Interesting interview on game farming and Put and Take

[Hunt anything]

A new episode in the series

Does he not think that hunting buffalo in one of the reserves around Kruger like Timbavati is “free range”. Those buffalo have thousands and thousands of acres to roam. He states there is no “free range” buffalo in RSA.
To his point though, people shouldn’t be banned for opinions or questions. He does defend hunting in RSA, I may have misunderstood what he was getting at but that’s on me.
To me it wasn’t a good look with that gigantic whitetail behind him, maybe it was a wild deer but most likely a farmed deer.

 

[DieJager]

That said, bringing in animals to specifically accommodate a high volume of hunters to make your business work is not exactly what I would call good conservation or ethical.

On a lot of things I normally agree with you. With respect I disagree with you on this subject.

What you said is basically, I would argue, the whole SA wildlife model. A lot of SA farms ( not all) restock, some more frequent than others. If it was not the case the price would be way higher and because of that less hunters. Also lot less profitable businesses I would think and less demand. That is the economical argument.

Those smaller areas that now have game animals would be farms, as they were before. Populations would be smaller for certain species. As someone who loves nature and wildlife I rather see game farms and private reserves than cattle. Why wildlife is such a big factor is because they have commercialized it.

That does not mean everything goes and that canned hunts are ok. But restocking animals and shooting them in a pen is different for me.

 

[revturbo9967]

There is almost nothing completely "wild" in the entire world anymore.

We all need to recognize that.

I've been to some very remote places, only to find "native people" wearing Nike and Adidas shoes and western team sports T-Shirts.

"Put & Take" hunting is almost universal, exempt for a few hardy species, that can survive almost anywhere.


You can either accept it, of be prepared to spend a million $ trying to take them on their native soil.

And, if you take them where they are native, they won't be very impressive (Red Stag, for example)


Sad, but (I'm afraid) true...

I would rather take a less impressive native animal in a natural environment without fences holding it in then go for the more impressive farm raised animal. It’s not hard to find good quality trophies is wild areas, just need to look.

 

[Hunt anything]

I would rather take a less impressive native animal in a natural environment without fences holding it in then go for the more impressive farm raised animal. It’s not hard to find good quality trophies is wild areas, just need to look.

Couldn’t agree more! My wife’s cousin came over one day to look at my trophies, I have a buffalo that may be 38” and a sable that was 39 1/2”. The only reason I know what the sable measured is because my PH was so excited about it he pulled out a tape as soon as I shot it.
The cousin made some sort of remark “ I wouldn’t have shot that buff or sable” he only has RSA farm experience. Mine were taken in the vast expanses of the Zambezi delta of Mozambique and are truly treasured memories for me.
I have hunted RSA and will again soon, nothing wrong with it but if I could afford it I would always choose “wild” Africa.

 

[revturbo9967]

Couldn’t agree more! My wife’s cousin came over one day to look at my trophies, I have a buffalo that may be 38” and a sable that was 39 1/2”. The only reason I know what the sable measured is because my PH was so excited about it he pulled out a tape as soon as I shot it.
The cousin made some sort of remark “ I wouldn’t have shot that buff or sable” he only has RSA farm experience. Mine were taken in the vast expanses of the Zambezi delta of Mozambique and are truly treasured memories for me.
I have hunted RSA and will again soon, nothing wrong with it but if I could afford it I would always choose “wild” Africa.

My buff is a little over 37 inches, but was aged close to 13 years. I would bet a large sum there are very few , if any 13 year old bulls running around properties in RSA.

 

[grand veneur]

I would rather take a less impressive native animal in a natural environment without fences holding it in then go for the more impressive farm raised animal. It’s not hard to find good quality trophies is wild areas, just need to look.

Sure, but also being prepared to return home from time to time without having shot anything, what can happen in the wild. We have very limited hunting times. I don't know whether all clients are willing to take this risk, even some of those who only want to hunt in the free wild. It is often discussed on the Forum, before a hunt has started, what happens to the trophies afterwards. This shows that many clients are convinced that they will shot in all cases something. The outfitters have for business reasons to ensure this in many cases, also with heavy game farming.

 

[grand veneur]

This also applies to DG hunting, because game like buffalo or elephants are not sedentary game and therefore cannot always be where we did like them to be. In the wild it can be that you don't have for many reasons such game for a fairly long period in your area. It is not for nothing that watering holes are created almost everywhere, at least a minimum to try to keep buffalo in the area, a game species where hunting demand is nowadays so high that not everything can always be left to chance. Heavy managed herds are also not so rare outside of RSA.

 

[grand veneur]

The Zambezi Delta, so often cited as wilderness by some, was a ruin after the civil war in Mozambique. In the mid-1990s, we could not move freely there because of mines and the buffalo population was very small. The current buffalo population in some areas of Mozambique is the result of a successful management.

 

[Hunt anything]

@grand veneur , I think you are confusing managed and farmed. The millions of whitetail deer in the US are managed through bag limits, sex restrictions, seasons and in some cases size. There are some farmed whitetail but most are on wide open areas where their only impediments are how far their legs will take them but they are managed.
In a population that is not managed they won’t be around for long, the American bison, in Africa the quagga and blaubok are examples

 

[grand veneur]

@grand veneur , I think you are confusing managed and farmed. The millions of whitetail deer in the US are managed through bag limits, sex restrictions, seasons and in some cases size. There are some farmed whitetail but most are on wide open areas where their only impediments are how far their legs will take them but they are managed.

No, I do make the distinction, but when hundreds of buffalo are relocated from a breeding area in RSA, or no matter from where, to Mozambique, the difference with farming is not that great.

 

[Red Leg]

I suppose I am colored in my thinking by living on the edge of the Hill country, but I can go to the 777 and shoot a collection of African game from a put and take/ breeding operation for less total cost than a trip through Johannesburg to do essentially the same thing on a similar farm under the same management scheme in the Limpopo. I have no real interest in doing either. There are indeed large enough properties in South Africa where self-sustaining populations of several species exist. But I think the video fairly documents the nature of hunting most destinations in the country. I should also note that the European model of charging is becoming ever more prevalent in SA where extra cost above a baseline is charged. This is particularly true with kudu at the moment.

This charging model creates a totally different relationship with ones PH. In a wilderness area, the PH is doing everything in his power to get his client the best possible trophy that the area, conditions, and time permit. On some game farms in SA the discussion can easily devolve into the extra charge of those two inches beyond 55" on a kudu.

The Zambezi Delta, so often cited as wilderness by some, was a ruin after the civil war in Mozambique. In the mid-1990s, we could not move freely there because of mines and the buffalo population was very small. The current buffalo population in some areas of Mozambique is the result of a successful management.

Well duh. Of course that resource is managed. Every wilderness or free range area in North America is also managed. Seasons, quotas, sex, and trophy size are used to limit the take to insure maintenance and growth of wildlife resources. That is very different than raising animals in a pen - however large the pen may be.

 

[grand veneur]

I suppose I am colored in my thinking by living on the edge of the Hill country, but I can go to the 777 and shoot a collection of African game from a put and take/ breeding operation for less total cost than a trip through Johannesburg to do essentially the same thing on a similar farm under the same management scheme in the Limpopo. I have no real interest in doing either. There are indeed large enough properties in South Africa where self-sustaining populations of several species exist. But I think the video fairly documents the nature of hunting most destinations in the country. I should also note that the European model of charging is becoming ever more prevalent in SA where extra cost above a baseline is charged. This is particularly true with kudu at the moment.

This charging model creates a totally different relationship with ones PH. In a wilderness area, the PH is doing everything in his power to get his client the best possible trophy that the area, conditions, and time permit. On some game farms in SA the discussion can easily devolve into the extra charge of those two inches beyond 55" on a kudu.

Well duh. Of course that resource is managed. Every wilderness or free range area in North America is also managed. Seasons, quotas, sex, and trophy size are used to limit the take to insure maintenance and growth of wildlife resources. That is very different than raising animals in a pen - however large the pen may be.

Sure, but the transition from management to farming can happen quickly if there are various interests involved and there is to satisfy a great demand.

 

[Hunt anything]

No, I do make the distinction, but when hundreds of buffalo are relocated from a breeding area in RSA, or no matter from where, to Mozambique, the difference with farming is not that great.

Didn’t realize buffalo were transplanted to Mozambique from South Africa, but the genetics of the buffalo I’ve seen in South Africa and the ones in Mozambique don’t look the same to me.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

This always devolves into conflation of issues (either intentional or unintentional) and whataboutisms.

 

[WAB]

This always devolves into conflation of issues (either intentional or unintentional) and whataboutisms.

Exactly. Put and take may not be your thing, it’s certainly not mine, but what in the world is wrong with raising an animal to harvest it? You may validly question calling it hunting in extreme cases, but I just can’t see the difference vs a chicken or a cow.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Exactly. Put and take may not be your thing, it’s certainly not mine, but what in the world is wrong with raising an animal to harvest it? You may validly question calling it hunting in extreme cases, but I just can’t see the difference vs a chicken or a cow.

To be clear on my part, I do see a huge difference between the agricultural practice of raising and butchering of domesticated livestock for the purpose of human consumption and the practice of managing wildlife for the purpose of conservation/hunting/proliferation/ preservation of species.

Conflation does occur on both sides of the argument. It is not fair to lump all South African operators into one group. That’s not fair. There are plenty of operators in RSA that I would be happy to hunt with. Many of them are sponsors of this site. That said, the conflation I was referring to was that which occurs on the other side of the argument. Those who see no difference between actual put and take practices and hunting “wild areas”. Obviously there are gradations of hunting in Africa.

I have no problem with a fence where it is needed/required IF the practices behind it are proper. That is, if conservation is the main goal. I have no problem with the fact that animals need to brought in from time to time for genetic health or in the event of catastrophe to establish new populations or establish new populations on new properties. Populations that ideally are breeding and self sustaining if at all possible.

That’s where I stand on it.

 

[revturbo9967]

Sure, but also being prepared to return home from time to time without having shot anything, what can happen in the wild. We have very limited hunting times. I don't know whether all clients are willing to take this risk, even some of those who only want to hunt in the free wild. It is often discussed on the Forum, before a hunt has started, what happens to the trophies afterwards. This shows that many clients are convinced that they will shot in all cases something.

I think those who cant prepare themselves to go home empty handed need to take up other hobbies. Many flock to western states full well knowing they will go home empty handed . Why is it so different in Africa? Right now an elk hunt cost the same amount as a free range plains game hunt in Namibia or some unfenced areas of SA.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Maybe this isn't relevant to this thread but tacking onto the idea that resources are managed - even in wild areas...

It came up on a different thread a while back that during 2023 and 2024, the State of Alaska killed 175 brown bears, five black bears, and 19 wolves across SW Alaska as a part of its predator control program, primarily trying to jump start the Mulchatna caribou herd. I have opinions about how it got to this point, but that's not germane to the point I am making which is that even in truly wild areas things are or can be heavily managed. Yes, the goal of the predator control effort is to eliminate pressure on the Mulchatna caribou herd, but you can bet it's also have an impact on the moose population too, which is already fairly robust. So for someone paying to come to my neck of the woods for a moose hunt in the coming years, and say you bag a nice 64"er, who's to say you didn't get a moose that made it to adulthood because the state decided to kill off a whole lot of bears and wolves?

BTW, they want to do the same thing this year but currently it's held up in court...

 

[WAB]

To be clear on my part, I do see a huge difference between the agricultural practice of raising and butchering of domesticated livestock for the purpose of human consumption and the practice of managing wildlife for the purpose of conservation/hunting/proliferation/ preservation of species.

Conflation does occur on both sides of the argument. It is not fair to lump all South African operators into one group. That’s not fair. There are plenty of operators in RSA that I would be happy to hunt with. Many of them are sponsors of this site. That said, the conflation I was referring to was that which occurs on the other side of the argument. Those who see no difference between actual put and take practices and hunting “wild areas”. Obviously there are gradations of hunting in Africa.

I have no problem with a fence where it is needed/required IF the practices behind it are proper. That is, if conservation is the main goal. I have no problem with the fact that animals need to brought in from time to time for genetic health or in the event of catastrophe to establish new populations or establish new populations on new properties. Populations that ideally are breeding and self sustaining if at all possible.

That’s where I stand on it.

But they are farmers, they have just converted from grain or beef to kudu et al. They have to make a return on investment. Their operations are cash generating first, conservation is a nice byproduct of it happens. You may not want to participate, as I don’t, but what is actually wrong with it as long as it is represented honestly?

 

[HankBuck]

No, I do make the distinction, but when hundreds of buffalo are relocated from a breeding area in RSA, or no matter from where, to Mozambique, the difference with farming is not that great.

@grand veneur - does a “Fence” make a difference or distinction? Is there a difference between “raising” animals in an enclosure or captive breeding program and then Releasing into the Wild —- a completely UNfenced area - where they may roam wherever they want, and are exposed to all other dangers of the wild - predators etc.. In the U.S. most all Farm bred & raised Deer are ALWAYS hunted behind a fence, even if sold to another Outfitter - they are released into a High Fence area. I’m not certain but would think that whitetail deer, released into Wild UNfenced areas would survive the elements and predators about the same as wild deer and perhaps pass on their carefully managed genetics but Never with the same results achieved behind Fenced in areas. A Fence is a critical part of captive breeding programs and consistent game populations. I understand why if your business and livelihood depends on Hunter Success - a High Fence is the best way to make money and have Hunters consistently go home with “trophies”.