Slug hunting Plains Game and Dangerous Game?

[Velo Dog]

I wouldn't it was just curiosity since people hunt NA game with slug guns. Though since the dark continent seems to demand a different breed of hunting rifle in general it doesn't surprise me that a slug gun wouldn't work.

Hi Zack Young, and Jwg223,

Your questions are valid and worth asking.
Presumably from your post here Zack - "since people hunt NA game with slug guns" refers primarily to deer and hog, especially where rifles are unlawful for same.
I would guess that a shotgun slug will work pretty much the same on similar sized African herbivores and swine.

At any rate, there is no doubt that as usual, someone will soon state in here that, Alaskan Big Game Guides use 12 gauge shotguns with slugs to follow up wounded grizzly.
However, none that I have traded stories with here, (during my over 34 years living in AK) has ever done so.
Contrary to this shotgun slugs for grizzly idea, the vast majority of Alaskan Bear guides typically carry a .338 Winchester, in either the Ruger M-77 or, Winchester M-70, when guiding for grizzly.
The .375 H&H comes in second for popularity, with Grizzly Bear Guides here, almost always in the Model-70 Winchester (with stainless metal / plastic stock being quite popular for same).
I'm not saying there are absolutely none of these hearty individuals carrying a shotgun to follow up some bum-shot client's grizzly but, I have not heard personally of it straight from any Guide up here.
Likewise, quite a few Guides here specialize in black bear over bait and some of them do use 12 gauge slugs for follow-up but, the majority again just carry a .338 for this as well.

All that being said, I agree with others here that have already said, using shotgun slugs for non-dangerous African game would work pretty well, within it's range limitations.
In thick bush conditions, (Limpopo District of South Africa is one such "thick bush" location) causing most shots to be under 150 paces, and many much closer than that, such a firearm would work pretty well (of course, as with any type of firearm or archery tackle or spear - provided the hunter was a decent shot with it).

Jwg223 - For lion and / or leopard, I will make an admittedly inexperienced guess that, a 12 bore Brenneke slug through the right spot would so wonders.
However, as Brickburn mentioned, it would not meet the legal ballistic requirements, in many if not all countries, where these large cats are commonly hunted.
Laws or not, the day you see a truly wild mature male lion up close in the thick bush, will be the day you make the sober decision to buy a large caliber Mauser.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Jwg223]

Respectfully,re: bear and Alaska

The people I spoke of are law enforcement and have killed many Grizzly. One dept. Uses 3"brenneke black magic, the other uses 2-3/4" brenneke classic magnum (the old rottweil load, basically).

Both have used it to very good effect numerous times.

Again that said, I agree with you that on large dangerous things, I'd prefer the rifle, but there is also merit in a semi-auto launching nearly 1/10 of a pound of lead with 3500# energy with every trigger pull and having 5-9 shots depending on model.

If I were up against a lion...

http://www.brennekeusa.com/law-enfo...al-forces-maximum-barrier-penetration-magnum/

 

[Velo Dog]

Respectfully,re: bear and Alaska

The people I spoke of are law enforcement and have killed many Grizzly. One dept. Uses 3"brenneke black magic, the other uses 2-3/4" brenneke classic magnum (the old rottweil load, basically).

Both have used it to very good effect numerous times.

Again that said, I agree with you that on large dangerous things, I'd prefer the rifle, but there is also merit in a semi-auto launching nearly 1/10 of a pound of lead with 3500# energy with every trigger pull and having 5-9 shots depending on model.

If I were up against a lion...

http://www.brennekeusa.com/law-enfo...al-forces-maximum-barrier-penetration-magnum/

Hi again Jwg223,

No disrespect meant toward yourself either but, I was a Police Officer here in Alaska for 20 years.

Be that as it may, for bashing around with grumpy old bears here, I have to agree with the Alaskan PHs who favor powerful rifles as the firearm of choice.

Someone once said:
"Differences of opinion are what make for good horse races."
(Might have been Betty Crocker).

Kind regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[Jwg223]

Hi again Jwg223,

No disrespect meant toward yourself either but, I was a Police Officer here in Alaska for 20 years.

Be that as it may, for bashing around with grumpy old bears here, I have to agree with the Alaskan PHs who favor powerful rifles as the firearm of choice.

Someone once said:
"Differences of opinion are what make for good horse races."
(Might have been Betty Crocker).

Kind regards,
Velo Dog.

Could it be locations ? Are bears the same size all through AK?

 

[IvW]

As for the Lion attack video, exactly what the hunting industry does not need! The Lion is standing up against a fence, he has nowhere to go, they start shooting, bad shots and he charges. 6 people in the clip, never mind being lucky the lion did not get hold of one of them they are oh so lucky they did not end up shooting one another, it was very close with that poor performance!

I wonder if their was another fence(making it a small enclosure), because the Lion turned around and headed back to where he charged from the first time. No tracker in site that makes me believe this is a clip of a canned hunt!

Very unprofessional!

 

[Velo Dog]

As for the Lion attack video, exactly what the hunting industry does not need! The Lion is standing up against a fence, he has nowhere to go, they start shooting, bad shots and he charges. 6 people in the clip, never mind being lucky the lion did not get hold of one of them they are oh so lucky they did not end up shooting one another, it was very close with that poor performance!

I wonder if their was another fence(making it a small enclosure), because the Lion turned around and headed back to where he charged from the first time. No tracker in site that makes me believe this is a clip of a canned hunt!

Very unprofessional!

+1.

 

[ChrisG]

Regarding the OP,

I have to agree with a majority of people here that it is definitely not a good idea to hunt dangerous game with the exception of maybe Leopard. But even then, pin point shot placement is more important than hitting power.

The downsides of slugs are basically numerous for anything bigger than black bear:
1. Woeful sectional density. A majority of slugs are nothing more than a 1oz. tea cup shaped projectile made of soft lead puttering along at a sedate 1500fps. They lack penetration because they flatten out on impact to something analagous to a lead fender washer.
2. Even when westley richards had the "Explora" cartridge, which was a 735 grain slug capped by a copper dome, men didn't use it on anything like lion because even it didn't penetrate well and was confined to "shooting for the pot"
3. Suitable slugs recoil substantially more than even a .300 Win Mag. but don't have any of the advantages of a rifle. The have terrible ballistic coefficients, only slightly bettering a round ball, they have a trajectory like a slingshot frozen herring (looking at you @Velo Dog ). They are inaccurate (by rifle standards) and their construction is as premium as a warm lump of silly putty.

Pros of Slugs: They can be used where rifle hunting is prohibited

So to sum up, they are just a less suitable, less effective, less accurate, less penetrative, shorter ranged and less reliable than a rifle. But if you can't use a rifle, Its either a slug gun, a handgun (where legal) or a muzzleloader. People want backup shots and a long sight radius so... This is the only event in my experience where a slug is preferable.

Regarding the semi-auto comment, and I hope this doesn't offend, as its just my opnion, but people who hunt with a semi auto, are generally not as careful with their shots as someone with a bolt gun or, even better, a single shot. Plus, I doubt you'll get a semi-auto anything into Africa. I think Americans forget that firearms that cycle and reload themselves are not available on the gun store shelf to anyone and everyone who wants one in most other countries. I used to own a couple AR's, and M1 carbine, FALs and others... but I have no autoloading rifles left in my safe because I don't shoot them as well at game and I didn't see the need for them. I love my bolt guns now. A Ruger No.1 may even be replacing one of the them if I can find one in a nice rimmed caliber. I don't think a semi auto shotgun is the key. I think picking a rifle cartridge that works the first time with like 200% more certainty than a slug is the key.

This is all not to say that it won't work. Much like using black powder as rocket fuel.... It works, but you won't find it in any of NASA's rockets because there are much better alternatives.

At the end though... This is all just my $0.02

 

[lcq]

No disagreement that bushbuck are plains game. The topic was shotguns and use in dangerous situations. Bushbuck and Even duiker are occasionally followed up with buckshot in cover because when wounded, they can become dangerous in manner not encountered with other plains game regularly.

Old leopard medicine was a ten gauge side by side and 0000 buck. (Nine .38 caliber balls I believe?)

Ask any PH what he thinks about following wounded Bushbuck. They really are dangerous game when wounded as the little bastards run into the bush and then wait for yo

 

[bilmcc]

Then they bound out like a barnyard goat ... chins tucked down and pointy end in your direction at a most uncomfortable height!

 

[lcq]

Then they bound out like a barnyard goat ... chins tucked down and pointy end in your direction at a most uncomfortable height!

exactly and those little horns are nasty

 

[MS Hitman]

Firearms
MINIMUM 5400 Joule for buffalo,elephant,rhino etc. .

A typical Remington 12 gauge Shotgun slug has 2989 FT Lbs of energy AT THE MUZZLE


The Brenneke MAGNUM slug has 3014 FT LBS at the MUZZLE.

THEY ARE ILLEGAL and Inadequate for DG.

You want to use them on PG. Go for it.
I hunt with slugs at home all the time. Deer and Elk, no problem.

Not that I disagree with you, but Joules are not the same as foot pounds of energy. Just saying.

 

[rinehart0050]

Not that I disagree with you, but Joules are not the same as foot pounds of energy. Just saying.

5400 joules = 3982.836 foot-pound.

In line with most of the other posters here, and only speaking from my limited DG experience, I'd recommend the knock-down power of a large-caliber rifle any day over a slug. First shot on my lion was a perfect heart-double lung shot from 416 Rigby. It put him down into the dirt, but didn't kill him. As he tried to get up and turn towards us, my second shot knock him down again, this time permanently. The third and final shot to his spine ensured that he was dead.

That experience was enough to convince me that bringing the most firepower you can is always a good idea. Could I have killed my lion with something less? Probably. But I'm glad I had the rifle I did.

Oh, and both of my 2 PHs were backing me up with 500 NE doubles... didn't end up needing to use them, but it was comforting knowing they were there.

 

[MS Hitman]

Like I said, I agree with Brickburn that slugs are not a good idea, regardless of legality on DG. I am thankful for the advancements in firearms and ammunition, otherwise, we would be forced to hunt only with roundballs launched from smoothbore blackpowder firearms.

I was merely pointing out he started with joules and ended with foot pounds of energy, which are two entirely different units of measure.

 

[siutis]

Give Brenneke slugs a try. They are effective against kodiak island bears which can approach ten (10) tall and tip the scale between 1200-1500 pounds.

 

[rookhawk]

As I gaze upon no less than 3 slug "rifles" at this moment being set up for a variety of hunting situations, I'll give another reason why its not so smart for Africa.

The most accurate off-the-shelf slug gun ever made was the H&R Ultra Slug Hunter. It was a low quality POS for about $180. They worked best with Remington 20ga 3" Accutips. They were junk guns so non-stop tuning was required. You had to anneal and harden the firing pin correctly as just one example. They are single shot. They no longer make them so the POS is worth $800 on the gun auction sites now and they are still in need of proper gunsmithing to make them suitable quality, but they are VERY accurate. You also have to be 100% sure you're getting the correct hard-to-find seasonally ammo for them because if you lose your ammo, the gun is about worthless as most slug rifles demand to be fed correct ammo. If you find a box or two of ammo in Africa in a pinch, you'll use all of them sighting in the gun again with new ammo that will still be 50-70 yard accurate instead of 150-200 yard accurate.

So next alternative that is available is the Savage 220F 20 gauge slug rifle. The gun is $750. It has a horrible stock, so you're off to Boyds for a laminate stock for $250 to get something stable. Then the trigger is wonky for fast acquisition so you're buying a $100 riflebasix trigger. Bolt handle is disagreeable so you're down $75 for a better working bolt handle. Then you need a good mount, one exists. The Warne steel mount runs you $75. Then good rings that can handle 70lb recoil which is what it produces, is a set of Warne or Talley rings for another $100. Then you need a good optic for another $300-$500. Don't forget to feed it what it must have, you need Remington 20 bore 3" accutips for it to be accurate so you'll buy a case when you can find them because thats all it shoots with profound accuracy. But slugs drop like mortar rounds so you can't holdover and use them, you need a custom Kenton turret so you can take shots from 35 yards to 200 yards wtih the gun so that's another $150 plus ammo and regulation. Add it all up plus labor and you're into this for $1800 to $2000 now and you have an accurate slug rifle. But wait...it still feeds like garbage and jams, so you might just give up the Africa dreams and go to "best of the west" and buy the accurized version ready to go turn-key with bottom metal, a better metal magazine, positive feed, and optic, etc. for the paltry sum of $3800. Or you go buy a tarr-hunt for $5000 and use schrifle slugs that are all it will shoot correctly for supreme accuracy turn-key.

*Update: I left off the stock work. The better than factory junk stocks aren't properly inletted so you deal with that. Then to hold the accuracy, you need the bottom bolts tuned to 40 inch pounds of torque. Due to the violent recoil of the gun, the stock compresses for a long time so you'll be out there shooting 50 rounds ($1800 in ammo) to let the gun settle in so it will hold 40 inch pounds consistently and maintain accuracy over shots. Might as well glass and pillar bed it too...add another $300. But of course nobody will take this prescriptive advice and they will cut a corner resulting in duplicate expenses and more ammo consumed as they learn these hard lessons before they final have a working gun of high accuracy.


There are a thousand superior solutions out there for half of what you'll spend to actually have an accurate, reliably feeding slug rifle. If it were not for the slug-only requirements in the USA in some states, I wouldn't own one. But I own $7000 worth of slug rifles and they are still just steaming piles of mass-produced, then customized for function, crap. I've paid less money for Best London Safari rifles.

So in light of what it takes to enter Africa and use a slug rifle, is the person a lunatic that doesn't value safety, accuracy, and risk management of a "what happens when I lose my ammo and I'm on a $25,000 safari?". Or, are they just so pound foolish they would rather use a slug rifle than any number of purpose built superior solutions just to say they used a slug?

***Disclaimer: I own slug rifles as a necessary evil to comply with State hunting laws, I do not enjoy them, find no value in them, and on my deathbed they will be the only guns sold for $10 at a local pawn shop. Everything else I own has intrinsic value, accuracy, reliability and beauty that I'm proud to own.

 

[flatwater bill]

Just revisited this old thread. I have no dog in the fight. I am not going to hunt dangerous game with a shotgun slug. But I posted recently about a man killing a cape buff bull with his 5" bbl 10mm semi auto pistol, one shot with a 200 grain bullet: producing 750 ft lbs energy. While traveling in griz country last year, I carried a Rem 870 12ga cyl bore. I had carefully reviewed many videos and presentations on slugs and buckshot before choosing loads. The progress in both areas was an eye opener to me. The Youtube videos I found most informative were by "brobee 223" . These aint your daddies shotgun loads, that's for sure. Some specialty 12 ga slugs were producing more muzzle energy than the 375 H&H. I still wouldnt choose them for buff, but if my choice was either the 12 ga or the 10mm auto, well, that would be different......good thread, reasonable question.......thanks for the original post.................FW Bill

 

[Hogpatrol]

@rookhawk, Same here, slug guns and muzzleloaders only where I hunt deer. I hear you on the Savage, total POS, same with the H&Rs. I have two DSGs, rifle barrels with scopes, a Mossberg 500, 20ga and a Benelli M2 20ga. I shoot the Lightfield 2&3/4 standard slugs and they'll both hold inch to inch and a half at 100 yards. I've shot many deer with both of them. For deer, 12ga is overkill to the tenth degree. Had one and ruined too much meat. The recoil wasn't pleasant either.
Back on topic, from my perspective, a slug gun in Africa on a paid safari wouldn't be the best option.

 

[HWL]

In a case of emergency, a slug can be your life insurence...

 

[rookhawk]

In a case of emergency, a slug can be your life insurence...

View attachment 238272

I love drillings so the above picture would be awesome for many applications....but for dangerous game I'd think its a higher risk level of failure than a single trigger. I guess if you're willing to take the inherent risk and complexity of a complex action for dangerous game, that would be no different, albeit more complicated yet again.

 

[HWL]

I love drillings so the above picture would be awesome for many applications....but for dangerous game I'd think its a higher risk level of failure than a single trigger. I guess if you're willing to take the inherent risk and complexity of a complex action for dangerous game, that would be no different, albeit more complicated yet again.

Your concerns will disappear when the higly praised double rifle is empty and the leopard is 5 feet away....



HWL