Gun Control - The Debate, Argument Or Whatever ...

[Royal27]

Now, just a question for discussion, and I am not going to refer to gun laws in the US or any other country, this is just a general idea.

It seems that we all agree that guns are not the problema, and I mean any type of guns.

The problem is the shooter, right ¿

So, would the solution be that those that are likely to use the guns in a harmful manner are prevented to acquire guns in any way. Those could be people with

A criminal record

A mental illness

Known and proven agressive behaviour

Drug users

Others I´m forgetting.....

You're 100% right. And we have laws that prevent most of the people you mention from owning firearms.

It's a shame the laws aren't enforced properly....

And to be clear, we also have to go a little further to take guns away than most countries as gun ownership is a right, not a privelege. So there does have to be a legitimate legal reason to take the right away, no different than losing the right to vote.

 

[sestoppelman]

Nyati we pretty much already have those things listed on the form we have to fill out to buy a gun, any gun thru a dealer. Problem is, folks lie. And if there is nothing in the National Instant Check System, NICS, pertaining to any of those things, the purchase is cleared. It takes some form of criminal conviction, or adjudication by a judge or other authority to declare a person as having such mental issues that a gun purchase is denied. Barring those things, there is no reason for a person to not buy a gun. It becomes a problem here when you run up against our Freedom called the Bill of Rights of which gun ownership is listed as number 2 in importance by our Founding Fathers. I am thankful everyday that we have such freedoms here and would not trade with any other country on earth for their system. As noted above in NZ, having to jump thru all those hoops and prove this and that, is total anathema to being an American citizen. The problem isn't gun ownership, its a breakdown in our society that has been going on for many years, propagated by one political party in particular but tolerated by both. Liberalism. A mental disorder. That is why we are where we are in America today. I will now go and find a story I read today that explains in part what happened in FL the other day and why it happened and where the blame really lay.

 

[sestoppelman]

https://georgianewsdaily.com/opinion/the-florida-school-shooting-and-the-promise-the-created-it/

Everyone should read this. This is what rampant liberalism does, it destroys everything in its path, little by little and then blames all our troubles on something else other than what is the real cause. This is a prime example.

 

[jeanes]

Nyati, I agree with you and Hogpatrol. One of the problems we have is getting the information properly distributed and getting the proper people to act on it. The Sutherland Springs church shooter had a record of violent behavior but it was never reported to NICS. Cruz, the Florida shooter, was reported to law enforcement 45 times but was never acted on. Mental illness is a slippery slope. Many, many people take anti-depressants and could be judged to be mentally ill, even though they show no violent tendencies. The anti-gun faction could exploit this. HIPPA would also come in to play. These are just a couple of issues. I believe this a cultural problem and will not be solved unless the cultural degeneration is reversed.
Drug, I'm sure NZ has all of the problems that the US does, but it's matter of scale. There are more than 5 million people in Houston and I suspect we have a much more diverse population.

Now, just a question for discussion, and I am not going to refer to gun laws in the US or any other country, this is just a general idea.

It seems that we all agree that guns are not the problema, and I mean any type of guns.

The problem is the shooter, right ¿

So, would the solution be that those that are likely to use the guns in a harmful manner are prevented to acquire guns in any way. Those could be people with

A criminal record

A mental illness

Known and proven agressive behaviour

Drug users

Others I´m forgetting.....

 

[Hogpatrol]

Adam Lanza, the kid with Asberger's Syndrome that killed the kids in Newtown was on anti-psychotic drugs and his mother was in denial of his mental problems yet allowed him access to firearms. What "common sense" gun law would have prevented this? None.

 

[ChrisG]

I don't know if it has been mentioned but, in order to better understand the problem you really should read "On Killing" By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. It is a book that is the culmination of years of study and interviews with veterans who have had to kill in combat. His last chapter is pretty illuminating. Titled "Killing in America". The figures are scary.

In WWII, he cites a study found that of all the men who had seen frontline, firefight combat, only about 10% actively fired their weapons. The rest did not discharge a single shot toward the enemy. Of those 10% they found that only about 2% actively aimed their weapons at the enemy. He labels these "Born killers". The rest simply fired randomly in the direction of the enemy or intentionally over the enemies head. This is likely one of the reasons for the tremendous round count per axis casualty ratings. Something in the tens of thousands per axis casualty.

The US military sought a way to raise this rate during training by desensitizing their recruits through violent images and mental tricks, for instance, in WWII, the rifle range target was a simple bullseye. In Vietnam training, this was changed to a simple silhouette of a mans torso and head. These culminated to raise the firing rate to something like 95% with aimed fire going up to 50%. violent video games have shown a similar effect
If 8 weeks of training in this way was able to raise the firing rate to 95%, imagine how screwed up we are making our kids with hollywood feeding them all of this drivel that glorifies killing and guns, then ironically being so outspoken against guns and violence.

Its true that probably most people who have been desensitized to violence will never commit violence on another. But there is a distinct population (psychologists say about 2%) that have no capability for empathy and can look a person in the eyes that they have just murdered and feel nothing as they breathe their last. These are the people hollywood is teaching that if you have a problem, violence will solve it. I think we should just take all of the idiots in hollywood who live in their little plastic fairy world and charge them for culpability in the same way that hollywood wants to do that to firearms manufacturers.

Do I think most average citizens absolutely NEED one of these:

no. Anyone who wants to argue that this particular setup is a "Sporting rifle" has been drinking too much tactikool-aid. It is a weapon, plain and simple. Do I think they should be banned? no. Banning of one firearm is just a gateway to come after all firearms eventually. Make these impossible to get, the next guy will use a pump shotgun, then ban those and the next guy uses a revolver.... so on and on until everything short of an 1862 assault rifle is banned. molon labe? oh they will if they thought could get away with killing every gun owner who resisted.

Do I think its misuse is the weapons fault? Absolutely not! I think you could give most people a live hand grenade and (not withstanding those who are too scared to even touch it) most people wouldn't ever dream of hurting someone with it.

Wow, sorry, I didn't mean to be so long winded.

 

[Hogpatrol]

An English gentleman circa 1750 with his flintlock muzzle-loading sporting rifle.

It's all relative. ARs are today's sporting rifle.

 

[sestoppelman]

Its not about need though is it? Like the argument many fling around knowingly, well they say "you don't need an M16 for hunting". True, you don't. But tell me where hunting is mentioned in the 2nd Amendment. It aint.

 

[lwaters]

What's hurting is these posts on facebook. Had a friend share one that showed a long haired guy who had a ruger mini-14 in one hand and an a ruger assault rifle in the other. He was using fowl language saying they wanted to ban the assault rifle but the mini-14 was alright. Then he pulled the large capacity clip out of the assault rifle and put it in the mini 14. Everything he said was true but what a screwed up way to do it. This guy really wasn't helping our image. Sometimes I wonder who is really posting this stuff.

 

[sestoppelman]

You never know who is posting this stuff, much of it is fake or the other side. But a couple of things to note in your post. The Ruger is not an assault rifle, its a semi auto rifle. Assault rifles have select fire capability as you should know. He didn't use fowl language, its foul, the other is a bird. LOL. These rifles don't use clips, they use magazines. C'mon man FFS!

 

[LivingTheDream]

Adam Lanza, the kid with Asberger's Syndrome that killed the kids in Newtown was on anti-psychotic drugs and his mother was in denial of his mental problems yet allowed him access to firearms. What "common sense" gun law would have prevented this? None.

Didn't that kid kill his mom before going to the school? There is no saving someone like that.

 

[Jfet]

What goes wrong in a society that prefers to sacrifice a dozen children a month instead of thinking about antiquated rights?

These are pictures I use in my Outdoor Adventure Class that I teach in a public school in Texas to help explain our 2nd Amendment. The picture below is at the Battle of Lexington and Concord in 1775. This is when Americans started to stand up to the tyranny of the government. Though not as well trained the colonist were as well armed.

The next picture is that of the Carter House as it stands today in Franklin, Tennessee. Franklin is just south of Nashville, TN. I lived in Franklin for 5 years and drove by this house often.

On Dec. 1, 1864 if you walked out of that front door and turned south this is what you would have seen.

This was the second time that U. S. Citizens had felt that they needed to stand up to their government. Since 1865 we have never had to do this again. It is important that our government must listen to all of us and thus the 1st Amendment which prevents the government from stopping us speaking. If they want to stop us speaking then we as citizens have the 2nd Amendment, the right to keep and bare arms.

The Battle of Franklin started at 4:30pm on the last day November 1864. For the most part it was done by 8:30pm. The next morning there were 8,000 dead men. Our laws are not antiquated. They prevent this from happening again.

 

[sestoppelman]

Didn't that kid kill his mom before going to the school? There is no saving someone like that.

Yep, she was the first victim.

 

[sestoppelman]

No one wants to disarm you. But not every idiot needs to get a gun.
What goes wrong in a society that prefers to sacrifice a dozen children a month instead of thinking about antiquated rights?
18 school shootings took place this year in the USA (we have March now !)
Today in a school in Dalton /Georgia a maniac's shooting around himself again.
I know the victim statistic in Europe very well and this is also a reality,but yours is unique .
Thoughts and prayers are much to less.
Jerome,it's a mystery to me why this controversy runs under the thread "Humorous Jokes" ??
What does that look like to our opponents?
Foxi
(a fighter for legal weapons,but not for idiots and their kollegs)

I imagine its pretty hard for someone who has never experienced the level of personal freedom, and raised in the cradle of omnipotent govt, nanny state type politics to understand the rights that Americans take for granted. Our Constitution and Bill of enumerated Rights are not granted by govt, but merely affirmed by govt, put down in writing so to speak. So I can sort of understand your "antiquated rights" question simply because you have no frame of reference from which to feel any outrage at the potential loss of rights you never had to begin with. No system is perfect but I will continue to prefer the one that has at its foundation the most personal freedom, that would be America.

 

[Dr Ray]

Most people think they understand our situation but they don’t. My neighbor woke up one night to find two men in his house 1 with a baseball bat he held them at gun point and called 911 1 hour and 25 minuets later a state trooper got there. We have a voluntary fire department that is about it for quick response.
The local EMS ambulance has two vehicles if a bad shipment of drugs hits their town better hope your heart is ok. And yes the lack of police presence makes the area a great place to deal and distribute drugs. There is no counting on police to save you I’m not saying to pass out guns like candy but we have a few veterans and active reservists and training would have to be obtained. And it is our teachers who came up with the idea in the first place after Sandy Hook.

In Australia criminals seem to have more rights than law biding citizens. I wish you well
On this matter.

 

[lwaters]

You never know who is posting this stuff, much of it is fake or the other side. But a couple of things to note in your post. The Ruger is not an assault rifle, its a semi auto rifle. Assault rifles have select fire capability as you should know. He didn't use fowl language, its foul, the other is a bird. LOL. These rifles don't use clips, they use magazines. C'mon man FFS!

Maybe not the perfect grammar but I thought got my point across. I quest i should quit

 

[Hogpatrol]

For our foreign brothers, may be a little known fact but in the U.S., with the proper clearance and the payment of a tax, a private citizen can own and shoot fully automatic weapons. Some

And this is America, land of the FREE. Some videos of probably the biggest machine gun shoot in the U.S. complete with mini-gun night shooting.

 

[ChrisG]

Here's the only issue I see with the "come and take it" mentality. Most guys imagine a bunch of Americans running guerilla tactics and a war of attrition with their small arms... how many of these GI Joe's do you think will actually stand their ground when their house, their families lives and everything they hold dear is on the line. I'm not saying its wrong to want to hold the government in check, I just think the idea of doing it with a rabble of citizens toting small arms nowadays is a romantic fantasy. When they show up at your house with a Bradley assault vehicle, and your response is to pop off 25 rounds at them, what do you think their response will be? 3 25mm rounds out of that chain gun that pepper your entire house with frag from the inside out. How many times does that have to happen to before people give in? It works everytime. overwhelming force is a pretty good motivator to get in line. If you don't think our government would ever do that, look at Waco Texas. How many women and children were killed because a couple armed guys thought they were an "army".
You can't take out a sentry and dissolve into a mass of trees anymore. Technology is so advanced in tracking and infrared,with surveillance everywhere, there really isn't anywhere left to hide. I'm not trying to sound leftist because I really am not. I am just a realist and I really don't see how the right to bear arms is keeping the government from doing anything. If they think you're a threat, a missile fired from a drone at 35,000 ft. is supersonic, you would never hear or see it coming and your house would be a heaping pile of wreckage with the mangled remains of everyone inside it buried beneath.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Here's the only issue I see with the "come and take it" mentality. Most guys imagine a bunch of Americans running guerilla tactics and a war of attrition with their small arms... how many of these GI Joe's do you think will actually stand their ground when their house, their families lives and everything they hold dear is on the line. I'm not saying its wrong to want to hold the government in check, I just think the idea of doing it with a rabble of citizens toting small arms nowadays is a romantic fantasy. When they show up at your house with a Bradley assault vehicle, and your response is to pop off 25 rounds at them, what do you think their response will be? 3 25mm rounds out of that chain gun that pepper your entire house with frag from the inside out. How many times does that have to happen to before people give in? It works everytime. overwhelming force is a pretty good motivator to get in line. If you don't think our government would ever do that, look at Waco Texas. How many women and children were killed because a couple armed guys thought they were an "army".
You can't take out a sentry and dissolve into a mass of trees anymore. Technology is so advanced in tracking and infrared,with surveillance everywhere, there really isn't anywhere left to hide. I'm not trying to sound leftist because I really am not. I am just a realist and I really don't see how the right to bear arms is keeping the government from doing anything. If they think you're a threat, a missile fired from a drone at 35,000 ft. is supersonic, you would never hear or see it coming and your house would be a heaping pile of wreckage with the mangled remains of everyone inside it buried beneath.

Disagree, Full military assault against poor defenseless homeowners and patriots is now on Facebook, Twitter, Internet, and across the world. Waco is a hundred years ago and the likes of it haven't happened since and won't ever again. The government is just as much under the microscope by all media as it's ever been. The rag tag Taliban beat the Russians.

 

[ChrisG]

Disagree, Full military assault against poor defenseless homeowners and patriots is now on Facebook, Twitter, Internet, and across the world. Waco is a hundred years ago and the likes of it haven't happened since and won't ever again. The government is just as much under the microscope by all media as it's ever been. The rag tag Taliban beat the Russians.

Waco was televised. Also, look at the casualty figures of Taliban vs. Russians.... I would bet the Taliban suffered a huge loss of life, property and what little economy they had. A pyrrhic victory is not really a victory. But this was also a long time ago.