Westley Richards 1888 12 bore SXS

[sierraone]

While searching for old but still usable English shotguns, I ran across this beauty for sale at the WR shop in Birmingham. When I first saw the price, I thought it must be a misprint. 1795 pounds is currently about $2550. The description states it has replacement barrels, but no further description on the type barrels. I can only assume the replacements are to handle modern powders. 2.5 inch chambers would not be an issue with RST ammo easily available for order. I am totally lost on the "model C dolls head and snap lever work" though. Even though I won't have the opportunity to go to London (or Birmingham) until probably August, when this gun will long be sold, I would like your thoughts on this old beauty to admire but still use on dove and quail.
@Velo Dog, @Red Leg, @cal pappas.

http://wrusedguns.com/guns/shotguns/303

 

[Red Leg]

Potentially a really good gun. It almost certainly would have originally have had Damascus barrels. New steel tubes make it a modern shooter. That said, she has had a lot of miles and major work. Normally I would want someone with real expertise to check it out, but WR normally wouldn't market a problem used gun. Check the importation costs before pulling the trigger on a sale out of the U.K., though there may be some "returning from abroad" play you can use?

 

[sierraone]

That was my thinking, that WR itself would not have it for sale if it needed a lot of work. But still, you never know!

 

[Velo Dog]

Hi sierraone,

+1 with Red Leg (no surprise there).
And, I might add that shotgun fit (DG Rifle fit as well) is extremely important.
So, be sure it fits you just right before buying.

I've no idea what dimensions suit your physique and shooting style but straight grip (aka - "English Stock") dimensions almost never fit me very well (most commonly, not enough drop at the heel for one thing, causing me to point high with them).
However, many Pre-War built " Prince of Wales" (aka - semi pistol grip) stocks fit me as if custom made for me, no matter what country they are from.
And although ambidextrous, I prefer a tad bit of cast off for right handed shooting.

Most firearms controls are made for right handers and so I have always shot primarily right handed.
Well anyway, I repeat myself but shotgun fit is muey importante, due to the nature of hurriedly shooting at small targets, as they lurch about in the sky.

I sadly don't have a clue as to what "type-c" dolls head or "snap lever work" ,either one, might mean.
Otherwise, a dolls head fastener is a sturdy way to keep the barrels "tight on the face" of a double with repeated firings over the years.
Could "snap lever work" possibly be referring to some adjusting of the latching lever aka "top lever" on this shotgun ?

If you enjoy straight grip stocked shotguns, the good news is that there must be a jillion of them for sale these days from English, Spanish, Belgian and other makers (guns international.com).

Cheerio,
Velo Dog.

 

[sierraone]

Thanks for both of you for your comments. Since I most likely won't get to London/Birmingham until mid to late summer, this particular gun should long be sold by then. But I am looking and will continue to do so and hopefully keep learning. When I saw the price on the WR web site, that's what got my attention! Maybe if Cal reads this thread, he will know about the "type C dolls head and the snap lever work".
I have a Spanish .20 gauge sxs from the 70s with a straight stock. I have never hunted with it, but hope to make a combination quail and pheasant hunt in eastern Colorado in the near future. My son and I had one book for last October, but we had to cancel once this contract became available. When this hunt happens, I hope to use all of my "bird guns" for the experience if the owner/ guide allows me to change guns a couple of times per day of hunting. I also have a Beretta O/U and hope to have a English sxs by then. I like the feel of a Prince of Wales grip but don't own any guns with this style grip.

Anyone else with experience to answer these "British" questions, jump in here!

 

[Red Leg]

As Velo notes the dolls head is an extension of the barrel breach/ rib which fits into a corresponding slot on the top of the breach face. It was developed by Westley Richards, and eventually used by all sorts of makers in all sorts of forms (partially to avoid patent infringement), including Parker in this country. Some were round, some squared. It greatly complicates a barrel job, and is why most such are sleeved. The dolls head is a form of "third fastener". There were "hidden" fasteners which were simple lugs which fit into the face of the action; cross bolts as used by Greener and most German makers; and the complex "rising bite" used by Rigby on their very best rifles. As to "type C", I am sure it refers to a specific shape of extension, but I'll find the exact type when I can poke into the bookcase later today. Haven't a clue about "snap lever work". Though this is clearly an Anson and Deeley box lock. British SxS's do typically have less drop at heel than American guns. They come from a driven bird tradition where birds are in bound and typically high. American and German guns tend to mirror dimensions of an all purpose gun for feather and fur. A bit more drop aids aimed rather than more instinctive shooting. Remember, almost any stock issue can be fixed by a good stock man. My Stephen Grant side lever was very difficult to shoot. The comb was so high that I felt that I was looking down at the tubes. I had it bent downward 1/4 " and it now shoots like it was bespoke.

Chuck Hawks has a basic PDF terminology primer. http://www.chuckhawks.com/double_gun_terminology.html On ebay, Amazon, or ABE books, I am sure you can find a copy of Diggory Hadoke's "Vintage Guns for the Modern Shot". It is the best Primer yet written on how not to get burned buying an older English SxS. It is an invaluable resource. http://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Guns-Modern-Diggory-Hadoke-ebook/dp/B001IKJLI8

I warn you, however, you are about to embark into a world of madness . Expensive madness.

 

[sierraone]

I will slowly wade into this new territory. If I can find ONE that is gorgeous, a shooter and affordable, I will stop there.............I hope!

 

[Velo Dog]

If the Pre-War "Prince of Wales" stocked European built doubles appeal to you, do examine any Linder made one (Prussian) that you might get the chance at.

The later ones (slightly before WW-I) in smokeless design (House of Linder was a successful maker of higher grade Damascus - proofed for BP guns) are IMO almost comparable to better grade English doubles but for perhaps half the price, at the moment.

Sadly however, Linders have been "discovered" by unclean souls like me (but with more $ than me) over the recent years and so usually they cost several thousand US bucks today (still cheaper than comparable grade English makers though).

The Brits made/make the best of the best but, their work is not cheap.

I parrot what Red Leg said : "Expensive Madness".

However, for re-sale value, they still beat the living daylights out of fancy cars, 4 wheelers, boats and motorcycles though.

(As I look back over my life, I have few if any regrets because:
"I spent most of my money on well made firearms and hunting trips, the rest I just wasted".)

 

[Red Leg]

If the Pre-War "Prince of Wales" stocked European built doubles appeal to you, do examine any Linder made one (Prussian) that you might get the chance at.

The later ones (slightly before WW-I) in smokeless design (House of Linder was a successful maker of higher grade Damascus - proofed for BP guns) are IMO almost comparable to better grade English doubles but for perhaps half the price, at the moment.

Sadly however, Linders have been "discovered" by unclean souls like me (but with more $ than me) over the recent years and so usually they cost several thousand US bucks today (still cheaper than comparable grade English makers though).

The Brits made/make the best of the best but, their work is not cheap.

I parrot what Red Leg said : "Expensive Madness".

However, for re-sale value, they still beat the living daylights out of fancy cars, 4 wheelers, boats and motorcycles though.

(As I look back over my life, I have few if any regrets because:
"I spent most of my money on well made firearms and hunting trips, the rest I just wasted".)

Outstanding!

And as mistresses go, a lovely SxS is far more endearing than any blond.

And Velo makes a great point, the Lindners, imported by Charles Daly, are fabulous guns. I have mentioned before that I have a hammer 10 proofed for 1 1/4 ounce loads that is an elegant and effective goose and duck killing machine. They are, though, starting to become a bit of a cult gun.

I really think the best value out there is a British A&D non-ejector with a regional makers name on it. They are elegant, perfectly balanced guns, originating in Birmingham and finished by small makers across the island. And the very same gun by say a Telford maker will cost less than half what the same gun would bring if marked Westley Richards.

 

[sierraone]

If the Pre-War "Prince of Wales" stocked European built doubles appeal to you, do examine any Linder made one (Prussian) that you might get the chance at.

The later ones (slightly before WW-I) in smokeless design (House of Linder was a successful maker of higher grade Damascus - proofed for BP guns) are IMO almost comparable to better grade English doubles but for perhaps half the price, at the moment.

Sadly however, Linders have been "discovered" by unclean souls like me (but with more $ than me) over the recent years and so usually they cost several thousand US bucks today (still cheaper than comparable grade English makers though).

The Brits made/make the best of the best but, their work is not cheap.

I parrot what Red Leg said : "Expensive Madness".

However, for re-sale value, they still beat the living daylights out of fancy cars, 4 wheelers, boats and motorcycles though.

(As I look back over my life, I have few if any regrets because:
"I spent most of my money on well made firearms and hunting trips, the rest I just wasted".)

Where did the Mausers and doubles go from your quote?

 

[sierraone]

Double guns and rifles and Rigby bolt rifles.......What to do????

 

[CTDolan]

@sierraone , that's a killer price on a WR SxS and I'm a bit stunned that they're offering it for such a price in their shop.

With regard to firearms terms (old, English gunmaking terms, mostly), this link is the best resource I know of (short of a heap of very expensive books...spent thousands on the same, over time...crazy).

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

 

[CTDolan]

Here's the entry with regard to the Doll's Head Third Fastener:

http://www.hallowellco.com/doll.htm#Doll's

As you can see, it's pretty darn good, especially given the cost (which is none!).

 

[sierraone]

@sierraone , that's a killer price on a WR SxS and I'm a bit stunned that they're offering it for such a price in their shop.

With regard to firearms terms (old, English gunmaking terms, mostly), this link is the best resource I know of (short of a heap of very expensive books...spent thousands on the same, over time...crazy).

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

Thanks for the info. I have scanned their web site many times in the past but never paid attention to the definition section.

 

[sierraone]

Here's the entry with regard to the Doll's Head Third Fastener:

http://www.hallowellco.com/doll.htm#Doll's

As you can see, it's pretty darn good, especially given the cost (which is none!).

Agree with you, those are great pics in showing exactly what it is and what it does!

 

[Velo Dog]

Where did the Mausers and doubles go from your quote?

It's my quote so, I figure I can modify it to fit almost any topic as needed - LOL ....... Well actually, I stole the basic format from another bloke.

Original wording was:
"I spent most of my money on beer and women, the rest I just wasted."

 

[DM Shooting]

Prices of English guns over here have declined over the past few months with the threat of a lead ban and changes at the proof house making them a larger risk.

Others have explained the dolls head well. However if you still searching for info pm me and I'll get you more details I know a WR trained actioneer well he'll have a lot more info.

 

[sierraone]

Thanks for the offer, but the Hallowell Firearms site does a great job with several photos of the dolls head closing into the action. Still don't know about a "type C", but that's ok for now.

 

[CTDolan]

Prices of English guns over here have declined over the past few months with the threat of a lead ban and changes at the proof house making them a larger risk.

Others have explained the dolls head well. However if you still searching for info pm me and I'll get you more details I know a WR trained actioneer well he'll have a lot more info.

A WR trained actioner? Yeah, he'll know a few things about it!

 

[CTDolan]

If I regret anything in life it is this, that I did not go to England when young (when I could have) to learn the trade. It is a daunting thing to take on all by oneself. Hence, I focus on a falling block single loader of my own design (having taken the best from a few of the English designs, and rolled it into one).