Arrows for my safari

[rookhawk]

It just seems as if people won’t think twice about taking a 450g total weight arrow with a standard broadhead and sending it at an elk 50 yards away, but we start talking about African game and all the sudden we need to fully redo our setup to hunt impalas and thinner game like kudu at 20 yards.

IMO the cost of the hunt or animal shouldn’t be the deciding factor on what arrow you choose to use. The decision should be made upon the ability to make an ethical harvest. So it is equally as big of deal in Africa or your local public spot.

With regards to when the shot doesn’t go right. It seem that the most common issue with shot placement is hitting too far back or too high. You are probably more likely to recover animals hit with a 400gn arrow and a G5 Mega Meat than you are with a 700 gn arrow with an iron will on the end. Those situations benefit more from a larger wound channel than more penetration.

If you want some decent entertainment and an representation of bad penetration check this out. There is a youtube channel of an excellent african outfitter adn sponsor here, Driess Vissers safaris. They have 12+ hours of real videos showing proper shot placement on animals of all species. That's the cool part.

The not cool part is the embarrassing ignorance and incompetence of the featured bow hutners. My nine year old was laughing at these clowns on the video struggling to draw their 70-80lb bows that were rigged for speed shooting their slick tricks, their rage, their montecs, and the damned things would bounce off the animals. SO so many animals would have 4" of arrow stuck in clear as day in the slow-mo video. I pity the outfitter and I feel shame as a bow hunter.

Best way to kill an animal with a bow is to get a pass through. Best way to get a pass through is to have a broadhead that doesn't yield to resistance (good materials, limited drag, strong steel) and that possesses plenty of momentum to keep the arrow drilling through.

The problem with bowhunters is they rely on experience, not data. You can do everything wrong and have the wrong gear while drawing 70lbs and kill every white tail in America. You apply that broken logic to an animal 4x-30x the size and things go sideways. Data said it would go badly, but past experience misapplied suggested otherwise.

 

[Hall]

The problem with bowhunters is they rely on experience, not data. You can do everything wrong and have the wrong gear while drawing 70lbs and kill every white tail in America. You apply that broken logic to an animal 4x-30x the size and things go sideways. Data said it would go badly, but past experience misapplied suggested otherwise.

I rely on science entirely in building all of my builds. I'd pay good money to know if these poorly penetrating builds were flying well. My bet is they weren't.

 

[SikaMDhunter]

It just seems as if people won’t think twice about taking a 450g total weight arrow with a standard broadhead and sending it at an elk 50 yards away, but we start talking about African game and all the sudden we need to fully redo our setup to hunt impalas and thinner game like kudu at 20 yards.

IMO the cost of the hunt or animal shouldn’t be the deciding factor on what arrow you choose to use. The decision should be made upon the ability to make an ethical harvest. So it is equally as big of deal in Africa or your local public spot.

With regards to when the shot doesn’t go right. It seem that the most common issue with shot placement is hitting too far back or too high. You are probably more likely to recover animals hit with a 400gn arrow and a G5 Mega Meat than you are with a 700 gn arrow with an iron will on the end. Those situations benefit more from a larger wound channel than more penetration.

Very fair points. You're absolutely right about the cost not being a factor. I shouldn't have implied that whitetail hunting wouldn't be as important.

I do infact use a heavier setup for all big game. I use a lighter arrow for small game (ground hog, hopefully some African cats) my arrows are the same diameter and similar gr per inch but I use lighter insert/broadhead. I believe in 500-600gr setup with good quality fixed blade bh.

 

[BSO Dave]

My persoal opinion is that arrow weight and choice is overrated. I have had excellent success with CX piledrivers and slick truck magnums. As well as 830 grain combos of vector HMRs and iron will 250s. On the flip side the other guy is camp had impeccable performance from his whitetail setup with both rage and dead meat broadheads.

The thing that frequently gets forgotten is that the average mature northern whitetail is bigger than many of the African species. Kudu, for example, are large but relatively thin game. Any whitetail setup is adequate for them provided proper shot placement. I think it’s reasonable to assess the toughest animal you could realistically hunt and base your arrow setup on that animal.

Although I respect your right to have the opinion that arrow weight and choice is overrated, I would have to disagree. Not only the total weight of the arrow, but the weight distribution (FOC) on that arrow is a critical component to the overall combination of factors that must be present to generate enough momentum for effective penetration. This is not my opinion, but the facts of how the properties of physics affect arrows of various weights and builds and how they perform when a spectrum of kinetic energy is applied... It's also based on actual field results of 40 years of my own personal hunting experiences, my family's, and my bow shop clientele, and learning curves we all had to go through in shooting less effective set-ups for a long time.

You are correct that many hunters wouldn't think twice about shooting a 450 grain arrow at an elk, and they probably shouldn't be in many of those instances especially if they are shooting an expandable. I can't even count the number of times I have seen hunting shows where a big game animal is hit with at least half the arrow still sticking out its side. That's terrible penetration even if it results in an eventual kill. But, it doesn't have to be that way with a more efficient set-up.

The reference you make to the average whitetail being larger than most African plainsgame is not a relevant comparison if the arrows and bow set-ups the hunter is using for whitetail is also either inadequate or underperforming due to a less efficient components of the bow, arrow and broadhead combination. That optimal combination of components in effort to achieve maximum performance should be the goal of any bowhunter regardless of the species.

The example you gave in regard to another hunter in camp having impeccable success with his whitetail set-up and two different types of expandable broadheads is all well and good, but that example leaves out some vital details about his set-up that may perform well for him but terrible for another hunter who's not shooting the same kinetic energy for any number of reasons.. If he is shooting 70lbs. and 29" draw with a modern, efficient bow, it's likely he is creating enough kinetic energy to overcompensate for the friction loss his broadhead choices have created.. I can assure you that a hunter shooting 50lbs. with a 26" draw would not enjoy the same results with their "whitetail set-up".. I am sorry to disagree, but to suggest that any whitetail set up is adequate assuming proper shot placement is just not complete or correct advice..

 

[rookhawk]

@BSO Dave all very well stated.

My kids started bowhunting big game at 21" draw and 27lb draw weight. Let that settle in for a second and reconcile it against a minimum KE chart. Every detail matters when you are pathetically weak, with short draw, and limited KE. Arrow and bow tuning, coupled with razor sharp broadheads, heavy FOC, great momentum, and judicious shot placement are super important.

What does my prior paragraph have to do with adult bowhunting in Africa? Everything. Because the same problem a kid has at 21" draw and 30lb draw weight is EXACTLY the same problem a 32" draw at 80lbs has hunting elephant and hippo. Killing things in Africa of all sizes is a battle of judgement, equipment, and physics.

I've never found the solutions required to achieve either of the above scenarios at any archery shop in America. But the products exist. Math is an unwavering truth. And attention to detail and excellent shot placement for an animals anatomy is key.

Incidentally, my kids have hunted plenty in America and a bit of bowhunting in Africa. They've never failed to have a pass through on game. Knock on wood, they've never failed to hit heart or aorta on any shot they've taken thus far which is a remarkably lucky track record.

 

[rookhawk]

I rely on science entirely in building all of my builds. I'd pay good money to know if these poorly penetrating builds were flying well. My bet is they weren't.

Most bowhunters don't shoot a tuned bow and are literally relying on vanes to keep the arrow from flying sideways. That's true. But the problem in the video footage I watched for hours (and my kids pointed out instantly) is that the arrows were light, the broadheads had lots of cutting surface (drag), and by the fact some even bounced off, they had no momentum. Speed does not kill in archery, momentum does.

 

[joker2400]

Although I respect your right to have the opinion that arrow weight and choice is overrated, I would have to disagree. Not only the total weight of the arrow, but the weight distribution (FOC) on that arrow is a critical component to the overall combination of factors that must be present to generate enough momentum for effective penetration. This is not my opinion, but the facts of how the properties of physics affect arrows of various weights and builds and how they perform when a spectrum of kinetic energy is applied... It's also based on actual field results of 40 years of my own personal hunting experiences, my family's, and my bow shop clientele, and learning curves we all had to go through in shooting less effective set-ups for a long time.

You are correct that many hunters wouldn't think twice about shooting a 450 grain arrow at an elk, they probably shouldn't be in many of those instances especially if they are shooting an expandable. I can't even count the number of times I have seen hunting shows where a big game animal is hit with at least half the arrow still sticking out its side. That's terrible penetration even if it results in an eventual kill, and it doesn't have to be that way with a more efficient set-up.

The reference you make to the average whitetail being larger than most African plainsgame is not a relevant comparison if the arrows and bow set-ups the hunter is using for whitetail is also either inadequate or underperforming due to a less efficient components of the bow, arrow and broadhead combination. That optimal combination of components in effort to achieve maximum performance should be the goal of any bowhunter regardless of the species.

The example you gave in regard to another hunter in camp having impeccable success with his whitetail set-up and two different types of expandable broadheads is all well and good, but that example leaves out some vital details about his set-up that may perform well for him but terrible for another hunter who's not shooting the same kinetic energy for any number of reasons.. If he is shooting 70lbs. and 29" draw with a modern, efficient bow, it's likely he is creating enough kinetic energy to overcompensate for the friction loss his broadhead choices have created.. I can assure you that a hunter shooting 50lbs. with a 26" draw would not enjoy the same results with their "whitetail set-up".. I am sorry to disagree, but to suggest that any whitetail set up is adequate assuming proper shot placement is just not complete or correct advice..

I think you sort of make my point in the second paragraph. Everyone always jumps to saying “heavier arrow” and “more FOC”. I’m not at all saying that these aren’t important, but they are merely a piece of the puzzle.

 

[BSO Dave]

I think you sort of make my point in the second paragraph. Everyone always jumps to saying “heavier arrow” and “more FOC”. I’m not at all saying that these aren’t important, but they are merely a piece of the puzzle.

Everyone is now saying it because it's true.. And it's not merely a piece of the puzzle, but a really BIG piece especially for those shooting lower poundages and shorter draw weights. A hunter capable of shooting 65lbs or more at a draw length of at least 27" is going to get away with a lot more in terms of being able to compensate for momentum lost due to a less effective arrow build and/or broadhead choice than those shooting less..

The funny thing is that the same hunter you mention as an example shooting an elk with a 450gr arrow will enjoy exponentially more penetration and better arrow flight with an arrow build of just 50-100 grains more in total arrow weight and a 20% or higher FOC. Yet, the speed loss will be marginal and the trajectory lost will likely be minimal to none inside of 30-40 yards. Most of these hunters are sitting on untapped momentum that they don't even realize they have at their disposal just by going to a slightly heavier, better proportioned arrow and the right broadhead.

 

[Hall]

Most bowhunters don't shoot a tuned bow and are literally relying on vanes to keep the arrow from flying sideways. That's true. But the problem in the video footage I watched for hours (and my kids pointed out instantly) is that the arrows were light, the broadheads had lots of cutting surface (drag), and by the fact some even bounced off, they had no momentum. Speed does not kill in archery, momentum does.

Every single bow hunter I know shoots an extremely well tuned bow. Your tune is everything. Most if the heavy arrow guys I run into quote Ashby but haven't read the study, or they say "for low poundage shooters". I posted an extremely simplified version of it for everyone to see. Weight is 6th and 12th most important. On primarily rifle culled asiatic water buffalo ribs, with stick bows that don't deliver the KE of todays bows, and of course, with very inconsistent FOCs. Almost all bowhunters, those in Africa included have messed up big time if they've hit a bone that big. The only concession I'd make to this is hippo, rhino, elephant and cape buffalo. The difference in weights I'll show below hit both sides of the scale, light and heavy. From the same bow, tuned to shoot bare shaft bullet holes @ 5 yards, velocities verified over 2 separate chronographs. They are VERY close in the precious momentum (KEs arent close because of squared velocity in the formula, I know). Less flight time means less wind deflection, and a better chance of the arrow not being ducked. If my logic is flawed, please point out where I love learning.

 

[sureshot375]

I’m sure I sound like a broken record on these threads, but I’ve found an easy setup that works great for everything from whitetails to plains game.

I shoot Easton FMJs with the 75gr brass insert and a quality fixed blade. I generally shoot montecs. They fly great and hit hard.

 

[rookhawk]

I’m sure I sound like a broken record on these threads, but I’ve found an easy setup that works great for everything from whitetails to plains game.

I shoot Easton FMJs with the 75gr brass insert and a quality fixed blade. I generally shoot montecs. They fly great and hit hard.

My impression of FMJs is that they are fragile, easily dent, and that the aluminum skin work hardens over time. Upon collision with target/game, they take damage at the head. Last complaint, they erode FOC because of the weight of the aluminum all the way across the entire shaft.

I’d prefer an Easton Axis or Sirius carbon arrow with an ethics archery collar and insert up front to increase FOC, increase point/head/throat durability, etc.

Put another way, I think you’re paying extra to LOSE FOC And you didn’t gain structural integrity anyway.

YMMV

 

[SikaMDhunter]

My impression of FMJs is that they are fragile, easily dent, and that the aluminum skin work hardens over time. Upon collision with target/game, they take damage at the head. Last complaint, they erode FOC because of the weight of the aluminum all the way across the entire shaft.

I’d prefer an Easton Axis or Sirius carbon arrow with an ethics archery collar and insert up front to increase FOC, increase point/head/throat durability, etc.

Put another way, I think you’re paying extra to LOSE FOC And you didn’t gain structural integrity anyway.

YMMV

Sirius arrows and ethics inserts are the way. I bought 3 fmj just to see what the deal was. There dented on the outside, just as my father who grew up when aluminum arrows were the best available warned me.

 

[1dirthawker]

I can't even count the number of times I have seen hunting shows where a big game animal is hit with at least half the arrow still sticking out its side. That's terrible penetration even if it results in an eventual kill.

+1

after watching some of the big name tv bowhunters shoot white tails with their 280-300+ fps bows and getting less than 1/2 an arrow of penetration (on their hunting shows) i have wondered if they ever did any soul searching after reviewing the tape.

i mean, they are shooting FAST arrows at pretty close ranges (40 yards and under) and getting 12-18 " of penetration?!!! how can anyone be satisfied with that level of performance? deer are not big or heavy boned and i would expect full penetration of an arrow on almost any hit.

and so i tend to agree with someone above what stated that the extra penetration/performance is for when everything does not go perfect. we put 2 holes in juice cans so they pour better, it works on deer, elk and bear too. if one hits a bone (other than a rib) that will usually separate the good setups from the bad. the only bummer is, the animal pays for our lesson.

speed does not kill, long holes thru vitals do. if we set up our archery equipment to make deep wounds then we are doing it right.

 

[rookhawk]

The dirty secret about heavy arrows is that they actually solve the problem that fast-light arrows are supposed to cure.

1.) Heavy arrows silence a bow. Thus, jumping the string is far less likely. The super-speed bows are extra loud and they cause more string jumping, not less. No bow can out pace the speed of sound and the reaction time of a deer, impala, or warthog.

2.) The calculators are all wrong. The heavy arrows are much more efficient in the bow. In addition to harnessing energy rather than draining it in the form of sound, it helps. It also helps that the bow is in contact with the heavy arrow for longer which leeches more energy from the bow into the projectile. How much more? My sons bow was supposed to be going 130fps according to the calculators. The chrony was showing 158fps. So much for heavy arrow calculations.

3.) Heavy arrows do not shed their energy rapidly (they have momentum) so the odds of an arrow bouncing off is very, very low. They just keep drilling through. Same analogy as a locomotive hitting a brick wall at 1mph or a motorcycle hitting a brick wall at 100mph. The cycle loses, the locomotive does not.

But speed sells. And garbage sells. That's why archery shops all sell fast garbage. Hard to run a marketing campaign around a broadhead made with real high quality tool steel that looks awfully similar to what Fred Bear used on his recurve or what the Indians used out of flint.


If you haven't figured it out yet. I hate a.) the power of marketing to influence minds, and b.) archery shops.

 

[Hall]

I've yet to have ANY animal duck the string at 280ish fps. This includes squirrels. To each their own. I've also got pass throughs on all the animals I've shot. When I get a chance to hunt larger animals than whitetail and hogs I'll post those results.

 

[1dirthawker]

a buddy of mine shot a moose with a mechanical broad head a few years ago, his words "it was a complete failure" poor penetration and upon the autopsy, bent blade on one head, broken off on another. bigger animals require and deserve a tougher head.

 

[SikaMDhunter]

I've yet to have ANY animal duck the string at 280ish fps. This includes squirrels. To each their own. I've also got pass throughs on all the animals I've shot. When I get a chance to hunt larger animals than whitetail and hogs I'll post those results.

What are you shooting that's heavy and getting 280ish?

 

[Hall]

What are you shooting that's heavy and getting 280ish?

I'm not shooting ANYTHING heavy. There's no need to in my opinion. I shoot a 420gr 18% FOC arrow from a Mathews v3, 70 pounds @ 27" sevr titanium 1.5"s on smaller stuff and iron will solids for bad angles or bigger stuff.

 

[sureshot375]

My impression of FMJs is that they are fragile, easily dent, and that the aluminum skin work hardens over time. Upon collision with target/game, they take damage at the head. Last complaint, they erode FOC because of the weight of the aluminum all the way across the entire shaft.

I’d prefer an Easton Axis or Sirius carbon arrow with an ethics archery collar and insert up front to increase FOC, increase point/head/throat durability, etc.

Put another way, I think you’re paying extra to LOSE FOC And you didn’t gain structural integrity anyway.

YMMV

That hasn’t been my experience. They seem much more durable than carbon arrows. I once missed a target and shot one into a brick wall. I popped the knock back in, replaced the tip, and the thing was as good as new. Anything that would dent a FMJ would likely cut a carbon arrow. The carbon prevents the aluminum from bending, and the aluminum protects the carbon from abrasions.

I’ve killed a pile of animals with them over the last 10 years or so and never had one take damage to the head shooting an animal.

 

[Ryan]

My impression of FMJs is that they are fragile, easily dent, and that the aluminum skin work hardens over time. Upon collision with target/game, they take damage at the head. Last complaint, they erode FOC because of the weight of the aluminum all the way across the entire shaft.

I’d prefer an Easton Axis or Sirius carbon arrow with an ethics archery collar and insert up front to increase FOC, increase point/head/throat durability, etc.

Put another way, I think you’re paying extra to LOSE FOC And you didn’t gain structural integrity anyway.

YMMV

You're comparing apples to oranges. The old thin walled Superlight shafts were indeed fragile. I remember 2512s that became popular in the early 90s that could be split with a good (or bad) hit. It didn't take me long to realize this and walk away from them. 14 or even better 16/1000" walls could take a beating. Chuxk Adams was a big fan of 2317s as I recall. A pretty resilient aluminum arrow. And you're neglecting that these also have a core of carbon. The combination of the two materials makes for some strong, tough and heavier arrow shafts in my experience. I've shot FMJ for over a decade, they've taken a beating and kept going. And a heavy shaft is not a detriment in my book, it's part of the whole. As for the FOC, it is adjusted up front, regardless of the shaft compositions with point weights and inserts.