If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[Tundra Tiger]

This is a little bit of a tack-on to what @Pavel U said, as I read about his mom.

On Easter Sunday of 2012, a doctor went in and cleared out a bunch of my arteries. One of the major ones on my heart was 99% blocked. It now has a stent. My family has a history of heart disease. I was 44 at the time, and an obese bastard who was living stupidly. I live in a remote area and even suspecting something was wrong, I delayed going to the hospital in ANC for several weeks - my head in the sand and hoping that it wasn't what I thought it was? I went snowmachining, hunting, got stuck, had to dig out my machine, and did other stupid stuff - with a 99% blocked artery. In short, I was a huge dumbass (still am about a lot of things).

I don't share this to garner sympathy. Some of you, I am sure, have far more dire health issues you deal with. But for the rest of my life I do have heart disease, a slight enlargement of my aorta, and diabetes hanging over me. None of those things are fun to think about but I am not going to sit around at home either thinking about them or letting them guide how I live my life (other than making changes to improve the odds). I lost a lot of weight, I eat better, I exercise regularly, and... I hunt as often as I freaking can. And yeah, someday, even recognizing that there is more danger than with other types of hunting, I hope to kill a brown bear with my bow. Frankly, I'd not be against the idea of dangerous game in Africa with a bow, but I fear my ability to draw a bow of adequate weight for African DG has already passed me by. So PG maybe someday?

I am rambling yet again. I get what Pavel is saying. Or as Roosevelt famously said: "...and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." This mindset - count me in.

 

[HankBuck]

No sir.. Actually stats and facts do matter because they are what separates truth from blind speculation which is what you have used to make all of your assertions like the one above.. Please get back to me when you have personally participated in some DG bow hunts, and then we can continue with a mutually informed conversation..



A stretch how exactly? I never made any comparisons as to the difference in either speed or the hydrostatic shock produced in comparing a bullet to a crossbow bolt. The only comparisons I made were in regard to accuracy and consistency that modern crossbows are capable of out to 100 yards..

There are now several manufacturers making crossbows capable of exceeding 500 fps.. Additionally, many of these designs now have "hunting rifle" triggers and specialty scopes that meet or exceed the performance of many rifle optics. So, yes, in those specific terms, they are just as accurate and consistent as a rifle out to 100 yards.. That's not a stretch by any measure.. As far as wind goes, bullets are affected by wind just like an arrow.. That's where the proficiency of the hunter comes in knowing his/her's as well as the weapon's limitations in all conditions..

As a lifelong, avid, bowhunter who advocates all legal and ethical methods of hunting, I have no problem with them simply because they are so efficient, and they allow for more hunters to participate in and support hunting.. However, it is for this specific reason that many vertical bowhunters do not regard crossbows as archery gear and oppose their use in archery season..

I thought that I conceded your point that Cross bows are accurate and close to rifle accuracy out to 100 yrds (1”-2” MOA). I tried to discuss that there are differences that affect a bow or cross bow that do Not affect a bullet (as much). The main difference is speed - the fastest arrow is 4x SLOWER then most rifle bullets used. And because they travel much slower then the speed of sound - an animal can react & move after hearing the sound and before the arrow/bolt arrives. This is the difference from shooting a target at 50-75-100 yrds and an animal. The crossbows launching bolts at 400-500 fps are often measured using the lightest arrow/broadhead weights which sometimes can affect penetration (it’s a tradeoff). I think Compound Bows and Cross bows are now incrediblely advanced from 10 years ago and light years ahead of stick bows. I enjoy hunting and target shooting with both. I still do Not think they compare with a rifle despite similar accuracy under some conditions. Most Deer can “jump a string” even from a Cross bow if the distance is over 30-35 yrds and even at 400-500fps the “sound” reaches the deer before the arrow. Assuming a Deer has a 10” vital zone and you are aiming dead center, the deer only needs to drop 4”-5” and its an “off hit”. A deer standing at 40 yrds “hears” the string pop before the arrow is at 20 yrds. Now, that was my point - I might be off by a few feet or yards but I believe my concept is on fairly solid ground and admitt there are many variables - including some deer are so relaxed that they do Not flinch or “string jump” at every shot. I certainly do Not argue that a cross bow is an improvement over most bows and has a slightly longer range. I do Not belittle any crossbow hunter and I have done much cross bow hunting....although I prefer a compound and I “wish” I was good enough to use a traditional long bow (But I’m Not good enough). I think I understand your point and respect your experience - we are actually fairly close in our opinions. Good Hunting to You

 

[revturbo9967]

I thought that I conceded your point that Cross bows are accurate and close to rifle accuracy out to 100 yrds (1”-2” MOA). I tried to discuss that there are differences that affect a bow or cross bow that do Not affect a bullet (as much). The main difference is speed - the fastest arrow is 4x SLOWER then most rifle bullets used. And because they travel much slower then the speed of sound - an animal can react & move after hearing the sound and before the arrow/bolt arrives. This is the difference from shooting a target at 50-75-100 yrds and an animal. The crossbows launching bolts at 400-500 fps are often measured using the lightest arrow/broadhead weights which sometimes can affect penetration (it’s a tradeoff). I think Compound Bows and Cross bows are now incrediblely advanced from 10 years ago and light years ahead of stick bows. I enjoy hunting and target shooting with both. I still do Not think they compare with a rifle despite similar accuracy under some conditions. Most Deer can “jump a string” even from a Cross bow if the distance is over 30-35 yrds and even at 400-500fps the “sound” reaches the deer before the arrow. Assuming a Deer has a 10” vital zone and you are aiming dead center, the deer only needs to drop 4”-5” and its an “off hit”. A deer standing at 40 yrds “hears” the string pop before the arrow is at 20 yrds. Now, that was my point - I might be off by a few feet or yards but I believe my concept is on fairly solid ground and admitt there are many variables - including some deer are so relaxed that they do Not flinch or “string jump” at every shot. I certainly do Not argue that a cross bow is an improvement over most bows and has a slightly longer range. I do Not belittle any crossbow hunter and I have done much cross bow hunting....although I prefer a compound and I “wish” I was good enough to use a traditional long bow (But I’m Not good enough). I think I understand your point and respect your experience - we are actually fairly close in our opinions. Good Hunting to You

This is exactly why I am against anyone shooting a bow past 50 yards at an animal. I see far too many videos of guys taking 80 yard shots on western game only to wound them when the animal moved.

 

[HankBuck]

No, I am not saying that it doesn't happen but to suggest that the author finds deer with arrows sticking out of it like a pincushion it total BS and he knows it

Yes bowhunters do lose deer but it is, or should be, a rarity, that lays heavy on your heart

PD If your friend shot 11 deer! before he killed one, he has no business bowhunting and I certainly wouldn't call him a Bowhunter

I can understand a New bow hunter - in his first few seasons wounding & losing several deer and maybe even 50% of those they shoot but as the bowhunter gains experience that “loss %” should get lower. Hitting a target consistently is only the start of bow hunting proficiency, it takes time to shoot well and consistently under Hunting Conditions. However, if after a few seasons you are still losing more then 10% - 20% max of the deer you shoot - get some help or another weapon. Many deer shot with a bow and “lost” may have died fairly quickly but traveled 100-200 yrds and into heavy cover, blood trail lost, rain hampered recovery etc.. Also, some deer survive a bad hit - shoulder shots or muscle hits - and they can recover quite well.
I don’t think anyone feels worse then an entical bow hunter when the fail to recover a deer they shot. I also would guess that bow hunters lose slightly more deer then rifle hunters - partly because they hunt earlier in the season and woods are “green, leafy” much less visibility and harder to find (see) a dead deer. Rifle season is often after all leaves are off - sometimes in snow and that makes any recovery easier. Regarding “pain & suffering” of the animal I don’t know which Hurts more? Most deer I’ve shot with a bow, ran off fast - tail down and covered 50-150 yrds before falling over and this is for heart or double lung shots - they certainly felt “something” and likely pain. But A few others seemed to feel very little pain (I’m guessin) because they didn’t run off - trotted a few feet, stood alert, confused - while bleeding out and then fell over. I “think” in these instances the arrow hit No bone or muscle - passed cleanly between the ribs, both lungs, and hit very few nerves... I’ve never shot a deer with a shotgun or rifle that did this — all that were Hit ran...a few missed clean just stood there, so It wasn’t always the “noise” that made them run - I think the shock from a rifle (unless an instant kill) might hurt more BUT I’ve got no scientific study or stats to confirm this...only my observations.

 

[BSO Dave]

This is exactly why I am against anyone shooting a bow past 50 yards at an animal. I see far too many videos of guys taking 80 yard shots on western game only to wound them when the animal moved.

Once again, this is an argument against the weapon when the real argument is the level of experience and proficiency of the individual holding the weapon.

I'm sure I can find just as many, if not more videos of rifle hunters making poor shots as well... The exact same argument you are attempting to make against taking a long bowshot is the same one that can be made against any rifle hunter attempting a shot on an animal at a range beyond his/her level of proficiency...

I rarely rifle hunt these days, but back when I did, I kept my shots under 250 yards because that was my realistic limit of comfort, confidence, and proficiency. Any experienced rifle hunter here will probably regard 250 yards as a chip shot for them, which is fine because in all likelihood they shoot a hell of a lot more than I do and practice at those distances.

My personal "effective bow range" range may be 20 yards in one set of conditions and 60 yards in another depending on a multitude of factors including ambient light, wind, stand stability, etc.. I know of many bowhunters especially those who hunt in the West who are quite capable of making consistent and ethical bow shots out to 100 yards in good conditions... All of them practice these distances incessantly and realize their abilities and limitations and applying them before taking a shot as any responsible ethical hunter would do..

 

[HankBuck]

Once again, this is an argument against the weapon when the real argument is the level of experience and proficiency of the individual holding the weapon.

I'm sure I can find just as many, if not more videos of rifle hunters making poor shots as well... The exact same argument you are attempting to make against taking a long bowshot is the same one that can be made against any rifle hunter attempting a shot on an animal at a range beyond his/her level of proficiency...

My personal "effective bow range" range may be 20 yards in one set of conditions and 60 yards in another depending on a multitude of factors including ambient light, wind, stand stability, etc.. I know of many bowhunters especially those who hunt in the West who are quite capable of making consistent and ethical bow shots out to 100 yards in good conditions... All of them practice these distances incessantly and realize their abilities and limitations and applying them before taking a shot as any responsible ethical hunter would do..

I did Not take the post as an argument against the weapon (bow) just an opinion on effective range and agree it’s not a One Size Fits All. I believe there is a relationship between longer range and probability of a miss — but it’s not a hard number - just a “relationship”. Every Hunter decides for themselves. I have found that Hunters on guided hunts with a “wounding policy” in effect are much more careful and less likely to take long range shots. I know I’m always more confident on a 100 yrd rifle shot then a 400 yrd one even when conditions are perfect — I prefer a CLOSE shot. I’ve also Never met any hunter who “backs up” to take a Longer shot then needed....so there must be a preference for Closer shots? (Kidding a bit).
We agree it’s a personal decision by the Hunter based on their judgement, skill, conditions, and confidence level

 

[BSO Dave]

I did Not take the post as an argument against the weapon (bow) just an opinion on effective range and agree it’s not a One Size Fits All.

You may have not, but several who have posted here have made it about the weapon as "inappropriate" for DG, and that's who I am addressing specifically.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

"that can be made against any rifle hunter attempting a shot on an animal at a range beyond his/her level of proficiency"

A few things, to add on to this thought.

First, bad stuff can and does happen, whether with bow or rifle.

Second, I don't have any scientific studies to back me up. This is strictly anecdotal, based on my hunting life, the places I've lived, and people I have known who hunt.

Third, I believe we can all agree that more people hunt with firearms than bows.

It's been my experience that folks who hunt with rifles are more likely to believe they are proficient at ranges that are farther - sometimes much farther - than is actually the truth. I think that can be and is true with bowhunters too. I do think though it's more prevalent with rifle hunters, at least it has been in my experience. I think that social media, TV, and better technology has made some hunters believe that simply having the rifle in hand makes them ten feet tall and bulletproof and super power capable in shooting, when reality would bear out that their effective range is much more modest than they believe.

And none of this has anything to do with the original post: close range on DG with various weapons.

Just my coffee fueled two cents.

 

[Shakka]

I can understand a New bow hunter - in his first few seasons wounding & losing several deer and maybe even 50% of those they shoot but as the bowhunter gains experience that “loss %” should get lower. Hitting a target consistently is only the start of bow hunting proficiency, it takes time to shoot well and consistently under Hunting Conditions. However, if after a few seasons you are still losing more then 10% - 20% max of the deer you shoot - get some help or another weapon. Many deer shot with a bow and “lost” may have died fairly quickly but traveled 100-200 yrds and into heavy cover, blood trail lost, rain hampered recovery etc.. Also, some deer survive a bad hit - shoulder shots or muscle hits - and they can recover quite well.
I don’t think anyone feels worse then an entical bow hunter when the fail to recover a deer they shot. I also would guess that bow hunters lose slightly more deer then rifle hunters - partly because they hunt earlier in the season and woods are “green, leafy” much less visibility and harder to find (see) a dead deer. Rifle season is often after all leaves are off - sometimes in snow and that makes any recovery easier. Regarding “pain & suffering” of the animal I don’t know which Hurts more? Most deer I’ve shot with a bow, ran off fast - tail down and covered 50-150 yrds before falling over and this is for heart or double lung shots - they certainly felt “something” and likely pain. But A few others seemed to feel very little pain (I’m guessin) because they didn’t run off - trotted a few feet, stood alert, confused - while bleeding out and then fell over. I “think” in these instances the arrow hit No bone or muscle - passed cleanly between the ribs, both lungs, and hit very few nerves... I’ve never shot a deer with a shotgun or rifle that did this — all that were Hit ran...a few missed clean just stood there, so It wasn’t always the “noise” that made them run - I think the shock from a rifle (unless an instant kill) might hurt more BUT I’ve got no scientific study or stats to confirm this...only my observations.

Excellent post and I agree with everything that you just said

I bet that most misses and/or woundings are due more to buck fever than anything else since ranges are close and new hunters aren’t used to seeing game so close..

That said, Bowhunters must discipline themselves to shooting well within their comfort zone and not shooting Hail Mary shots

rifle hunters as well but you can get away with much more when using a rifle

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

You may have not, but several who have posted here have made it about the weapon as "inappropriate" for DG, and that's who I am addressing specifically.

It is inappropriate and irresponsible

 

[BSO Dave]

It is inappropriate and irresponsible

You can post all of the laughing or smiley face emojis that you like.. The fact that you would make such a deliberately provocative and condescending post is a sad and reflective statement to your lack of facts and experience relevant to the discussion...

 

[HankBuck]

You can post all of the laughing or smiley face emojis that you like.. The fact that you would make such a deliberately provocative and condescending post is a sad and reflective statement to your lack of facts and experience relevant to the discussion...

This was - and should be - a good post with different opinions and I’ve learned a few things.....everyone should remain respectful.... Criticism is fine but it should be constructive and Not attacking.... Hunters should not act like the cast of “Real Housewives....”

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

This was - and should be - a good post with different opinions and I’ve learned a few things.....everyone should remain respectful.... Criticism is fine but it should be constructive and Not attacking.... Hunters should not act like the cast of “Real Housewives....”

Everything has pretty well been hashed out at this point. Now it’s just the same opinions worded differently. Folks are firmly ensconced in their respective camps it seems. Some are just going on ad nauseam. This thread became counter productive some time ago

 

[BSO Dave]

Everything has pretty well been hashed out at this point. Now it’s just the same opinions worded differently. Folks are firmly ensconced in their respective camps it seems. Some are just going on ad nauseam. This thread became counter productive some time ago

Some are offering opinions while others are offering facts and experience. I do agree with you on one thing in that opinions not based in fact or personal experience is counterproductive...

You are welcome to use the ignore button or change the channel if you feel that you have nothing else to learn..

 

[freefall]

No, I am not saying that it doesn't happen but to suggest that the author finds deer with arrows sticking out of it like a pincushion it total BS and he knows it

Yes bowhunters do lose deer but it is, or should be, a rarity, that lays heavy on your heart

PD If your friend shot 11 deer! before he killed one, he has no business bowhunting and I certainly wouldn't call him a Bowhunter

I never said I find dead dear with arrows sticking out like a pincushion. I said I have found multiple dear with arrows, one per deer. I suspect you knew that but choose any straw to save your argument in face of opposition.
You argue like a liberal.
And now I am done with this thread. Those who like to stick arrows in creatures will continue to praise the activity, those who do not will not be convinced.
Waste of time to argue with a zealot of any persuasion.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

No, I am not saying that it doesn't happen but to suggest that the author finds deer with arrows sticking out of it like a pincushion it total BS and he knows it

Yes bowhunters do lose deer but it is, or should be, a rarity, that lays heavy on your heart

PD If your friend shot 11 deer! before he killed one, he has no business bowhunting and I certainly wouldn't call him a Bowhunter

I would certainly agree that if someone shot 11 deer without recovering any of them they should find something else to.do, but the point is that kind of thing does happen. It happens with rifle shots as well, and many more animals are shot with bullets than with arrows, but the odds of recovering the animal after the shot goes up substantially after the rifle shot.

 

[Shakka]

I never said I find dead dear with arrows sticking out like a pincushion. I said I have found multiple dear with arrows, one per deer. I suspect you knew that but choose any straw to save your argument in face of opposition.
You argue like a liberal.
And now I am done with this thread. Those who like to stick arrows in creatures will continue to praise the activity, those who do not will not be convinced.
Waste of time to argue with a zealot of any persuasion.

The saying goes that when a person loses an argument, their last resort is an insult…such as calling me a liberal LOL! If you only knew

Ding let the door hit you in the ass on the way out

 

[Doug3006]

You can post all of the laughing or smiley face emojis that you like.. The fact that you would make such a deliberately provocative and condescending post is a sad and reflective statement to your lack of facts and experience relevant to the discussion...

Are you like this all of the time?

 

[375Fox]

Are you like this all of the time?

The search feature with his name will give the real answer to that question.

 

[WAB]

Unfortunately the wounding and loss of deer is not confined to archery. The season before last, I killed an 8 pt on our place that had been shot through the back leg with a rifle. Now that’s a crappy shot!

This spring, bush hogging around some longleafs, I mowed the reasonably fresh (last season) remains of three different young 8 pts. This was over about 40 acres. They were over a half mile from the road and unlikely to be road kill, so although I have no proof, I suspect that they were wounded by hunters on adjacent property and sheltered in our high grass to die.

Unfortunately our sport has a significant number of participants who do not learn how to use their weapons properly.