Rifle barrels that will withstand a barrel burner caliber - 6.5X68S

[Gert Odendaal]

Members, I am in need of knowledge and opinions in regards to the following issue :Are there, with new technology rifle barrel manufactures that make rifle barrels that will withstand the destructive force of a caliber like the 6.5x68 ?

I really want to hear from any person who have knowledge about barrel manufacturing processes /metallurgic knowledge as well and any person who has a caliber that is known as a "barrel burner" ...

All information/opinions /practical experience will be welcomed ...

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Gert,

Just get a quality brand barrel and shoot it. Allow it to cool during extended range session and you'll be fine. I recently had a Krieger barrel made for my 404 Jeffery project and the gunsmith really raved about the quality of it when it arrived from the factory. All I know is that it is indeed very accurate and no copper fouling or cleaning issues.

I have a Remington 700 titanium and the barrel gets very hot withing 4-5 shots. Therefore, I let it cool for about 5-10 minutes before shooting another 5 shot string. I often will shoot another rifle while the first one is cooling.

Here's an article by Ron Spomer.
https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/top-10-tricks-extend-barrel-life/
https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/how-to-identify-a-barrel-burner-rifle/

A couple others from Chuck Hawks:
https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm
https://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x68S.htm

Dave

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Dave, your input is much appreciated, I am going through the links now...

 

[IvW]

Often the barrel is not the issue but rather the throat area of the barrel. Over bore caliber always shorten the life span of a barrel.

I have heard rumors of 500 shots barrel done....

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Often the barrel is not the issue but rather the throat area of the barrel. Over bore caliber always shorten the life span of a barrel.

I have heard rumors of 500 shots barrel done....

I was thinking of looking at the design of the barrel..if I can get it made with a longer knox profile I can always re-chamber the throat part ...moving everything forward...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Cutting a new/second chamber will give a second life to the barrel...I will have a reamer as well

 

[steve white]

A longer Knox is also a heat sink, which helps-=but nothing helps like slower shooting.

 

[mark-hunter]

From European perspective, I can not say much of barrel makers in the states, and what options do you guys have.

Left is cut, right is forged. See the layer of materials difference.

But as general recommendation, i would tend to choose hammer forged barrel, rather then cut or button rifled.

Of course there is never ending debate which barrel of the three is better:

1) Cut barrels and button rifled barrels tend to be more accurate. But hammer forged barrels should be more durable.
2) They are all the same, good barrel is just good barrel.

Personally, in case of longevity of barrel, I would go for hammer forged, and even then it is not in conflict with second point.

Cut and button rifled barrels are used practically exclusively on long range matches. Which proves the point on accuracy. On the other hand, longevity of barrel by type is very hard to prove, too much factors. But hammer forged would be my choice - for barrel burner caliber, in hunting.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Thank you members, it really is an interesting discussion..I have looked into possibilities to enhance barrel life...something I find was the polygon" rifling that is a factor to look at..
P5 RIFLING

The second rifle form available, in addition to the above, is our innovation we refer to as P5 rifling. Some refer to it as "polygon" rifling. Most shooters when referring to polygon have thoughts of the European pistol barrels. Ours however is different but has similarities. Some of our customers call our rifling polygon and that is fine with us, however we call it P5. Have to admit the "P" in P5 does have an association. What is different? Most shooters have looked thru a standard barrel and observed the rectangular shape of the lands and grooves - very well defined by the sharp corners at the transition of land to groove and at the top of the land. The P5 however displays no sharp corners when observed. The sharp corners have been replaced with a radius. The net effect is better seal of bullet to barrel and less damage to the bullet preserving its integrity. The most profound result is an increase in bullet velocity. This is not subjective, a chronograph can measure it. In some instances an excess of 100 fps have been recorded. Another attribute is the barrels foul less. This is subjective; however our customers have been consistently reporting this observation without solicitation. What is telling is the fact that the P5 rifling represents 97% of our sales compared to the conventional rifling and we do not advertise!
(Scneider rifle barrels)
There is an indication that well known barrel company that makes a high end grade rifle barrel is now starting to use a special steel( new type) to withstand a barrel burner caliber...

 

[mark-hunter]

"Sabatti rover tactical" rifle has MRR barrel (multi radial rifling), which is very similar to this type what you are referring. (search on google)

I did measure once, velocities of that sabati rifle, (308 win) and velocity of factory ammo, were somewhat higher then I expected. (that rifle belonging to a friend).. I forgot real numbers but if remembering correctly, velocities were higher somewhat beteween 50 to 75 feet/sec.. But I remeber that I was surpirsed.
But i had no chance to compare... with other rifle with same ammo.
At this moment, I am strongly allowing for this option, lets put it this way.

When I get a chance I will compare velocities of same ammunition of this sabbati, and other rifle with conventional rifling, with same barrel length. Then I will know for sure.

So, bottom, line, there is a good chance for higher velocities in polygonal, P5, or MRR rifling, which in that case may indicate a smaller frictions, reduced pressures, reduced barrel wear and tear, etc...

But, for "special steel" I have doubts.
Special "tougher" steel, with reduced wear and tear, would need "special tools", or whatever is needed to make the rifling, chambering, etc

To make new tougher steel, with various alloys, it is probably doable, but for rifle barrel it would require investment to develop special tools. Not cheap.

On the other hand, other "plain and simple" barrels of good quality, can be bought for acceptable price, and the rifle can be re barreled for affordable price.
So, I dont think "new steel" will approve its price. But then, what do I know? technology advances every day... I might be wrong on that.
In any case, "new steel" must be profitable, not only better in theory. If it pays, it stays, right?

 

[Shootist43]

Do Stainless Steel barrels hold up better than Chrome-molly barrels relative to the barrel burner effect you are concerned about? What type of steel is used in machine gun barrels?

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Do Stainless Steel barrels hold up better than Chrome-molly barrels relative to the barrel burner effect you are concerned about? What type of steel is used in machine gun barrels?

This was the same thing I was wondering about????When we were in the army, forty years back we used the R4 automatic rifles( brother of the Galil of Israel) we send thousands of rounds through the barrels and in two years of constant use and abuse shooting a lot on full automatic the R4 rifles kept their accuracy...

Since I am looking at a solution to minimise barrel wear when shooting a 6.5x68 caliber in the near future I am looking from a total different perspective...like the Polygon rifling , longer knox ( heat sink-more steel around the chamber where the most heat is generated, a long barrel to disperse as much gas/burning powder , and maybe a more resistant steel that will degenerate at a slower pace when all the burning/sand blasting takes place when firing the rifle...

Maybe the most important issue being not shooting this caliber lie an ordinary hunting rifle sending a lot of rounds in a short time on a shooting range..

I have a lot of time to study /do research on this issue , it will be great to have members participate in this discussion, so we will be able to get an answer about what combination will be the best to counter the destructive power of a barrel burner caliber like the 6.5 x 68...No where in Germany/Austria can I find any negative views /opinions /literature on the 6.5x68 caliber rifle ..and these are the countries who use this caliber extensive...why would this be???? The 6.5x68 caliber is not seen as a barrel burner in European countries??????

 

[Gert Odendaal]

"Sabatti rover tactical" rifle has MRR barrel (multi radial rifling), which is very similar to this type what you are referring. (search on google)

I did measure once, velocities of that sabati rifle, (308 win) and velocity of factory ammo, were somewhat higher then I expected. (that rifle belonging to a friend).. I forgot real numbers but if remembering correctly, velocities were higher somewhat beteween 50 to 75 feet/sec.. But I remeber that I was surpirsed.
But i had no chance to compare... with other rifle with same ammo.
At this moment, I am strongly allowing for this option, lets put it this way.

When I get a chance I will compare velocities of same ammunition of this sabbati, and other rifle with conventional rifling, with same barrel length. Then I will know for sure.

So, bottom, line, there is a good chance for higher velocities in polygonal, P5, or MRR rifling, which in that case may indicate a smaller frictions, reduced pressures, reduced barrel wear and tear, etc...

But, for "special steel" I have doubts.
Special "tougher" steel, with reduced wear and tear, would need "special tools", or whatever is needed to make the rifling, chambering, etc

To make new tougher steel, with various alloys, it is probably doable, but for rifle barrel it would require investment to develop special tools. Not cheap.

On the other hand, other "plain and simple" barrels of good quality, can be bought for acceptable price, and the rifle can be re barreled for affordable price.
So, I dont think "new steel" will approve its price. But then, what do I know? technology advances every day... I might be wrong on that.
In any case, "new steel" must be profitable, not only better in theory. If it pays, it stays, right?

Mark , I really would appreciate if you can find the time to do this comparison, I am sure we will be able to get more insight into this phenomenon...

 

[Hogpatrol]

Three groove barrel and use a reamer with a three degree lead. I chambered two 26 Noslers and two 28 Noslers. The 26s are extreme barrel burners. I had one melonited. It didn't help. The best practice is load development in COLD weather and no more than two shots after which let the barrel cool to ambient.

Edit: Proper powder selection can help too. Some are hotter burning than others.
My 26 Noslers weres burning in excess of 83 grains of RL33. If my research is correct, your round is in the 60 plus grains of powder. It's a hot one but not that bad.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Three groove barrel and use a reamer with a three degree lead. I chambered two 26 Noslers and two 28 Noslers. The 26s are extreme barrel burners. I had one melonited. It didn't help. The best practice is load development in COLD weather and no more than two shots after which let the barrel cool to ambient.

Hog hunter, please explain this technical info in regards to :
Use of a three groove barrel???( why/what difference does it make?)
Three degree lead?? Why, what difference in comparison to a standard barrel for hunting/ghong shooting???

I will appreciate it very much..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Question: Is the 8x68S considered as a barrel burner or is the eight millimeter diameter ( .323") to large for the load capacity of this caliber..while the 6.5x68 diameter bullet is in ratio much smaller as the eight millimeter bullet diameter????

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Comments in regards to the polygon rifling in barrels:
Rifling is accomplished on computer controlled machines where we can control any given twist rate and rifling form. We use our Polygonal Caudle in P3 or P5 rifling known for its accuracy. Once rifled, we subject the barrels to a number of processes to ensure the stability and accuracy we are known for.

Caudle polygon rifling is featured in all our barrels. Known for accuracy, increased velocity, less bullet deformative, case of , it offers the greatest range of bullet weights and lengths in any given caliber per the twist weight.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Hog hunter, please explain this technical info in regards to :
Use of a three groove barrel???( why/what difference does it make?)
Three degree lead?? Why, what difference in comparison to a standard barrel for hunting/ghong shooting???

I will appreciate it very much..

For a hunting rifle shot judiciously at the range, any good barrel with any number of lands & grooves will work for your cartridge but since you asked how to extend barrel life, I listed those two factors. Three grooves, wider lands, six places for erosion. More grooves and lands, more places for erosion. Generally speaking, most chambers have a one and one half degree lead transition from the freebore to the rifling. Three degrees is double the lead, more metal to resist throat erosion but also more initial pressure.

Having said all this, as long as you don't go to the range and pound five rounds downrange in one minute, any quality barrel will last for a thousand or more rounds.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

For a hunting rifle shot judiciously at the range, any good barrel with any number of lands & grooves will work for your cartridge but since you asked how to extend barrel life, I listed those two factors. Three grooves, wider lands, six places for erosion. More grooves and lands, more places for erosion. Generally speaking, most chambers have a one and one half degree lead transition from the freebore to the rifling. Three degrees is double the lead, more metal to resist throat erosion but also more initial pressure.

Having said all this, as long as you don't go to the range and pound five rounds downrange in one minute, any quality barrel will last for a thousand or more rounds.

This make a lot of sense... thank you it is much appreciated..here is a good write up in regards to the history of Polygon rifling:
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/05/rifling-polygonal-bore-and-whitworth.html

 

[mark-hunter]

Gert, just out of curiosity, what would be intended use of this caliber?