The ethics discussion of hunting...

[Royalty01]

Although my uncle was a celebrated and award winning hunter, there are family members and friends who keep putting down people who hunt for sport. I tell them that it’s ONLY their opinion and not a fact that hunting is cruel, barbaric, evil, etc.... That hunting is indeed a sport which takes a huge amount of skill, patience, and dedication. I would like to hear all of your responses, so I have more ammunition to defend this sport in future conversations. Thanks!

 

[375Fox]

I try to focus on the conservation aspect rather than the act of hunting itself to defend hunting. There are a ton of things you can google. I think the 24 lion project in Mozambique is a huge conservation achievement funded by hunting and very recent. Bubye Valley conservancy is another huge conservation achievement funded by hunting. The communal conservancy program in Namibia is a good example. You will find good YouTube videos of anti poaching with Zambezi delta safaris and charlton mccallum safaris posts very detailed reports on their anti poaching activities. Markhor populations have been hugely benefited by hunting. If you’d like USA examples bringing back elk into the eastern USA is a good example as is the recovery of whitetail deer. A good way to defend hunting in Africa is to ask your relatives where they would like to visit in Africa for photo safari, they will only list national parks in very safe countries, then ask them where they think the money comes from to protect wildlife outside those National parks. You can also review the WWF’s position on trophy hunting, they’ve refined it to appease anti hunters, but they are not against it because they realize it has value. I’ve been listening to a lot of podcasts lately, I think Steve Rinella and Randy Newberg do an awesome job at showing hunting in North America in a positive light.

 

[sgt_zim]

There was an article posted here a number of years ago, if somebody can find the link to it, that would be great.

As a single example, the article refers to a conservancy at the edge of Kruger Park.

It wasn't a big conservancy, don't recall the acreage, but their allotment of game animals would only allow for about 50 hunters a year. This place also did photo safari, seems like they'd get 25-30K visitors through there per year for that. Anyway, at the time, those ~50 annual hunters represented about 60-70% of the conservancy's annual revenue, and the ~25K ppl on photo "safari" only represented about 15-20% of annual revenue.

The total gap isn't that wide everywhere, nor even this particular place anymore (they changed their price structure for people on photo safari). But the per capita contribution of hunters is literally orders of magnitude higher than it is for people on photo safari. Who's gonna pay even $5K for a photo safari, let alone $10K or much higher? We hunters pay that and much, much more.

What's more is many of the places were hunters go on safari in Africa, roughing it out in the bush, are entirely unsuitable for people on photo safari. There is literally ZERO money contributed to the conservation of those wild places by arm chair wildlife biologists and people on photo safari.

Something to really keep in mind, especially WRT Africa. In 1960, the total population of the continent was about 250Mn. Today, it is about 1.2Bn. Wildlife there, and in North America and Europe, must now be husbanded similarly to the way we have husbanded domesticated livestock. Just like a cattle rancher will never (under ordinary circumstances short of drought and so forth) run out of livestock to sell, neither will the wild places as long as populations are managed and regulated well, and poachers are dealt with swiftly and harshly.

That humans are going to kill animals is a given. There are 2 ways the animals can be killed: in a controlled, regulated environment with permits and tags and annual accounting; or poaching. It is no use at all for anyone to say "well they shouldn't kill the animals." One might as well wish for water to not be wet or for gravity to be other than 9.8 m/s/s

Even in the US up until the 20th century, we brought several species to near extinction via unregulated hunting (thinking American Bison here), and did in fact bring the Eastern Elk to extinction. There are elk again today east of the Mississippi river, but they are Rocky Mountain elk which were captured out west and moved to the east. Conservation by hunters have preserved the bison, and re-introduced elk to the eastern US. It wasn't well-wishering, pearl-clutching, coffee clatchers who did that. It was us, via our money directly to conservation outfits, and the taxes and fees levied on guns, ammo, licenses, etc.

 

[Thumper Mcgee]

In an argument make sure you answer their questions before they even ask them, i.e the fact that the meat from killed animals goes to the lodge and locals, and also that the money from a single animal goes to conserving a massive piece of land that thousands of other animals live on. I also like to bring up that 60% of all conserved land in Africa allows hunting, and also that the PH and his lodge provide jobs to the locals that would otherwise not be there.

 

[Pheroze]

More locally, hunting dollars go directly into conservation efforts. Who else does that? No one.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/how-fishing-and-hunting-fees-are-used

 

[BRICKBURN]

........... there are family members and friends who keep putting down people who hunt for sport. ......

​

@Royalty01 What is their issue?
Did you ask?

 

[Nyati]

@Royalty01 , if you give me an e-mail adress by PM, I can send you about 20 articles on the subject.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Personally, I don't lecture on justification. I just hand them a pack of game meat, jerky, 50/50 bacon or a container of venison burger chili. Converted more than a few to the hunting ethos. Just this year, gave a whitetail doe to a couple Biden voters up the street. At least I'm keeping them on hunting's plus side.

 

[crs]

Personally, I avoid such negative people!

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Out of curiosity, do they have the same dislike of fishing?

 

[Ray B]

Have they figured out that the local grocery store doesn't have a machine in the backroom that 3-D prints all those packages of hamburger?

 

[CoElkHunter]

Personally, I don't lecture on justification. I just hand them a pack of game meat, jerky, 50/50 bacon or a container of venison burger chili. Converted more than a few to the hunting ethos. Just this year, gave a whitetail doe to a couple Biden voters up the street. At least I'm keeping them on hunting's plus side.

Hogpatrol,
I agree with you on this. I’ve found that most people who consume meat aren’t necessarily anti hunting, it’s just that they may have never eaten game meet. So I explain the benefits of eating “organic” game meat and give them some and explain to them how to cook it properly. Remember, they are voters and I’m trying to hedge our pro hunting bet when the next anti hunting initiative appears on a ballot somewhere?
CEH

 

[Pondoro]

White tourists tried to harass me when I pulled out my double rifle for customs at an african airport...anyone experienced likewise..?

 

[Tra3]

I haven’t experienced much for anti hunting sentiment. In both Minnesota and Montana people generally support hunting, especially if it is for meat. The concept of trophy hunting is a different conversation, though.

When I begin a conversation about hunting I find it best to ask a lot of questions first. You frequently find more support and don’t end up starting from a defensive perspective.

I have two mule deer euro mounts in my office. People ask about them occasionally. When I tell them I ate both of those deer, the vast majority are supportive.

 

[mark-hunter]

@Royalty01

May I ask, what is your position in all of this?

I must say, I am a bit confused, reading your earlier posts and introduction, I came to possibly wrong conclusion that you are not a hunter, except that your late uncle was?

 

[Rule 303]

This is an old movie made by Ruark on one of his trips to Africa. Ir does explain a lot about what hunting and population control of animals is about. Might give you some answers to the questions you get asked.

http://www.veritasresearchconsultin...RR5A9vIxAnC82T0a5NKQUEKNoZwCAw_mmvVa-yayFPUfI

 

[Ray B]

I have been involved with the Washington State Hunter education program since the early 1980s and the Wa St Master Hunter program since it's inception in the late 80s. A great deal of both programs focus on the history and ethics of hunting. there is a great deal of research and information available regarding both the public perceptions of hunting and hunters, and the stages of development and attitude through which hunters progress. I can provide specifics if you want to PM.

 

[GuttormG]

Although my uncle was a celebrated and award winning hunter, there are family members and friends who keep putting down people who hunt for sport. I tell them that it’s ONLY their opinion and not a fact that hunting is cruel, barbaric, evil, etc.... That hunting is indeed a sport which takes a huge amount of skill, patience, and dedication. I would like to hear all of your responses, so I have more ammunition to defend this sport in future conversations. Thanks!

Do they eat meat? Case closed.

 

[WilhelmM]

Although my uncle was a celebrated and award winning hunter, there are family members and friends who keep putting down people who hunt for sport. I tell them that it’s ONLY their opinion and not a fact that hunting is cruel, barbaric, evil, etc.... That hunting is indeed a sport which takes a huge amount of skill, patience, and dedication. I would like to hear all of your responses, so I have more ammunition to defend this sport in future conversations. Thanks!

Personally, I don't care what people call it whether it be a sport or just a hobby. I just enjoy it, and I don't need to give any other explanation. However, the world and specifically the West has become obsessed with controlling every aspect of peoples' lives so not giving an explanation is frowned upon. Even if you do give a thorough and understandable explanation people will just shrug it off as being "not good enough." These people are not looking to change their minds, they already know what they believe in and are just looking to (pardon my French) stir shit. I do however agree with 375Fox in that we need to focus on the conservation aspect. If hunting wasn't sustainable, I wouldn't do it. Plain and simple.

There's also a lot of infighting in the hunting community, especially when it concerns free-range hunting and high-fence hunting. Personally, I don't have a problem with high-fence hunting but I still prefer free-range. Many famous hunters like Joe Rogan, though his intention may be pure, is doing a disservice to not only hunting in Africa but the world in general. For some reason, he thinks all hunting in Africa is either high-fence or in a small paddock. Totally disregarding the enormous free-roaming areas throughout the continent, most of which are several times larger than what you'd find in Europe and North America except for Alaska.

 

[WilhelmM]

There was an article posted here a number of years ago, if somebody can find the link to it, that would be great.

As a single example, the article refers to a conservancy at the edge of Kruger Park.

It wasn't a big conservancy, don't recall the acreage, but their allotment of game animals would only allow for about 50 hunters a year. This place also did photo safari, seems like they'd get 25-30K visitors through there per year for that. Anyway, at the time, those ~50 annual hunters represented about 60-70% of the conservancy's annual revenue, and the ~25K ppl on photo "safari" only represented about 15-20% of annual revenue.

The total gap isn't that wide everywhere, nor even this particular place anymore (they changed their price structure for people on photo safari). But the per capita contribution of hunters is literally orders of magnitude higher than it is for people on photo safari. Who's gonna pay even $5K for a photo safari, let alone $10K or much higher? We hunters pay that and much, much more.

What's more is many of the places were hunters go on safari in Africa, roughing it out in the bush, are entirely unsuitable for people on photo safari. There is literally ZERO money contributed to the conservation of those wild places by arm chair wildlife biologists and people on photo safari.

Something to really keep in mind, especially WRT Africa. In 1960, the total population of the continent was about 250Mn. Today, it is about 1.2Bn. Wildlife there, and in North America and Europe, must now be husbanded similarly to the way we have husbanded domesticated livestock. Just like a cattle rancher will never (under ordinary circumstances short of drought and so forth) run out of livestock to sell, neither will the wild places as long as populations are managed and regulated well, and poachers are dealt with swiftly and harshly.

That humans are going to kill animals is a given. There are 2 ways the animals can be killed: in a controlled, regulated environment with permits and tags and annual accounting; or poaching. It is no use at all for anyone to say "well they shouldn't kill the animals." One might as well wish for water to not be wet or for gravity to be other than 9.8 m/s/s

Even in the US up until the 20th century, we brought several species to near extinction via unregulated hunting (thinking American Bison here), and did in fact bring the Eastern Elk to extinction. There are elk again today east of the Mississippi river, but they are Rocky Mountain elk which were captured out west and moved to the east. Conservation by hunters have preserved the bison, and re-introduced elk to the eastern US. It wasn't well-wishering, pearl-clutching, coffee clatchers who did that. It was us, via our money directly to conservation outfits, and the taxes and fees levied on guns, ammo, licenses, etc.

I remember recently reading reviews for photographic safaris in the Selous. Some of the complaints were completely ridiculous. Complaints about mosquitos and tsetse flies and people angry that the animals would *GASP* run away from a vehicle if it got too close. Yes, the animals are wild. What exactly did you expect? They're not zoo animals, most of them have probably never seen people before considering how huge the reserve is. They're either going to freeze and wonder what this strange-looking, two-legged ape is doing there and whether or not it wants to eat them. Or they're going to flee. The Elephants have developed a fear for humans due to the rampant poaching that happened over the past few decades. Luckily, the predator populations have sky-rocketed recently so people are going to see plenty of those.