going back for another buff and plains game, as long as we hunt on a very large property.
 
Vintageguy said:
My wife and I hunted South Dakota for many years until our farming friends passed away, retired, or sold out to corporations. Never cared for the crowds, drunken hunters at the motels, or hot temperatures of opening week. There are definitely some stupid and wild birds early. I too shun the drives where a bird gets up and four different guys shoot, some out of range and others so close they shred the bird then everyone hollers “I got it!” lol.
Your comment of birds leaving out reminds me of all the times someone slammed the door and caused that. My wife and I used to drop the other at the far end on the road then drive around to the other end and quietly work towards each other, each of us with a good dog. A lot of people cannot tell any difference or care, as you said, and the fact it’s a family farm doesn’t automatically mean that they are wild birds was one of my points. A local, Virginia, doctor had a couple of farms near Gregory that a lot of people local to us traveled to and paid $1200 for 3 days 20 years ago, to shoot wild pheasant. That’s how it was sold, “come experience wild South Dakota pheasant hunting”. However, one that was three sections got 2000 birds released on it each year because my friend hauled them out there. My wife went with the doctors wife and a group of ladies for opening weekend there once and was shocked that I declined to go, they wanted me to accompany them with my dogs. She came back with red dots from her knees to her shoulder from being shot on a drive and a clear understanding of why I passed.
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@Vinageguy - you reminded me of another reason why I hate those big pheasant “Drives” —- all the shooting at ONE bird and multiple Hunters yelling “I Got it”. Regarding “slamming a car door”, the first time I saw that was hunting in Kansas in 1993 (back when Kansas still had Wild Pheasants) - it was an Unbelievable sight to a guy from NJ, really amazing to me still and worth the drive from NJ to hunt Kansas back then and still worth the drive to SD (I just avoid Mitchell).
While I’ve never been shot/stung during a bird hunt, I did see two guys hit with pellets that drew a little blood during a pheasant “drive”, one guy had a trickle of blood on his forehead. We watched that drive from our truck as we were driving to another Farm to hunt - it reminded us “why” we were better off hunting smaller farms. I would Not take kindly to my Wife being shot by anyone - accidental or Not …hopefully your Wife Knifed the guy or slashed his tires (Kidding a bit?) - I can’t think of any excuse for it so thats another good reason to avoid “pheasant drives” they’d be a fist fight for sure. I use to think only opening Day of Dove Season was “nuts” - until I saw big Pheasant hunts.
You make good points about Smaller operations still releasing birds to get their Hunters one action. I don’t think any released pen raised bird would ever Flush 400 yrds away at the sight of a Truck?? But most Hunters that don’t Hunt wild birds wouldn’t know or care. GOOD HUNTING to You !
 
Red Leg said:
I suppose I am colored in my thinking by living on the edge of the Hill country, but I can go to the 777 and shoot a collection of African game from a put and take/ breeding operation for less total cost than a trip through Johannesburg to do essentially the same thing on a similar farm under the same management scheme in the Limpopo. I have no real interest in doing either.
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Does the 777 give steep discounts to locals? Because according to their website they charge $7500 for an impala, $8500 for a blesbok, $8500 for a gemsbok and $15k for a kudu. $45k for a Cape buffalo, $7500 for a springbok, $8500 for a zebra. This list

Only the $38,500 for a bongo or $11,000 for a sitatunga looks like it might be cheaper than a trip to Cameroon with likely a lower success rate might be a "deal" compare to going to Africa.

Are you adding in first class flights to Africa? I just don't see the math where Texas is a deal. Only real benefits I see are closer travel and being able to bring the meat home and both come at a steep cost.
 
A good interview , where the outfitter is being brutally honest, but then most of us already knew about this, and have often dicussed about it.

What is often unsaid is that there are a lot of species which cannot be kept inside fences and will always be wild, even in RSA
 
Nyati said:
What is often unsaid is that there are a lot of species which cannot be kept inside fences and will always be wild, even in RSA
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I highly disagree with this. This is often brought up to downplay fencing, but the high grass on the side of highway outside fence compared to barren ground inside fence during a drought tells the truth to me. You only see warthogs eating it while other game is behind the fence. Maybe a few eland bulls and big kudu bulls decide to escape or an impala occasionally walks through an opening in the wires, but a well maintained high fence will contain 99% of the antelopes. Landowners wouldn’t invest in game otherwise.
 
375Fox said:
I highly disagree with this. This is often brought up to downplay fencing, but the high grass on the side of highway outside fence compared to barren ground inside fence during a drought tells the truth to me. You only see warthogs eating it while other game is behind the fence. Maybe a few eland bulls and big kudu bulls decide to escape or an impala occasionally walks through an opening in the wires, but a well maintained high fence will contain 99% of the antelopes. Landowners wouldn’t invest in game otherwise.
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I never said antelopes, there are many animals which are not antelopes, which will not be contained by a fence.

Baboon, bushpig, caracal, Genet, Hyaenas ...
 
Qc_BearHunter said:
I hunted buffalo in 2022. My first dream was to hunt the "wild" Africa. After looking at various opportunity, I realised I just did not have the money for a hunt in Zambia, for example. So I made a 180 and turn back my view to SA. I did shot a buffalo. A really good bull that was NOT where it was supposed to be and who knows where he was going. My point is, is it considered "wild" when the buffalo is on the wrong side of the fence? ;)

While there, I also hunted a Blue Wildebeest, a Zebra and two Impala Rams. We also spent 4 days going after Elands but in the end I did not connect with an Eland, I just got a glimpse of one at 420 yards. All these animals were "wild" by any aspect, even with that fence running along the property.

Compared to any other hunt in the world, SA is probably the cheapest destination an average Joe like me can afford to hunt outside my province and have a good chance to don't come back empty handed.

It don't take a lot of knowledge in biology to realize that, with exception of some very remote areas in the world, the number of "trophy" animals in a natural population is very very low. And as soon as you ad a little "trophy hunting" in the equation, the success rate will get even lower.

So, or you limit hunting pressure to a bare minimum, and manage those few animals very well, and hope that the climate, diseases or predators don't kill them before they're ready to go, or you restock in some way.

There's no way an outfitter can book and have killed dozen's of trophy animals per year, with very high success rates, without some sort of restocking and artificial feeding.

I would have no problem going back for another buff and plains game, as long as we hunt on a very large property.
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I think “wild” is determined by how it’s managed. If it was born on property, fights, breeds and lives like a buffalo would in any free range area it’s a wild buffalo to me. If it was born in a small breeding farm, chipped, and released for hunting I’d make argument there are more similarities to commercial livestock. One has value as a trophy to me. The other has none to me personally. I posted a different podcast/video later in this thread. Might watch it. The outfitter is taking a very different approach focusing on quality and age with limited quotas still South Africa instead of the high volume approach. It obviously has increased cost though over the put and take model.
 
Nyati said:
I never said antelopes, there are many animals which are not antelopes, which will not be contained by a fence.

Baboon, bushpig, caracal, Genet, Hyaenas ...
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I said antelopes because they are the main target of most hunters going to South Africa and most are contained by the fence.
 
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