Politics

[Frostbite]

Umm.. there is no country of Palestine..

In fact the Palestinians have been offered a 2 state solution several times.. they have declined it every single time..

1947..2000... 2001... 2008...

They dont have a country.. because they dont want a country under the terms that have been offered them for more than 75 years..

Start with Jimmy Carter's book and then go to Ilan Pappe.

There is hope for you.

Take a clue from Netanyahu's stance on the "Two State Solution."

There has never been a chance in hell of a Two State solution.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

And still no lie they can specify by Trump. Sort of like when reporters asked protesters at the "No Kings" rallies why they were protesting. A few could say it was his policies. When asked what specific policies they were upset about, they had no answer.

The protesters don't like Trump. Well, duh... millions of dumb people voted for Harris. They don't actually know why, but their side tells them they have to hate Trump.

 

[Brent in Az]

 

[Doug Hamilton]

We could dedicate a whole new thread to this, but I’m sure you’d play the “fake news” card and feel greatly satisfied.

It would only be "fake news" if the media says that Trump said it, but there is no record of Trump actually saying it. Or signing an executive order proving it. Or anything else that would show Trump was being dishonest.

The majority of American people voted for Trump to do exactly what he is doing. Now it's time for the sore losers and whiners to pull their big kid pants on, deal with their "feelings" and get a life.

 

[mdwest]

Start with Jimmy Carter's book and then go to Ilan Pappe.

There is hope for you.

Take a clue from Netanyahu's stance on the "Two State Solution."

There has never been a chance in hell of a Two State solution.

Netanyahu is no more "Israel" than Trump is "America".. they are merely leaders during a time period..

Do some reading on the history of Palestine and the reason there is no country of Palestine.. If you dont trust the conservative Hoover Institutes data points (they are all factual and historically documented, check out commentary offered by NPR (clearly hard left), or center left Brookings Institute.. Or if you arent into reading, Prager did a 5 minute video (links for all below)..

Why Is There No Palestinian State?

The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is intractable. One binational state is impossible, given that the two sides – Jews and Arabs -- have irreconcilable national projects. The two-state scenario has also proven elusive with Palestinians refusing to recognize Jewish nationhood.

www.hoover.org

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/13/nx-s1-4985829/why-hasnt-there-been-a-palestinian-state

Why Palestinian Statehood Is a Question for the U.N. | Brookings

As the U.N. Security Council prepares to consider the question of Palestinian statehood, Shibley Telhami and Joshua Goldstein look at what would happen if the United States did not veto the resolution, as expected.

www.brookings.edu

The Arabs and the Palestinians have been rejecting the idea since it was first presented in 1947.

In 1993 Israel was all for giving the Palestinians a state.. Yassir Arafat refused..

In 2005 Ariel Sharon pushed an election where Abbas succeeded Arafat and handed over Gaza to Abbas along with additional land along the West Bank and allowed the Palestinians to self govern, purposefully setting them up for their own state... Abbas however, by your own earlier admission became outrageously corrupt, and by 2007 was ousted by Hamas, which killed any thoughts on moving from self governance to an independent state as was intended..

in 2008, the Israeli PM agreed to concede ALL pre 1967 territory to the Palestinians.. the only requirements was that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a state, and that they forgo any "right of return" (Israel didnt want to see a huge surge in Palestinian population in the immediate area due to obvious threats/concerns).. Abbas never responded to the offer, nor did Hamas (there was still squabbling in 2008 as to who was actually in control of Gaza)..

In 2009 Netanyahu made the same statement that was made in 2009.. He'd recognize Palestine and concede all territory.. Palestine simply had to recognize Israel as a state and forgo the right of return.. Again, no acceptance from the Palestinians..

In 2012 Obama asked the Palestinians to recognize the Jewish state.. Again they refused..

Again I'll ask.. how much time have you spent actually talking to a Palestinian? or in the region?

Your thoughts and opinions are not shared by the overwhelming majority of Palestinians.. I can say that after decades of time spent in the region, and several years of working directly with the Palestinian Authority (on behalf of the US State Department).

 

[Frostbite]

They don't actually know why, but their side tells them they have to hate Trump.

I heard them talk about many of these things.

Happy now?

• Pardons for January 6 rioters: His decision to pardon those convicted of crimes related to the January 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol is one of his least popular actions, opposed by a majority of Americans.
• Mass deportations: While a portion of the public backs deporting undocumented immigrants accused of violent crimes, many disapprove of mass deportation efforts that would include those who have lived in the country for many years or were brought to the U.S. as children.
• Separation of families at the border: The "zero tolerance" policy of separating migrant children from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border drew widespread condemnation from the public, religious groups, and international leaders.
• Voters have expressed disapproval of Trump's use of executive power to interfere with independent institutions and processes.
• Pressure on the media and corporations: Polls have shown significant public disapproval of Trump pressuring media outlets that cover him unfavorably and compelling private businesses to make specific business decisions.
• Hiring and pardons related to Elon Musk: Trump's second-term actions involving Elon Musk, including appointing him to an advisory role and giving his companies special privileges, are broadly unpopular. A majority of Americans are concerned about Musk's access to sensitive personal data and oppose his closure of federal agencies.
• Federal grant freeze: An early 2025 executive order freezing most federal grant funding, including for healthcare and small businesses, was widely criticized and temporarily blocked by a federal judge.
• Repeal of the Affordable Care Act: Throughout his presidency, polling consistently showed that efforts to repeal the ACA were unpopular, especially due to concerns over protections for those with pre-existing conditions.
• Rollbacks of ACA protections: In early 2025, executive actions that would weaken patient protections, like allowing insurers to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions and removing the cap on insulin co-payments for Medicare recipients, were met with negative public reactions.
• Trade tariffs: Trump's implementation of tariffs on imports from countries like Canada, Mexico, and China has consistently received negative marks from the public.
• Cuts to social safety nets: Actions aimed at cutting back social safety net programs, such as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), have had a negative impact on thousands of families and were halted by court rulings.
• Environmental rollbacks: Decisions to withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement and roll back environmental protections have been met with public opposition.

 

[VertigoBE]

What one guy with dementia said does not verify your statement--not even close.

I've listened carefully (due to having a few medical conditions that make me vulnerable).

This one statement told me just about all I need to know.

 

[Frostbite]

Netanyahu is no more "Israel" than Trump is "America".. they are merely leaders during a time period..

Do some reading on the history of Palestine and the reason there is no country of Palestine.. If you dont trust the conservative Hoover Institutes data points (they are all factual and historically documented, check out commentary offered by NPS (clearly hard left), or center left Brookings Institute.. Or if you arent into reading, Prager did a 5 minute video (links for all below)..

Why Is There No Palestinian State?

The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is intractable. One binational state is impossible, given that the two sides – Jews and Arabs -- have irreconcilable national projects. The two-state scenario has also proven elusive with Palestinians refusing to recognize Jewish nationhood.

www.hoover.org

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/13/nx-s1-4985829/why-hasnt-there-been-a-palestinian-state

Why Palestinian Statehood Is a Question for the U.N. | Brookings

As the U.N. Security Council prepares to consider the question of Palestinian statehood, Shibley Telhami and Joshua Goldstein look at what would happen if the United States did not veto the resolution, as expected.

www.brookings.edu

The Arabs and the Palestinians have been rejecting the idea since it was first presented in 1947.

In 1993 Israel was all for giving the Palestinians a state.. Yassir Arafat refused..

In 2005 Ariel Sharon pushed an election where Abbas succeeded Arafat and handed over Gaza to Abbas along with additional land along the West Bank and allowed the Palestinians to self govern, purposefully setting them up for their own state... Abbas however, by your own earlier admission became outrageously corrupt, and by 2007 was ousted by Hamas, which killed any thoughts on moving from self governance to an independent state as was intended..

in 2008, the Israeli PM agreed to concede ALL pre 1967 territory to the Palestinians.. the only requirements was that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a state, and that they forgo any "right of return" (Israel didnt want to see a huge surge in Palestinian population in the immediate area due to obvious threats/concerns).. Abbas never responded to the offer, nor did Hamas (there was still squabbling in 2008 as to who was actually in control of Gaza)..

In 2009 Netanyahu made the same statement that was made in 2009.. He'd recognize Palestine and concede all territory.. Palestine simply had to recognize Israel as a state and forgo the right of return.. Again, no acceptance from the Palestinians..

In 2012 Obama asked the Palestinians to recognize the Jewish state.. Again they refused..

Again I'll ask.. how much time have you spent actually talking to a Palestinian? or in the region?

Your thoughts and opinions are not shared by the overwhelming majority of Palestinians.. I can say that after decades of time spent in the region, and several years of working directly with the Palestinian Authority (on behalf of the US State Department).

And why would the Palestinians agree to a "State" of their own where the millions of refugees who were driven out would be unable to return?

Refusing to allow it is exactly how the Zionists have sabotaged all the agreements.

You claim that there is no Palestine.

Gosh, who are these millions of people who want to come back to their country?

You claim to have knowledge but you certainly don't show it.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Zero.

Nobody said that.

Uh, yeah they did. Biden for one said that with almost those exact words

 

[Wheels]

Your experience is contemporary and lacking in history and scholarship and clearly influenced by the Zionist creative rewriting of history.

History shows us that the Zionist Jews plotted to steal Palestine over 100 years ago and Theodor Herzl (the man who started it all) openly referred to the mass murder and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians as..........."Transfer."
Transfer. Sounds peaceful.
This bloody and brutal "Transfer" is now almost complete after 100 years of mayhem. Millions of innocent people murdered and driven out to refugee camps in other countries--their lands, homes, orchards, fields, farms and herds of animals taken by force.

Assisted by England and later America.......the Jews immigrated in huge numbers and their militias gradually took over with superior money, weapons and training and the grand robbery is now almost complete.
This latest great Gaza victory was achieved using American jets, drones, missiles and huge bombs against people armed only with rifles.

I suggest you read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by the respected Jewish historian (not a Zionist) Ilan Pappe.

And don't stop there.........the real history of this conflict is a fascinating story.

Read more books. Share the real story with others.

Looks like there are several others here who have not read history.

You mention that @mdwest statements are contemporary history yet you go back only 100 years. One hundred years seems fairly contemporary to me. There is a lot more history to the region than 100 years.

Virtually every person in the world lives on conquered land. Israel conquered the land from the Canaanites around 1400BC. There are no peoples known as Canaaninites today.

The first time a derivative of Palestine is mentioned in history is around 1100 BC by Egypt. They used the word Peleset, denoting the Phlistines who had five city states along the coast. Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Ekron and Gath. You can find those cities on a map today. The Philistines were a branch of the “Sea People” which included Phoenicians/Lebanon who settled in the eastern Mediterranean around 1200 BC, and gave everyone in the neighborhood headaches.

A tremendous amount of history went on throughout the years between 1400 BC to 130AD. I don’t care to write a dissertation, so I will skip it. During most of that time the land was called Israel or Judea due to the people that lived there. In 130 AD Rome had just put down the Third Jewish revolt and were pissed to say the least. Rome had all the maps changed to Syria Palaestinia. That’s where the word Palestine comes from. A foreign country hacked at the Jews for causing trouble so they changed the name of their country. The term has been used by most to this day. The Philistines as a people basically disappeared around 600BC at the hands of the Babylonians. There is probably Philistine bloodlines in the region but the people who live in Gaza are no longer Philistines but Arabs who moved in. Especially after the Islamic take over of the area around 625 AD

So who has the right to the land. That’s the big question. The Jews seem to be the only surviving race to have the oldest living title in the area. Around 3400 years, compared to the Arabs who started moving in around 1400 years ago. That doesn’t always matter however. Possession seems to count the most.

I would encourage you to go back in history longer than the Zionist Movement that started with people like Herzel after the Dreyfus Affair.

 

[Frostbite]

Uh, yeah they did. Biden for one said that with almost those exact words

Biden said a lot of things and not many made sense.

Read above.

It's been established that Biden's brain is mush.

Nobody has ever said “If you get the shot, you won’t get sick, covid will end with you!”

Nobody.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

You mention that @mdwest statements are contemporary history yet you go back only 100 years. One hundred years seems fairly contemporary to me. There is a lot more history to the region than 100 years.

Virtually every person in the world lives on conquered land. Israel conquered the land from the Canaanites around 1400BC. There are no peoples known as Canaaninites today.

The first time a derivative of Palestine is mentioned in history is around 1100 BC by Egypt. They used the word Peleset, denoting the Phlistines who had five city states along the coast. Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Ekron and Gath. You can find those cities on a map today. The Philistines were a branch of the “Sea People” which included Phoenicians/Lebanon who settled in the eastern Mediterranean around 1200 BC, and gave everyone in the neighborhood headaches.

A tremendous amount of history went on throughout the years between 1400 BC to 130AD. I don’t care to write a dissertation, so I will skip it. During most of that time the land was called Israel or Judea due to the people that lived there. In 130 AD Rome had just put down the Third Jewish revolt and were pissed to say the least. Rome had all the maps changed to Syria Palaestinia. That’s where the word Palestine comes from. A foreign country hacked at the Jews for causing trouble so they changed the name of their country. The term has been used by most to this day. The Philistines as a people basically disappeared around 600BC at the hands of the Babylonians. There is probably Philistine bloodlines in the region but the people who live in Gaza are no longer Philistines but Arabs who moved in. Especially after the Islamic take over of the area around 625 AD

So who has the right to the land. That’s the big question. The Jews seem to be the only surviving race to have the oldest living title in the area. Around 3400 years. That doesn’t always matter however. Possession seems to count the most.

I would encourage you to go back in history longer than the Zionist Movement that started with people like Herzel after the Dreyfus Affair.

I suspect that frostbite won’t be interested in any source not written by a self hating Israeli communist like Pappé.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

And why would the Palestinians agree to a "State" of their own where the millions of refugees who were driven out would be unable to return?

Refusing to allow it is exactly how the Zionists have sabotaged all the agreements.

You claim that there is no Palestine.

Gosh, who are these millions of people who want to come back to their country?

You claim to have knowledge but you certainly don't show it.

I have never been to Israel and have little first hand knowledge, but a friend of mine has been living there until last month, his daughter is still living there. He tells me that there are a lot of Arab Muslims living in Israel, live their lives peacefully, serve in the.military and have all of the rights of any other citizen. Would the reverse be true in any Muslim country?

 

[Frostbite]

So who has the right to the land. That’s the big question.

Big question?

It's not a question at all.

The people that the Zionists drove out have a right to the land.

That was easy.

 

[Frostbite]

I have never been to Israel and have little first hand knowledge, but a friend of mine has been living there until last month, his daughter is still living there. He tells me that there are a lot of Arab Muslims living in Israel, live their lives peacefully, serve in the.military and have all of the rights of any other citizen. Would the reverse be true in any Muslim country?

That has nothing to do with the fact that the people the Zionists drove out have a right to get their land back.

 

[mdwest]

And why would the Palestinians agree to a "State" of their own where the millions of refugees who were driven out would be unable to return?

Refusing to allow it is exactly how the Zionists have sabotaged all the agreements.

You claim that there is no Palestine.

Gosh, who are these millions of people who want to come back to their country?

You claim to have knowledge but you certainly don't show it.

I lived there for a while.. did you?

Whether or not there are "millions of refugees driven out that would be unable to return" is both complex and contentious and varies substantially depending on who you are talking to and what time period you are talking about..

The first problem with your statement is even the most liberal numbers assigned to those that fled are 700-800K.. not millions.. many sources will tell you the real number is closer to 200K..

The traditional Israeli narrative is that the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians that left, left voluntarily.. they wanted to escape the violence being created by their own people.. (wars initiated by Arab states or Palestinians, etc..)..

The traditional Palestinian narrative is that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians that left, left because of direct expulsions and out of fear..

Most historians will tell you that its a combination of both... they cite things such as the expulsion of +/- 50K Palestinians from Lydda and Ramle in 1948 at the order of David Ben-Gurion, while also citing mass murders, by organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah (that you have already admitted to), and Arab and Palestinians initiated wars such as the 6 Day War (and others) as causal for Palestinians wanting to leave the area..

Refusal to allow right of return is something NEW.. it had nothing to do with the 3 prior attempts to give the Palestinians a state, Yassir Arafats refusals, etc..etc.. so it certainly is not how the Zionists have sabotaged ALL agreements..

Roughly half of the people in the world that identify as Palestinians live in Gaza and the West Bank (7.5M +/-). All but about 700K however (and thats a very liberal number.. see above) of the other half (7.5M +/-) have never set foot in "Palestine" (West Bank or Gaza).. they werent born there, theyve never lived there, etc..

The other half are all over the world, but the majority still live in the region (Jordan, Iraq, Eqypt, Lebanon, etc). While most Palestinians want the right to return, numerous polls and political discussions prove that the "millions" you describe have no intention or desire to return.. They werent born in the West Bank or Gaza.. and have never lived there before.. In May of this year a UN study showed that only 33% of Palestinians even prioritize right of return anymore.. a 2023 study showed the number to be 31%.. So, in short, the majority of Palestinians living outside of Palestine dont think right of return should be a priority... its something theyd like to have.. but almost 70% of them think its not all that important..


Your ignorance and refusal to obtain knowledge is clear.. your lack of reading ability is evident as well... and you obviously have done little to no research beyond listening to leftist talking points..

So I suppose we're back to the discussion of stupid or stubborn... you never bothered to offer an alternative.. I guess Im going to go with "a little of both"..

 

[Frostbite]

I suspect that frostbite won’t be interested in any source not written by a self hating Israeli communist like Pappé.

Any source I list (and there are many) that disagree with you would be similarly attacked by you.

Pappe is a world renowned historian and he's backed up by many others.

 

[Betterinthebush]

Biden said a lot of things and not many made sense.

Read above.

It's been established that Biden's brain is mush.

Nobody has ever said “If you get the shot, you won’t get sick, covid will end with you!”

Nobody.

 

[Frostbite]

The traditional Palestinian narrative is that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians that left, left because of direct expulsions and out of fear..

If you had actually read any history on this you would know that they "volunteered" to leave because they didn't want to be killed.

Millions of innocent people murdered and driven out to refugee camps in other countries--their lands, homes, orchards, fields, farms and herds of animals taken by force.

As of mid-2025, there are approximately 5.9 million Palestinian refugees registered with the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). This figure includes the original refugees from the 1948 conflict and their male descendants.

 

[R.N.L]

And you're calling a people who are trying to drive invaders out of their country "terrorists."

Your definition of terrorist is puzzling.

Dismembering children and r*ping women isn't freedom fighting fyi.