Terminal performance with shedding monos

[michael458]

Gday Michael 458

Thanks for the reply
On point now & makes a sense as to why I’ve seen the difference in some of the solids ( alloy aside )

I’m definitely derailing lol
What are the other factors please

Cheers

Instead of repeating it here and taking away from the Raptor discussion I am going to refer you to this page on this thread. This has to do with Solids Only, 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Performance......

Post in thread 'Why not a Dangerous Game lever?'

Apr 29, 2025

And AGAIN;

There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber
Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and...

• michael458

• 
• 

 

[Fordy]

Gday Michael458

It took a bit before I think I realized what you were saying. The broken beer bottle edges of the remaining bullet is typical of ALL Raptors, this is not a problem, or any bit of a concern. I have never seen the remaining bullet drive off course or tumble after Blade Shear, either in test medium or animal tissue the remaining bullet drives straight. Now, I have to take that statement back one step when it comes to .416 caliber and twist rates of 1;14 or slower, at the end of penetration the 416s can turn in the last few inches of penetration, but that seems to be the only caliber I have seen this. At 1;12 everything remains dead straight in .416.

Don’t feel to bad on trying to realise what I’m on about as I struggle every day with that lol


My rifle is a sako brown bear in 500 Jeffery with a 1 in 20 twist 475 raptor @ 2727 MV impacted @ 2614 fps @ 20 yard
So would this potentially be the reason I saw a tumble in my media ?

My calcs are it should be stable @ 3.314 off jbm ballistics & hence my looking @ the meplat shape re this pic

but also understand that a 4 has been a great number/ indicator of better straightline over the years or should say when you’ve got less than a ideal design as it’s a Band-Aid in my mind but one that’s good insurance

Anyway best example I can explain & very reluctantly put this up as I’ve got shouted down on another forum so whatever one thinks it was just some of the ok stupid stuff we did to try & get a better killing pill scenario but not done on a whim

so here goes

I’ve done / put rifle solid through a 410 shotgun as the lead solids of the time just wouldn’t cut it terminally so with a lot of measuring & working out through many talks to see if I could put a rifle solid through the old snake gun as we call them ( the 410 ) it was given the go ahead & learn we did so no twist & straight line on one pill others terrible but overall mission was abandoned due to slower impact speed, accuracy & meplat diameter & moved back to 45-70 but eventually fell out of love with that as speed limited also but really I hadn’t cleared my head enough to see a way forward @ the time but that pill was a flat nose

Which leads me back to the picture again & look @ the meplat & my SF of less than 4 & it’s potentially a problem that will occur in my eyes but open to showing me what I’m missing

as it’s lopped sided re shearing of the “blades “ I note the other 2 recovered shanks had better meplats yes still the broken bottle but still pretty flat overall & showed not a hint of going off line in the critters so my mind goes back to solids &the importance of meplat shape
I’ve also found similar things with hammers & apex to name a few & it’s a trait that unless it’s in a big critter or severe angles most won’t see it as the shank has exited before it turns tumbles some with severe meplat damage or slopes turn tumbling occurs quickly now not had those with raptors but others I have & some pretty substantial ones that come out same entry side & this can somewhat be attributed to the alloy used in those pills & design & the way it functions under certain resistances
& to be fair this is not only with shedding monos as I can show the same with a variety of pill brands & styles & from a consistency base of good terminals occurring while it’s harder to get in a shedding mono it’s one that when it’s achieved the results have proven to be the most consistent & devastating pills on the market today but improvement is possible I still believe in the big bores as it’s been shown to occur in the sub 375 so I await the day of those big bores to get even better

The 475 .510 caliber Raptor was designed in 2012 by my test partner and best friend Sam Rose for his double rifles in 500 NE. He had been using the 570/535s up until then.

Do you have by chance the test media difference between those 2 pills ( 475&535 )

Also what is & the process for your media

He saw the incredible success I was having with my .500 caliber rifles, in particular the 500 MDM where I was running the 500 gr #13 Solids matched with the 450 Raptors in .500 caliber. I was running the 450 Raptors at 2450-2500 fps in my 500 MDM and it was turning buffalo inside out. Sam decided to do the same in 500 NE with the 510 Solid and 475 Raptors.

No doubts on that , you should see what occurs @ 2650 plus impacts on bovine
Yes it’s possible to bangflop a scrubbie & buff I’m going to give it a shake I think but time will tell on that & still have a bit of velocity left in that Jeffery’s tank but the talon tip cuts the velocity loss to around 1/2 the losses so no need to go stupid as those are pretty high impact anyway but potential ( have had ) under 10 yard impacts I like to know as to where /if the 50 cal brass raptor can handle these impacts I’ll potentially take those to above 2750 impact if my sums are correct on how fast I can push the Jeffery but baby steps first before I’m fully confident in putting more powder in than I did before , I backed off for hunting loads ( yes I’ve gone higher) so I know still room , I don’t doubt it will be ok as it should only start to somewhat flatten/ move the brass then unless big bones do something to it im unaware of all should be good unlike copper & some copper is not good for big bores @ all @ even sub 2500 impacts & better off going back to a woodleigh or north fork etc ( @ more modest impact) if the raptor isn’t one’s cuppa tea as the Jeffery should be a problem solver not a creator

The little groove you see on the nose is not a relief groove in any way, Sam had the groove put in on the 510 Solids and the 475 Raptors so he could feel the difference in loads when using both 570/535s and the 510/475s, he could tell the difference simply by feel when reloading. That is all it is. That Groove has remained in the program.

Thanks makes sense but I will still tinker with that to see if it does make a difference as if we don’t try we won’t know is my logic

To me it should work better with a flatter meplat but been wrong plenty of times before & will again & while most likely I’ll get less penertration ( I’ve got solids for that job ) the wounds should be larger & even less penertration wouldn’t be a concern to me in this case as it’s extremely rare you catch a shank in those 475 raptors anyway ( asiatic a bit different especially floodplain) but the bubble is the one I’ll watch in the critter as it’s pretty cool what’s occurred in the sub 375 cal so why not the plus 375 cal is my logic but again I’m not worried on being wrong as then I know & I’m better off knowing that or I just can’t sleep lol

We did the load data and pressure work with the 500 NE and the 510/475s and were able to run both in 500 NE above 2300 fps without exceeding max safe pressures in double rifles.

The 475 Raptors proved to be extremely effective on buffalo, most all Aussie buffalo stood and quivered after taking the hit and most were DRT. I actually never recall seeing any run after the initial hit with the 475s at over 2300 fps, Sam shot 20 or more buffalo with this bullet. Some were shot with the 535s at lower velocity, and there was a huge difference in animal reactions to taking the bullets. While the 535s were deadly, the 475s at 2300 fps were devastating.

Basically Confirmed same as above the difference is pretty substantial between the 2 pills
475 impact velocity was above 2250 seems a tipping point for the 475 so your 2300 is close enough in my books lol
you see 2400/50 being a step up again & 2650 plus I can’t wait to see how a big floodplain bull reacts to that 2700 even better yes I like ‘em close

Since then the 510 Solids have become very popular and used a lot for elephant and other heavies. The 475 Raptor has become The Bullet for buffalo.........in .510 caliber.

The broken beer bottle top after shear is normal in every single Raptor ever done from .224 caliber to .620 caliber.

In the case of the Raptors, they are considered "Blades" and not "Petals"....... Petals are more related to Copper Gen 1 CNC Trauma Inflicting bullets, where the "Petals" peel back and break off unevenly during terminal Penetration, they do not all Shear or peel back at the same instance.

Gotcha re my reference to blades above I’ll try to remember that so pull me up if I slip back to my old ways

With a Raptor, the "Blades" are designed to Shear at the same time and point in terminal penetration. These "Blades" slice and dice their way through tissue and penetrate by cutting and slicing, not by pushing their way through. Big bore Blades come in at 6-9 grains in weight on average, they do not have enough weight or mass to penetrate as deep as they do. They slice and dice. In the wet print test medium I test with here, it is common for big bore blades, .458 to .510 caliber to penetrate as deep as 6-8 inches in this test medium!

Also add to that that the petals or blades depending on style somewhat get a free ride due to the bubble that’s created @ moment of impact ( shapecharge is important) & by adjusting the hp depth you see various results of how a ex weight petal or blade can travel in the critter & the difference the overall wound channel difference is quite incredible

Just a query on petal weight of 6-9 gr for big bore if you missed a 1 off those numbers as most of the .510 ranged from about 15 to 30 gr if my memory is correct ( I’ll check up also

Now to compare this, a typical .357 caliber bullet fired in 38 Special penetrates 3-4 inches. A typical 45 ACP 185-230 conventional expanding bullet penetrates to 4-5 inches in this same medium.
Y

So how does a 6-9 gr Blade Penetrate to 6-8 inches? Slice and dice. Blades, not petals.

Re above on my previous part re bubble that even on the 475 raptor as here’s a heart that had the balance of the pill all messed up by me yes I tinkered with it ( other calibers I’ve got better results & have pictures of those also that I’ll find just give me time please)

Both are very close with same shot placement & within 20 fps of impact of ea other

That’s the heart that had a hole through it with a tinkered raptor & no damage to offside lobe & “blades were larger yet still flat
Here’s one untinkered

once again by tinkering with the sub 375 calibre pills even raptors the blades & petals of others made stupid distances that today are the level I like to see & some companies are getting those results in pills now & that goes back to the extra or having both I spoke to @grand veneur to previously & guess I should show those so it’s just not considered waffle but please give me some time as a fair bit on here & just not enough time in the day or early morning lol as well after midnight here & I’ll be up @4 no excuse but please give me a little leeway as I’m not a fast typer either

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Instead of repeating it here and taking away from the Raptor discussion I am going to refer you to this page on this thread. This has to do with Solids Only, 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Performance......

Post in thread 'Why not a Dangerous Game lever?'

Apr 29, 2025

And AGAIN;

There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber
Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and...

• michael458

• 
• 

Thanks Micheal I’ll read asap but zzz time for now
Night all
Cheers

 

[michael458]

My rifle is a sako brown bear in 500 Jeffery with a 1 in 20 twist 475 raptor @ 2727 MV impacted @ 2614 fps @ 20 yard
So would this potentially be the reason I saw a tumble in my media ?

No, I doubt it. We tested in 500 NE and I am sure those were slow twist rates. I have tested and shot 1000s of Raptors and I never seen one tumble above 458 caliber ever. Whether in live tissue or test medium. I don't have a clue as to what you experienced.

Now I have seen the 416s turn sideways at the very end of penetration, at 1;14, at 1;12 they were stable to the end.

Nor would I be too upset with it either. This is not meant to be a Flat Nose Solid, it is a trauma inflicting bullet, we want those ragged sharp edges, we don't want a smooth flat meplat. I certainly would not put time into trying to get a straight across shear.

This is what our test looked like here with the 535 .510 Raptors.

Do you have by chance the test media difference between those 2 pills ( 475&535 )

Not direct tests at higher velocities, to be perfectly honest, they got their test on buffalo and that was good enough for me. I don't shoot .510 caliber or never hunted with it, my rifles are .500 caliber. So I did not have a tremendous amount of incentive and Sam was satisfied with the buffalo tests. We did test for Low Velocity Shear Point in my 51 Alaskan (.510 caliber Alaskan)

Also what is & the process for your media

A mix of wet news print and a 1.5-2 inch layer of magazine/catalogs every 10 inches of medium. Soaked and throughly wet.

Just a query on petal weight of 6-9 gr for big bore if you missed a 1 off those numbers as most of the .510 ranged from about 15 to 30 gr if my memory is correct ( I’ll check up also

You are correct, I don't know what I was recalling when I stated 6-9 gr blade weight? I opened up the 535 .510 Raptor tests and weighed those blades and they cam in between 17-19.5 grs each.
I must have been recalling a smaller caliber and it stuck in my brain.

I don't think they are riding in a bubble per say like a Flat Nose Solid creates. To begin with the larger caliber blades begin to move away from center at about 2-3 inches after shear point, they are no longer being influenced by the center bullet. I think the the center bullet is too ragged to develop any sort of even bubble, and even if it could after shear, the blades have moved away from center. I have shot lesser animals with big bores, .458-.500 with Raptors and blades exit the far side 8-10 inches from the center bullet. Big bore blades do not stay in the center, they radiate away from center.

Copper Gen 1 bullets such as the Hammer, Lehigh, and Maximus from CEB, the "Petals" shear at different points of Terminal penetration and they tend to stay closer to the center wound channel, this is also very destructive in and of itself. These petals can be found as deep as 12-15 inches in my test medium, and are definitely extremely destructive in animal tissue. Personally, having used both in the field fairly extensively I lean towards the Raptor being more destructive, but I will say that it is a close run for the money. And, Either and Both are far far ahead of any conventional expanding bullet, by leaps and bounds when Terminals are concerned. Conventional can't even be in the ball park when it comes to the massive destruction of tissue.

 

[Fordy]

Gday Micheal
Thanks for the information below & just got through the other stuff & that’s going to take a bit to sink in as a lot in it but very enlightening thankyou

No, I doubt it. We tested in 500 NE and I am sure those were slow twist rates. I have tested and shot 1000s of Raptors and I never seen one tumble above 458 caliber ever. Whether in live tissue or test medium. I don't have a clue as to what you experienced.

My thoughts are on that 475 .510 pill it would’ve turned in a critter also but do the stars align for that to occur is one I can’t say as most likely on most critters it’s already exited so somewhat upto Murphy or as mark @ apex tells people “I’m a bullet companies worst nightmare but in a good way “ he said as then you can work on what occurred & potentially fix it which he has from the stage 1 he produced to his stage 3 now is pretty darn impressive . yes I seem to find a pill’s weakness & once I do that I’ll exploit it with numerous critters on those shots to find out where it’s @ from Amore reliable % than saying I saw it once so it’s no good yes repartition needed

Here’s one of the 375 raptors from the field

I’ve got a couple more but man it’s a extremely low % it occurs @ & once again not saying raptors are bad it’s they can potentially be improved as they are the best in plus 375 cal without a doubt I’ve seen so please don’t take offence to that as if you’ve seen & probably have by your numbers I’ve seen a few of your posts with the rate of failures or less than ideal results of other styles vrs raptors for which you’ll hopefully understand I’m not picking on raptors I’m praising how reliable they’ve been but improvement I do believe can occur to the likes of the above results becoming even less

Now I have seen the 416s turn sideways at the very end of penetration, at 1;14, at 1;12 they were stable to the end.

Got no idea myself I’ll test again once my hand somewhat heals as impaled a metal spike in my hand mostly through it yesterday so maybe sometime before I can handle the Jeffery again

Nor would I be too upset with it either. This is not meant to be a Flat Nose Solid, it is a trauma inflicting bullet, we want those ragged sharp edges, we don't want a smooth flat meplat. I certainly would not put time into trying to get a straight across shear.

That is where we somewhat differ yet no right nor wrong as individually we may require a different outcome due to areas we hunt or what we hunt & combinations of those let alone what types of shots we will ea take on the critter

I’ll keep my numbers of critters out of the equation as Ive gotten serious pushback on them in other places ( I’ll see how it’s taken here before I divulge some of those numbers) for which it ends up derailing the intended subject & it’s overly one I don’t like but they are high numbers over the years gone by but today I just can’t do it as my body is shutting down so I’m resorting to test media & thought wet news papers would be the best ( but I like those magazines as a addition) since my initial days of wet phone books some 35 odd years ago occurred & showed promise of how a pill behaves & critters then took it up a notch eg angles , hide, bones & various tissue density plus the dreaded paunch ( watch a raptor get through that but here’s where your flat meplat shines on bigger wounds from what I’ve witnessed & more importantly the wound channel into lungs after this shot goes to the flat nose or cup faced solids or shanks of this style have shown to also produce but add petals for the “added benefit “ is one I like & this also can be somewhat the speed of the pill in the critter I believe eg the broken bottle has more friction slowing it down ( also bigger meplat when it’s relatively flat meplat form is created ) where the FN dosent decelerate as quickly hence greater speed in the critter & penetration is the outcome along with better wounds get petals through that & a better outcome occurs here’s a paunch shot on a scrubbie & look @ the wound in the lungs & heart from a 375 pill

& the 375 raptor doesn’t get this level of damage , penetration yes but not damage & ultimately impact to tip of the critter is different between the 2 both superior to a c&c bonded or not

Overall I want the best I can get & maybe my pea brain but after reading the 8 factors I’m a little more on the front foot of it will improve things but I reserve the right to say yep I’m wrong as I go & re read & tick on it a bit more
Basically I like to know if my theories hold water or leak like a sieve & not worried if I’m wrong as I’ve been many times before but also when it comes together my track record on that is also pretty good with companies pills

I’ll report it whatever way it goes & crow I don’t mind eating

This is what our test looked like here with the 535 .510 Raptors.

Not direct tests at higher velocities, to be perfectly honest, they got their test on buffalo and that was good enough for me. I don't shoot .510 caliber or never hunted with it, my rifles are .500 caliber. So I did not have a tremendous amount of incentive and Sam was satisfied with the buffalo tests. We did test for Low Velocity Shear Point in my 51 Alaskan (.510 caliber Alaskan)

Thankyou definitely cool to see those low level impact working but one I highly doubt I’ll get but everything is always good to know it will work if it is potentially needed yes I’ve learned better to know where limits are than hoping

A mix of wet news print and a 1.5-2 inch layer of magazine/catalogs every 10 inches of medium. Soaked and throughly wet.

You are correct, I don't know what I was recalling when I stated 6-9 gr blade weight? I opened up the 535 .510 Raptor tests and weighed those blades and they cam in between 17-19.5 grs each.
I must have been recalling a smaller caliber and it stuck in my brain.

All cool on above & thanks one thing I have noticed on media testing vrs critters but mainly smaller calibers is angles play a huge role in if a pill works or not ( this is also a individual thing & can depend on the level one expects ) as advertised & while I’ve never used it I saw all these good gel tests & thought why dosent every pill do that in a critter re no mechanical broadhead of a pill ( yes critters are my gel ) & end up passing a comment of should whack the gel on a angle face & hey presto things changed the preformance of the pill that my mate did from a square on flat impact but still flaws in gel

Next was our understanding of what the wet media was giving some pills the advantage of as reality to the field showed variations some real bad

you’ll get reliable moisture in the hp from the wet testing process like yours & the hammerboys do milk jugs filled with water & dry news paper after that on the ones they do

now you’ve got some pills that are immune or don’t need moisture to work ( mechanical pills don’t hydraulic do ) those mechanical being raptors & apex to a lesser extent McGuire hp variety & lastly the likes of the OEP BB or like tip /plunger pills which have other issues

Some need that moisture more than others & without a doubt that’s hammer needing it the most & definitely more of the tips they use now in the hht aht & hbc as original tip was the hydraulic medium so they were good but things have changed now also hh& ah & lessor as hp size increases but still hydraulic medium is needed for these pills to work as design & dictates it but the tsx or ttsx , maximus , atomic plus many others .

including the cup & core also exhibits that trait so people don’t go all these monos have issues as watch the others do it also so user beware or @ a minimum if one understands it they are better equipped to apply a Band-Aid to help elevate it but it’s still there & one I’m still learning a lot on

That’s why the raptors & apex are so reliable as they don’t have this one weakness others have of needing the hydraulics to get the pill to work & mud encrusted critters , scar tissue or impacting areas on critters that have less moisture @ impact spot on critter .
That’s Where they mess the non mechanical pills up to varying degrees from slightly to bigtime especially the likes of the softer alloys

I don't think they are riding in a bubble per say like a Flat Nose Solid creates. To begin with the larger caliber blades begin to move away from center at about 2-3 inches after shear point, they are no longer being influenced by the center bullet. I think the the center bullet is too ragged to develop any sort of even bubble, and even if it could after shear, the blades have moved away from center. I have shot lesser animals with big bores, .458-.500 with Raptors and blades exit the far side 8-10 inches from the center bullet. Big bore blades do not stay in the center, they radiate away from center.

Yes I agree to a point that they radiate out the bubble needs to be formed correctly or the shapecharge of it needs to be right to get the added effect of bigger wound channels both in diameter & length ( this is where drone photography of the impacts of these different pills shows us what a pill is actually doing in relationships to that shapecharge & bubble I’ll post those up as we go & might as well put a few c&c in also to level the playing field lol ( I already know what’s best & it’s not a c&c lol sub 375 on drone ) but also the blades or petals might be getting pushed along or “free ride” as I call it due to the stretching out of the TWC or even sucked along but agree that’s more the petals traits as they are closer the TWC aloud a easier path I guess I’m saying but depending on amount of stretch you get is the type of PWC that’s produced
Let’s look @ this raptor kill it shows the difference of these 2 types of wounds in the one pill

So you have 2 distinct wound styles in the above critter ( this deer wasn’t big @103lbs )
The raptor definitely cuts & slices but those wounds while efficient on giving a consistent kill & as I’ve said previously I don’t think I’ve lost a critter with a raptor, it’s one that has shown not to be the quickest killing but still good ( think broadhead like kills as bleeding out not knocked out occurs ( velocity impact is important to understand here but just a high velocity impact is not going to kill quickly on its own take impala bullets as a great example) & can see it in the lungs above due to the blood filling them up & I’ll show other systems later that are more aggressive in the mush but this is already getting way long so I’ll not add anymore pictures of those to this post sorry) once numbers of critters are gathered & put into graphs like this of about 100 plus deer ea year

although these were with a few brands but break those down individually one gets a very good pattern of how quickly pills kill that’s off my hunting property & once I add deer culled off other properties & add to these in a individual pill the patterns are easily seen

I’ve done the same with bovines of all shapes & sizes & got some great charts a mate done up for me on a pretty big cull I done over about 3 weeks that was to have every bovine off this property yep totally devoid of bovines , mustering was done first but couldn’t get these guys out so we took everything out after that & I took advantage of gathering data on the smallest ones , got some on the big bovines but only so many of the big ones I could autopsy & without the help of my son & a very good mate I wouldn’t have got that data but I’ll leave those sheets for another post also as yep this is going to take enough time to read & I don’t want to overload everyone

Copper Gen 1 bullets such as the Hammer, Lehigh, and Maximus from CEB, the "Petals" shear at different points of Terminal penetration and they tend to stay closer to the center wound channel, this is also very destructive in and of itself. These petals can be found as deep as 12-15 inches in my test medium, and are definitely extremely destructive in animal tissue. Personally, having used both in the field fairly extensively I lean towards the Raptor being more destructive, but I will say that it is a close run for the money. And, Either and Both are far far ahead of any conventional expanding bullet, by leaps and bounds when Terminals are concerned. Conventional can't even be in the ball park when it comes to the massive destruction of tissue.

This above is not the full case on some of this part you’ve wrote ( total respect to you ) & why critter tests simply have no peers & goes back to my above part of the hydraulic medium needed in certain pill designs
Remember raptors & apex don’t need it & put these in critters like this

the raptor or apex will still preform ( remember reliability) where as the likes of the hammer, Barnes & the maximus etc do require it
Simple way to see this is recovered pills
Here’s one of es of those ea that I could quickly find

Yet all 3 ( I have many more ) are above the minimum velocity workings of the pill set by the company

A lot in this & one I’ve spent a lot of time on only really putting it all together around 12 months ago ( still more to learn though)!& done a huge amount on hammers trying to help them but the way they went was not upto me which is cool but I’ll not sugar coat it those pills today have gone backwards in terminal performance / reliability & in 50 cal are a total ( hate to say it ) joke as DG are no joking matter imo ( yes got a lot of evidence on that or I just expect to much but highly doubt that with their 50 cal pills @ the minimum as are totally crap & sadly they even seen it with their own eyes when I had the hammerboys in Aussie but another time on that )

So much on these shedding monos that need to be designed correctly or it’s a bingo raffle on when/where your numbers up & in the DG world the only plus 375 pills that I’ve tested or been present on doing autopsies with that I can say has the reliability & terminals to match is the raptor but I do believe it can be improved & time will tell on that & would love to continue the conversation on what could possibly help & I think the knowledge you’ve gained over the years & some of those 8 factors might be the one that gets the raptor to the next level but that’s also upto you & ultimately ceb as if you or they don’t I’m cool with that also

Thanks for taking the time replying & reading this & the long winded waffle I do lol
Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday
Here’s the data sheets a mate done up for me on the cull I talked of in a previous post

On these there was no impact to tip distances taken as it was more efficient to take the cows out first ( used other calibers mainly on the bigger bovines ) & then the calves were easily dispatched for a wait till the better shot angle presented for the data to be more in line with the same shot resistance on ea critter the best I could gather

Now I’ll add some photos of the wounds to another post once I find where they are in my phone ( I’ve only just worked out with the help from my son that folders exist & how to put them in those yes I’m not that smart) to give a little bit more clarity on how all these were done ( as long as I’ve not deleted them but I’m pretty sure I’ve not been that stupid but time will tell on that & some will think I’m stupid either way lol )

Any questions please ask & I’ll try to answer the best I can & I also gathered other velocity impacts/resistances on what I could do & none of it would’ve been possible without the help of a great mate & my sons & I can’t thank them enough for
A/ putting up with me on my anal measurements
B/ willing to do a lot of the physical work

Cheers
Ps edit was done as had a couple same pages up sorry

 

[Fordy]

Gday
Here’s the various types of pills & the wounds that these produced that are related to the data sheets in post #46

Also on special note the hammer bullets were with the older better working pills & the ones that are produced today are not to the standard of killing efficiency that those pills exhibited & not one of the 6.5 brand pills imo killed to the level that the larger calibers showed & more to follow on a few of those that I gathered

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday
Here’s a couple on the calves that had a step up of calibers to 375 & .510 cal & impact of 1840/50 of 375 or lower in the case of the .510 cal of any of those contained in the 6.5 data sheets & a true solid in that

The impact to tip time on these were considerably less even the less than ideal placed shot of the woodleigh hydro was cut in half of the best result from the 6.5 cal

Better placed shot & 1920/30 impact of the hydro was even better but those pics I don’t have or couldn’t find them sorry but impact to tip was better again & also of note you can visually tell when hit with the big bores & sound of impact also shows up with a thud

Imo the smaller calibers should be impacting faster & only some brands worked as advertised & limit them to smaller critters although I’ve killed buff with the 6.5 overall it’s not smart & was pretty well stunt shooting & a few of these bigger bovines on this cull were also taken with the 6.5 @ faster impact speeds & same results while better, nothing compares to the bigger calibers if the design works in a apple to apples comparison of pill design

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday
Crow eating time
Here’s a raptor shank out of a bovine today

that told me I needed to eat some crow but more to come on this & while it’s not what I wanted to see it’s one that I have learned some more on what a hand Grenade on a knuckle does lol

I must be getting a better cook as It Was all right @michael458 as now I can move on to the next tests on solids although these won’t be go smack a bovine without settling into a pattern first as yes I need the base first so stay tuned on that , although might be more crow lol

Cheers

 

[Altitude sickness]

What did it hit to halt penetration? Or was it a squib load

 

[Fordy]

Gday altitude sickness

What did it hit to halt penetration? Or was it a squib load

A squib load of what I’m trying to eventually get too lol

it hit a knuckle on around a 1300 lb scrubbie @ just shy of 2700 impact (2690/5 best I can assume )
This is one of my go to tests to see how the bullet preforms as a lot of bullets just won’t handle it but that’s open to interpretation & one’s own level of wants & acceptance
& here’s the kicker that gets pushback from some as it’s a totally fatal shot on most bullets on these types of shots in the Jeffery BUT the level of the killing varies considerably between different types even within same brand

only needed this one shot to see it’s never going to work so saves me wasting time & resources on multiple more tests even though this pill would be absolutely amazing I believe on a broadside in shoulder meat or the crease but if it can’t handle the knuckle no use going on as it’s one that will eventually get taken & not to the standard the parent pill has set

That’s what I’m after is these differences to work out the best ,
When evaluating the whole picture the difference between these is incredible to see from completely folding the critter in it’s tracks to long run’s also many minutes from impact to tip plus variable distances in between but overtime you get a pattern & see what combine with other shot placements that give the best outcome of covering as many bases as possible

So this raptor is tinkered by my mate & i with a relief cut that has turned the parent pill (475 raptor) into a useless pill for bovine hence my eating crow comment to Michael but it’s not a failure in my eyes it’s a learning experience of what can occur if things are not right for the critter we are perusing
Here’s a couple of pictures that show the pressures involved
It’s completely sunken in the knuckle

A really nice cavity in the knuckle joint

Some very good pulverised suger like consistency of the knuckle joint along with a lot of fractures

but it’s not deep & here lies the issue & learned a little more I have & hope it helps others also


I’ll leave a lot of that for Michael & annoy the crap out of him lol

Cheers

 

[michael458]

Crow eating time
Here’s a raptor shank out of a bovine today

OK Fordy, need some more detail on just exactly how this bullet failed........

it hit a knuckle on around a 1300 lb scrubbie @ just shy of 2700 impact (2690/5 best I can assume )
This is one of my go to tests to see how the bullet preforms as a lot of bullets just won’t handle it but that’s open to interpretation & one’s own level of wants & acceptance

OK, from this, I am thinking a point on the shoulder shot animal not fully facing, but at an angle, point of shoulder, hitting the big knuckle ............ Right? Then the bullet angling off to the far side somewhere? If I have this vision correct, where did you find the Remaining bullet (shank)?

I am having a hard time with just where the shot entered..... the angle of the shot...... then how far it penetrated and where it was found?

And, exactly how did the bullet FAIL? What were your goals for the "Modified Raptor"

So this raptor is tinkered by my mate & i with a relief cut that has turned the parent pill (475 raptor) into a useless pill for bovine hence my eating crow comment to Michael but it’s not a failure in my eyes it’s a learning experience

I told you so! HEH HEH........... You changed the behavior characteristics by the modification. I could be wrong in my assessment of what you are trying to convey, but is it stability of the remaining bullet? Or exactly what was the failure?

NOw, from the looks of the damage, I am not seeing much failure involved! But I think your goals for this particular bullet are over reaching somewhat, remember our chat? This remaining bullet is not a deep diving solid, nor is it meant to be.

Like I said, I may be off course with what you are trying to get across, or I am too dense to get it. By tinkering, or by busting bone all to hell, the stability of the remaining bullet is off? Just need to define what part of it you thought was a failure learning experience................

I am telling you, have been telling you, that the .510 caliber 475 Raptor is about as good as it is ever going to be, at accomplishing the mission asked of it, AS IT IS, No Tinkering Needed! Eat Crow Fordy! HEH HEH

I Have shot a couple of buffalo with .500 caliber Raptors, and I think an eland as well..... What I am calling Point of the shoulder, facing me at an angle........ Hitting the ball joint, knuckle and busting the on side all to hell, remaining bullet traversing through vitals, to far rear side, depending on angle. Its a bloody mess, and the buffalo's and eland were completely messed up on that on point shot. Broken down mess. Much similar to what you have shown. Both of the remaining bullets penetrated to about 4 ft or so of buffalo. The eland bullet was not recovered. Now complete transparency, I did not pay any attention at all if the remaining bullet was nose forward or not at recovery......and don't much care, what I do know, it could not have traveled over 4 ft of buffalo in a straight line from the point of the shoulder, had it been tumbling or unstable.

So, if stability is the failure, then what made it unstable? The bone crushing or the Tinkering? If unstable, how far did the bullet travel and what angle? So lets examine these questions.....

I’ll leave a lot of that for Michael & annoy the crap out of him lol

Yep...... HEH.......... But Fordy, I would never tell you..... "told you so"...........

It Was all right @michael458 as now I can move on to the next tests on solids

Yes Fordy, these were the most interesting work ahead as we discussed at length, this back peddling on the Raptor is taking up time that could be spent more productively........................ Leave the Raptor alone! HEH HEH and lets get to that Hollow Subject we talked about!

 

[Fordy]

Your a gooden Michael love it especially the heh heh

Failure let’s discuss that part first as it’s the one that gets a lot of different opinions from some but once my muppet English is translated somewhat it maybe come a little clearer?

But let’s put this in some context first a Barnes etc struggle to do what even that tinkered pill did & the impact to tip time yes only a one off but without a doubt it’s not a patch none of them are on that 475 untinkered raptor

So yes slap me next time I mention tinkering with the big raptor ( I had great success with a 6.5 mm but shhh I won’t tell you lol also this is the 2nd tinkered .510 I’d tinkered with & both failed to improve on the original so yes it’s time to move on to the other tests we talked about as I’ve given up as I’m seeing nothing I can do or have learned yet to improve that raptor pill


Let’s look @ the failed attempt to improve

The part I got correct was the less penertration part but that came from a compromised meplat & less weight overall & tumble pill

So not what I was trying to achieve in that way with 31 inches of penertration as I was hoping for the blades to stay a little closer to the shank the increased meplat size of 100% increased the permanent wound channel & add the stay closer blades you get a bigger longer permanent wound channel in zones 2& 3
Well was in theory yes but it’s something that had worked previously on 375 & down but more going on than I realised & eat crow I have

Now to the next part & that’s pretty dramatic on similar shots with the difference in the 2 pills quite incredible

So here’s the pills themselves

& the difference gave these differences of a shank that was recovered in the critter
The other 2 were found in the dirt after exit & only one was a knuckle shot but wounds once past the knuckle & into the chest cavity were very different of tinkered pill & a large bone fragment on entry I believe made the 2nd entry into chest cavity as I found a bit of the joint in there

Where excuse the angle but this scrubbie was wedged up against logs & I couldn’t move her enough for full autopsy & better pictures so here’s what I got off the video I did for reference

& blades made it through the chest & started the slicing & dicing
Where there was nothing made it through I found on the tinkered ( only part of the joint )
& just the shank but it’s wounding was considerably smaller also & also you see where the short bubble of the tinkered pill gave a movement of the brass or smeared like & this tells me it’s really struggled to produce a good bubble on the meplat to for better words give it a free ride ( on the really efficient pill design you see it just as the inefficient show those traits previously)

So that’s my definition of a failure & one that doesn’t come close to the original so that’s a failure from me to improve

Hope that makes sense & this was going to be short as had some very big days & thought I’d get to bed early but alas another night that will be lol

I’ll come back & clarify if needed or quote your post above as that has some very good points in it
Till then it’s zzz time here & yes it’s onto those other tests & those tinkered pills will most likely be done late next week & I’ll send pic’s & information once done

Cheers

 

[michael458]

So yes slap me next time I mention tinkering with the big raptor ( I had great success with a 6.5 mm but

Will do! HEH....... and, don't talk to me about anything less than .416 caliber please, if you do, I just look the other way and have nothing to say.......... I don't do anything with Rat calibers, I don't want to know anything about rat calibers, I don't care about rat calibers, and 416 is low as I go and care anything about........... Unless I am in research mode on a specific project, but those very very rarely drop below .338...... For some purposes I do .224 research, and .308 research, but those are special projects, and not for hunting purposes. I just don;t shoot a lot of rats..........

this is the 2nd tinkered .510 I’d tinkered with & both failed to improve on the original

................What did I tell you to begin with? Hard head! HEH.

Well you assessment above says it all. Tinkered less weight, not squared off nose, blades broke up into tiny pieces....... Original heavier, more squared off nose, heavy blades for slicing and dicing and doing what they are supposed to do..... Similar to below;

Remember, these are not deep diving solids, these are Trauma inflicting bullets, any comparisons of this type bullet and Gen 1 Copper should be compared to other Trauma Inflicting bullets and conventional expanding bullets, not any solids, not even limited penetration solids..... that is not what they are....... Compare to Swifts, Woodleigh Softs, Gen 1 or some such.......

So that’s my definition of a failure & one that doesn’t come close to the original so that’s a failure from me to improve

Got it..... and concur.......... Now move on..... LOL..........

I do have something that you may investigate in the future, that I think is a big deal.......... Many years ago, JD and I looked very hard at another "Limited Penetration Solid"......... JD designed it, I tested it here and on buffalo in Zimbabwe. It Moves Fluid.......... and we had Lehigh making it..... .500 caliber.

This would have been the beginning of something that someone at Lehigh perfected years later, the Lehigh Extremes...........

This would later evolve into the following;

I was long retired from field work when these evolved to the current generation. Now, I have these categorized more of a trauma inflicting bullet, because they do a lot of trauma at velocity, but they have incredible penetration, not as much as a Limited Penetration Solid such as the NF CPS, or Hydro, but more than most any trauma inflicting bullet, Gen 1 or Gen 2............ They are in between the Raptor and the Hydro/NF CPS........

Remember, anything 20 inches or better in my test medium meets buffalo capable.

The only thing that I have had tested was a friend of mine, his 458 B&M and a 250 lehigh Extreme on a bison at 50 yards...... velocity was around 2800 fps or so....... Bison DRT on the spot, massive reaction to taking the hit, but no autopsy or report beyond that...... My guy is not a bullet digger, so that is all the info I got.

Now, if you could get your hands on some of these and put them in buffalo, then this would be a big question answered in the world of Terminal Performance! We have about everything else sorted out, but these I have not seen, used, or heard much about in the field and especially on heavy Bovine! This would be great to test.......... I have the "Range Tests" on various calibers, but no field work on them! I think they are just what they say...... Extreme! I don't think, but I don't know if they make a .510? I know they make various .500 caliber, that is left over from the old days with JD and myself........ Lehigh was sold to Wilson a couple of years ago. Which is probably a huge plus.

And, when you start the test work on our other project, start another thread...... and or send to me. Fordy and I are collaborating on the Last Mystery concerning Solid Terminal Performance. One that I touched on many years ago but never got back to finish it. Fordy is going to do an in depth study on a particular subject, that I always wanted to get back to, but never did. It should be revolutionary if we calculate correctly........... Fordy has an excellent program set up for this test, and it will prove, or disprove a theory we have had for years..........

 

[Fordy]

Gday Michael
Heh heh to come on this lol

Will do! HEH....... and, don't talk to me about anything less than .416 caliber please, if you do, I just look the other way and have nothing to say.......... I don't do anything with Rat calibers, I don't want to know anything about rat calibers, I don't care about rat calibers, and 416 is low as I go and care anything about........... Unless I am in research mode on a specific project, but those very very rarely drop below .338...... For some purposes I do .224 research, and .308 research, but those are special projects, and not for hunting purposes. I just don;t shoot a lot of rats..........

We have some “big rats “ down here as my mate from the USA found out in these pictures

well that’s what he calls them “ big rats “ after he seen thousands of them in a few weeks & shot I couldn’t tell you how many

Great test medium & pretty tough buggers if you don’t hit them with the right “ rat rifle “ but the 500 Jeffery sorts em out I got lucky on this one lol

................What did I tell you to begin with? Hard head! HEH.

Yes call me a Slovakian but I’m happy now I pretty we’ll know you’ve done your homework & not just a textbook warrior lol

Well you assessment above says it all. Tinkered less weight, not squared off nose, blades broke up into tiny pieces....... Original heavier, more squared off nose, heavy blades for slicing and dicing and doing what they are supposed to do..... Similar to below;

Remember, these are not deep diving solids, these are Trauma inflicting bullets, any comparisons of this type bullet and Gen 1 Copper should be compared to other Trauma Inflicting bullets and conventional expanding bullets, not any solids, not even limited penetration solids..... that is not what they are....... Compare to Swifts, Woodleigh Softs, Gen 1 or some such.......

Got it....

We are talking me the Slovakian

. and concur..........

Now add the muppet ( me )

Now move on..... LOL..........

yes I’ve moved on
my days are finally @ a end on the Jeffery testing for a trauma pill as tested also woodleigh ,,hammer ,Barnes with the raptor easily coming out on top of those so that’s it & if the limited penetration solid below becomes available in .510 I’d give that a whirl but the raptor is finally my found out best pill hands down
Yep it’s a bloody good pill that I’ve failed to improve on lol & one I gladly eat crow on
Yes you told me

I do have something that you may investigate in the future, that I think is a big deal.......... Many years ago, JD and I looked very hard at another "Limited Penetration Solid"......... JD designed it, I tested it here and on buffalo in Zimbabwe. It Moves Fluid.......... and we had Lehigh making it..... .500 caliber.

This would have been the beginning of something that someone at Lehigh perfected years later, the Lehigh Extremes...........

This would later evolve into the following;

I was long retired from field work when these evolved to the current generation. Now, I have these categorized more of a trauma inflicting bullet, because they do a lot of trauma at velocity, but they have incredible penetration, not as much as a Limited Penetration Solid such as the NF CPS, or Hydro, but more than most any trauma inflicting bullet, Gen 1 or Gen 2............ They are in between the Raptor and the Hydro/NF CPS........

Remember, anything 20 inches or better in my test medium meets buffalo capable.

The only thing that I have had tested was a friend of mine, his 458 B&M and a 250 lehigh Extreme on a bison at 50 yards...... velocity was around 2800 fps or so....... Bison DRT on the spot, massive reaction to taking the hit, but no autopsy or report beyond that...... My guy is not a bullet digger, so that is all the info I got.

Now, if you could get your hands on some of these and put them in buffalo, then this would be a big question answered in the world of Terminal Performance! We have about everything else sorted out, but these I have not seen, used, or heard much about in the field and especially on heavy Bovine! This would be great to test.......... I have the "Range Tests" on various calibers, but no field work on them! I think they are just what they say...... Extreme! I don't think, but I don't know if they make a .510? I know they make various .500 caliber, that is left over from the old days with JD and myself........ Lehigh was sold to Wilson a couple of years ago. Which is probably a huge plus.

This below im so looking forward to so potentially a 9th known factor? & I may need to line a couple scrubbies or 3 to catch a darn pill lol if the initial tests show the way forward of course

And, when you start the test work on our other project, start another thread...... and or send to me. Fordy and I are collaborating on the Last Mystery concerning Solid Terminal Performance. One that I touched on many years ago but never got back to finish it. Fordy is going to do an in depth study on a particular subject, that I always wanted to get back to, but never did. It should be revolutionary if we calculate correctly........... Fordy has an excellent program set up for this test, and it will prove, or disprove a theory we have had for years..........

Yes another thread
you are probably better to start it as then it will be set out properly & not get derailed like this muppet does from time to time lol

Now I guess it’s back to my rat caliber journey & those are looking promising but tinkering with those I think I’m done in that field also as i await on my next rat tests to confirm lol

Thankyou Michael for putting up with my little antics & giving some back while cutting your way through my crap

Cheers

 

[michael458]

my days are finally @ a end on the Jeffery testing for a trauma pill as tested also woodleigh ,,hammer ,Barnes with the raptor easily coming out on top of those so that’s it & if the limited penetration solid below becomes available in .510 I’d give that a whirl but the raptor is finally my found out best pill hands down
Yep it’s a bloody good pill that I’ve failed to improve on lol & one I gladly eat crow on
Yes you told me

Yeah, yesterday I had a look for a Lehigh Extreme in .510........ does not existe....... .500 caliber and .458 caliber..... that is the big bores...... I would like to see some field work on this one sometime. The test work is "Extreme" LOL..........

All good........ Yep, Raptor at the top of the list for a "Trauma Pill" as they say down there! HEH.........

 

[Altitude sickness]

Yeah, yesterday I had a look for a Lehigh Extreme in .510........ does not existe....... .500 caliber and .458 caliber..... that is the big bores...... I would like to see some field work on this one sometime. The test work is "Extreme" LOL..........

All good........ Yep, Raptor at the top of the list for a "Trauma Pill" as they say down there! HEH.........

Sorry to bring another Rat Caliber into the fray.

But this 370 grain Raptor went through a mature bull then killed an unseen cow in the brush. The bull fell down hill and died almost instantly ( by the time we walked the 40ish yards) . Not even an insurance shot was needed or used.

The cow made it 60 yards.

Exit wound on the bull shown below

 

[michael458]

@Altitude sickness ................ Will always stand tall in my eyes.......... Two Buffalo, One Shot........

My Hero, and even if it is a Rat caliber .416...........

HEH HEH.........

 

[Altitude sickness]

Sorry Michael. It’s the only 21” barreled Buffalo rifle I had. I ditched the 23” barreled DRs

And don’t own a svelte B&M rifle. Yet