Semi-Autos and Public Ranges

[PHOENIX PHIL]

So I've been an annual member of a local shooting range for some 20 plus years. When I first started shooting there, I would guess I was in the majority in that most of the shooters were firing bolt action rifles. There were certainly a number of semi-auto pistol and AR style rifles being shot too, but mostly bolt guys.

Well over the years that has changed. And now us bolt guys are far outnumbered by the semi-auto shooters. In and of itself I have no issue with that. However with that increase in semi-autos has come a decrease in etiquette. It seems at this point no one cares about raining brass down on their fellow shooter. The range has screens that can be put up to help catch some of this brass, but it won't get all of it, especially if someone is shooting from a standing position. But it will catch some.

This has become an ever increasing annoyance to me. When developing loads and practicing your trigger pull, it can be a bit challenging as brass comes flying onto your head, rifle arms, legs, etc. Add to that when I'm sitting there at the bench and someone else's brass hits my nice M70 SG stock or the scope, I get a little peeved. I just see it as having no respect for someone else's property.

But the annoyance of it all is something I've just put up with until now. I was at the range yesterday working on a load for my wife's .30-06. I had put this rifle up awhile ago as initial load development had not gone super well. But I had the gunsmith do one of his accuracy packages (bedding / trigger work) and got the rifle back last week.

Not long after I had started shooting the guy beside me on my left went home and a new guy came in with various pistols and two AR rifles. He was in a few shots and of course the brass storm was putting them all over me. And then after one shot, the brass wedged itself between my t-shirt and my neck as I was attempting my next shot. The result was an instantaneous burn that blistered up immediately, roughly 1" long and 1/2" wide. For a moment I was doing a bit of a dance. But I'm a big boy and I'll survive. My wife however wants nothing to do with going back. Furthermore had that hot brass somehow managed to wedge itself between my sunglasses and my eye, it could've been much worse.

I managed to finish my 3 shot group (which was right at 1" group, so there was that). But at that point I was done. I packed up and headed out. As I was outside of the range and away from the range officer "house", one of the range officers was out there. So i decided to speak with him about what happened. He was nice enough and understood my frustration. But all he could do was complain about how management wasn't giving them enough money to buy enough screens, brooms and whatever else. I refrained from replying with, why do you need more screens if no one is using then anyway and you're not making them. All he could suggest was to call the manager tomorrow

So I did that today.....a waste of oxygen and time. Everything I suggested was that won't work, we can't do that, yada yada yada.

So if you've borne with my rant this far, I have a question for you. If you shoot at a range where this problem I've described with flying brass isn't a problem, please explain the range setup. For instance, is there a separate range for autos? Or maybe they require auto shooters to use some sort of screen?

One of my proposed solutions which the manager dismissed was reserving a few benches to the far left for bolt only. "Nah, we can't do that" was the response.

 

[Trogon]

I have resorted to shooting early on Sundays, or mid-afternoons, but my job enables me to take advantage of that. Otherwise, Saturdays can be really busy. I feel your pain on the AR's, they are predominant on the 100-200 yard range benches anymore. I'm not criticizing as I own a couple that I shoot on occasion. At least the RO's enforce using screens, sweeping up brass and pulling targets. My biggest beef is with guys using muzzle brakes, wish those were designated benches AWAY from everyone.

 

[Firebird]

I shoot on blm public property and the ar crowd are simply awful. They will unload an old console tv or washing machine, get twenty yards away from it and unload clip after clip into the old appliance. Then they leave without taking the “target” with them.
There are other similar issues (ricocheting bullets are common) but no respect or etiquette is a huge problem! Sadly no managers or even law enforcement-just deal with it however you can. I try to go when few or no other shooters are there. . .
Good luck with your situation

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I have resorted to shooting early on Sundays, or mid-afternoons, but my job enables me to take advantage of that. Otherwise, Saturdays can be really busy. I feel your pain on the AR's, they are predominant on the 100-200 yard range benches anymore. I'm not criticizing as I own a couple that I shoot on occasion. At least the RO's enforce using screens, sweeping up brass and pulling targets. My biggest beef is with guys using muzzle brakes, wish those were designated benches AWAY from everyone.

Unfortunately shooting mid-afternoons in Phoenix is a no-go this time of year. We're headed for 110 later this week.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I shoot on blm public property and the ar crowd are simply awful. They will unload an old console tv or washing machine, get twenty yards away from it and unload clip after clip into the old appliance. Then they leave without taking the “target” with them.
There are other similar issues (ricocheting bullets are common) but no respect or etiquette is a huge problem! Sadly no managers or even law enforcement-just deal with it however you can. I try to go when few or no other shooters are there. . .
Good luck with your situation

Yah that's a problem here too. We've got lots and lots of desert that people go out to shoot in. Why they feel they can just leave their mess is beyond me. I know right now due to fire restrictions here in Phoenix area the Forest Service has banned target shooting for the time being. This means those guys have to go to a range like I go to.

 

[JimP]

I feel your pain,that is one reason that I refuse to join the local gun club. But then I only have to drive 15 minutes and be on BLM land.

However even that area is a little crowded with people on ATV's and motorcycles but I'm pretty safe as long as I stay away from weekends.

I haven't been out since last year and can imagine the trash that I'll find when I go out.

 

[JimP]

It would be a drive for you but is the range east of Florence a public range?

We've driven past it for close to 30 years so I was just wondering.

 

[Puddle]

I agree with the evolving ratios of gas guns to turnbolt guns. I suspect it is likely true at most public ranges.

The public portion of our range is actively managed by 2 rangemasters during the week, and by 3 on weekends.
Gas gun shooters are required to use the provided brass catcher screens while at the bench.
There is no shooting from any field positions allowed in the public portion of the range, shooting is only allowed from the bench.
Non-member, public shooters who sign in to use the public range and bring an AR, AK, etc. are instructed how to go about firing from the bench; brass catcher screen, keeping the muzzle bird cage off the sandbag, and policing the brass. The public shooter is warned that burning a front rest sandbag from resting the muzzle on it while firing means they will be buying the sandbag.

The range is actively managed with a tight feedback loop between members, rangemasters, and management. Safety issues get identified and delt with pronto.

I've been doing this long enough, and on a weekly basis, that I have gate privileges to use the ranges a few hours before any are open to both regular members and to the public.
However, come the annual Hunter Sight-in season when all manner of craziness and safety concerns raise their ugly heads, there are 4 to 5 rangemasters on site, and I'm nowhere to be found.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I agree with the evolving ratios of gas guns to turnbolt guns. I suspect it is likely true at most public ranges.

The public portion of our range is actively managed by 2 rangemasters during the week, and by 3 on weekends.
Gas gun shooters are required to use the provided brass catcher screens while at the bench.
There is no shooting from any field positions allowed in the public portion of the range, shooting is only allowed from the bench.
Non-member, public shooters who sign in to use the public range and bring an AR, AK, etc. are instructed how to go about firing from the bench; brass catcher screen, keeping the muzzle bird cage off the sandbag, and policing the brass. The public shooter is warned that burning a front rest sandbag from resting the muzzle on it while firing means they will be buying the sandbag.

The range is actively managed with a tight feedback loop between members, rangemasters, and management. Safety issues get identified and delt with pronto.

I've been doing this long enough, and on a weekly basis, that I have gate privileges to use the ranges a few hours before any are open to both regular members and to the public.
However, come the annual Hunter Sight-in season when all manner of craziness and safety concerns raise their ugly heads, there are 4 to 5 rangemasters onsite, and I'm nowhere to be found.

One of the things the manager told me was the screens won't work if a guy is standing. My reply was then make them sit. His reply was he couldn't do that, after all shooters have rights he has to respect. Seriously he said that. It was part of my frustration this morning as he kept saying he couldn't come up with these rules and enforce them.

That is about when I started to lose it. I challenged him to meet me at the range and I would attempt to handle hang around my bench and handle my firearms during a cease fire. We would take bets on how long it would be before a range officer would toss me for violating those rules. For some reason he did not accept my challenge.

 

[Puddle]

It sounds like you need to do 1 of two things -

- identify who are the rule makers of the range organization and have a chat with them. Clearly, the manager only manages. If that doesn't work -

- locate another range

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

So I've been an annual member of a local shooting range for some 20 plus years. When I first started shooting there, I would guess I was in the majority in that most of the shooters were firing bolt action rifles. There were certainly a number of semi-auto pistol and AR style rifles being shot too, but mostly bolt guys.

Well over the years that has changed. And now us bolt guys are far outnumbered by the semi-auto shooters. In and of itself I have no issue with that. However with that increase in semi-autos has come a decrease in etiquette. It seems at this point no one cares about raining brass down on their fellow shooter. The range has screens that can be put up to help catch some of this brass, but it won't get all of it, especially if someone is shooting from a standing position. But it will catch some.

This has become an ever increasing annoyance to me. When developing loads and practicing your trigger pull, it can be a bit challenging as brass comes flying onto your head, rifle arms, legs, etc. Add to that when I'm sitting there at the bench and someone else's brass hits my nice M70 SG stock or the scope, I get a little peeved. I just see it as having no respect for someone else's property.

But the annoyance of it all is something I've just put up with until now. I was at the range yesterday working on a load for my wife's .30-06. I had put this rifle up awhile ago as initial load development had not gone super well. But I had the gunsmith do one of his accuracy packages (bedding / trigger work) and got the rifle back last week.

Not long after I had started shooting the guy beside me on my left went home and a new guy came in with various pistols and two AR rifles. He was in a few shots and of course the brass storm was putting them all over me. And then after one shot, the brass wedged itself between my t-shirt and my neck as I was attempting my next shot. The result was an instantaneous burn that blistered up immediately, roughly 1" long and 1/2" wide. For a moment I was doing a bit of a dance. But I'm a big boy and I'll survive. My wife however wants nothing to do with going back. Furthermore had that hot brass somehow managed to wedge itself between my sunglasses and my eye, it could've been much worse.

I managed to finish my 3 shot group (which was right at 1" group, so there was that). But at that point I was done. I packed up and headed out. As I was outside of the range and away from the range officer "house", one of the range officers was out there. So i decided to speak with him about what happened. He was nice enough and understood my frustration. But all he could do was complain about how management wasn't giving them enough money to buy enough screens, brooms and whatever else. I refrained from replying with, why do you need more screens if no one is using then anyway and you're not making them. All he could suggest was to call the manager tomorrow

So I did that today.....a waste of oxygen and time. Everything I suggested was that won't work, we can't do that, yada yada yada.

So if you've borne with my rant this far, I have a question for you. If you shoot at a range where this problem I've described with flying brass isn't a problem, please explain the range setup. For instance, is there a separate range for autos? Or maybe they require auto shooters to use some sort of screen?

One of my proposed solutions which the manager dismissed was reserving a few benches to the far left for bolt only. "Nah, we can't do that" was the response.

You might think about always shooting in the left most positions as 90% of semi-autos discharge to the right. Maybe suggest to the SRO they dedicate 10% of the lanes on the left side to bolt guns only. I've been in that same position and I normally try to take the left most benches when doing bolt gun work and stay to the right side when running my semi-autos especially if I plan to really get on the trigger.

Your other option is go with a partner. Have them take the bench to your immediate left and y'all work/shoot off 1 joint bench together. This way you build a little buffer between y'all and only have to fish brass out of your range bag. Just be glad you don't have anyone running a belt fed or something with a giggle switch to your left. You'll really be dancing

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

It sounds like you need to do 1 of two things -

- identify who are the rule makers of the range organization and have a chat with them. Clearly, the manager only manages. If that doesn't work -

- locate another range

Option 2 will likely be the case. You used to be able to go all the way out to 300 yards at this range to post targets. I would do this occasionally. Then one day while doing so, I could hear bullets zipping over my head from the sunken pistol range that is beside the main range. They were ricochets off the metal plates there.

I tried to talk to one of the range officers that I didn't think it was safe to allow this. With a smart ass tone he replied to me that is why we require eyewear at all times. I just stood there dumbfounded. Sometime later as fate would have it, a friend of mine got hit by a bullet fragment in the leg. And what do you know, they no longer let you go out that far. There's just metal plates out there now.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

One of the things the manager told me was the screens won't work if a guy is standing. My reply was then make them sit. His reply was he couldn't do that, after all shooters have rights he has to respect. Seriously he said that. It was part of my frustration this morning as he kept saying he couldn't come up with these rules and enforce them.

That is about when I started to lose it. I challenged him to meet me at the range and I would attempt to handle hang around my bench and handle my firearms during a cease fire. We would take bets on how long it would be before a range officer would toss me for violating those rules. For some reason he did not accept my challenge.

Were you shooting at the Ben Avery or one of the other private ranges?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

You might think about always shooting in the left most positions as 90% of semi-autos discharge to the right. Maybe suggest to the SRO they dedicate 10% of the lanes on the left side to bolt guns only.

I try to go left too. But if you're not there right when they open it can be a challenge this time of year. It's getting hot fast now.

Your suggestion of asking to dedicate lanes on the left to bolt guns only was one I proposed with the manager today that he shot down with a simple "we can't do that" with no explanation why.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Were you shooting at the Ben Avery or one of the other private ranges?

Rio Salado Sportsmans Club in Mesa. Ben Avery is on the west side and at least an hour away from where I live on the east side.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I try to go left too. But if you're not there right when they open it can be a challenge this time of year. It's getting hot fast now.

Your suggestion of asking to dedicate lanes on the left to bolt guns only was one I proposed with the manager today that he shot down with a simple "we can't do that" with no explanation why.

They're too lazy and don't want to manage/enforce that's why. Complain to the board and get some others to file similar complaints or take your dollars elsewhere.

 

[Inline6]

The last time I went to a public range. An older gentleman was doing load development, he looked to be mid to late 60s. He muzzle swept my son and I. I bet my tongue, thinking maybe he had a lapse in judgment. Then it happened a second time, I did not hold my tongue the second time. The guy tried to argue with me the fun was unloaded. To which I replied do you know how many " unloaded guns have killed people"? He got upset with me and left.

I rented an excavator and built a berm on my place and have not been back.

Have shot at public ranges for 30 years, looking back not much has changed. People do stupid things all the time.

With your range, it sounds like they need walls from floor to ceiling. That would keep the brass off of other 98%. IMHO

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The last time I went to a public range. An older gentleman was doing load development, he looked to be mid to late 60s. He muzzle swept my son and I. I bet my tongue, thinking maybe he had a lapse in judgment. Then it happened a second time, I did not hold my tongue the second time. The guy tried to argue with me the fun was unloaded. To which I replied do you know how many " unloaded guns have killed people"? He got upset with me and left.

I rented an excavator and built a berm on my place and have not been back.

Have shot at public ranges for 30 years, looking back not much has changed. People do stupid things all the time.

With your range, it sounds like they need walls from floor to ceiling. That would keep the brass off of other 98%. IMHO

Your story concerning the unsafe shooter is why I give the RO's slack at my range. I see unsafe handling virtually every time I'm there. I can only imagine what it is like for them with the far more time they spend on the range. Reviews of the range have included many negative reviews for the way the RO's treat shooters. To an extent I don't disagree, but as I say I give them slack. I'd rather they were running a tighter ship than a looser one.

As for your suggestion, once again the manager comes into play. One of this comments regarding the screen is they also screen out the visibility for the RO's. To get permanent walls would be a pipe dream.

What bothers me more is this place is a money making machine. I'm quite certain on a given weekend at just the main range, they get hundreds of shooters. Most of those are non-members who pay $15 to shoot there. A pretty decent price for what they get. And that doesn't include all of the other ranges and the fees being paid there. As well as the various shooting events they host.

The money is there, they just don't want to spend it to improve things for the shooters.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I clear the benches on either side of me with the brake on my .300 WM or .375 Ruger. When they move I take it off. LOL

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The range where I shoot is reserved Monday through Wednesday for the paramilitary wannabe Rambos. And they have their own range area anyway (which is much nicer than the "normal" range). I only recall other shooters at the range just once. But I am not out there very much, especially now when loading components are so thin. I cling to my membership mostly to support the club. They do a lot of good stuff with kids and their gun shows are top shelf entertainment.