Politics

[Ray B]

Military for civil problems?? I've seen that elephant and it doesn't turn out well for anyone.

 

[mdwest]

Put National Guard troops along the border for their AT, rotation every couple a weeks doing training. Army aviation units could fly up and down the border supporting ground troops. Just their presence would deter some crossings and maybe funnel them into BP checkpoints. They don’t take part in any active policing just “training”.

JTF 6 / JTF North has been flying border missions and has had personnel on the ground for almost 35 years…

It hasn’t deterred much in terms of border crossings…

And they do a whole lot more than “training”

Joint Task Force North - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Wathe208]

What order should I give a young soldier in the scenario you describe.? Shoot that mother and two small children because they are running away? What would be the political and social costs of that sort of draconian ROE?

It is one thing to kill civilians in a collateral damage incident with a bombing mission, another to tell a young private to put that red dot between the shoulder blades of a fleeing noncombatant. Would you be eager to either give that order or actually pull the trigger? By the way, both the action and order would be severely punishable under the Law of Land Warfare.

It is simply the wrong mission for combat troops. Yes you could have the Corps of Engineers do the barrier work - though in reality, they would subcontract to a civilian firm and exercise oversight. Actual combat engineer equipment isn't really designed to build walls. Interior or Homeland Security could to do that yesterday.

I would hope and doubt a mother and children would run, especially considering knowing what the orders/consequences were, but valid point to be sure. As far as a male fleeing, yeah - FAFO. I've known kids who have died from fentanyll/heroin/meth and frankly, I'm tired of it, so yeah.

Regarding the army corps of engineers, of course. But I've seen them get amazing shit done in a short period of time.

Again, was thinking out loud, but actually curios, what would you purpose?

 

[Red Leg]

I would hope and doubt a mother and children would run, especially considering knowing what the orders/consequences were, but valid point to be sure. As far as a male fleeing, yeah - FAFO. I've known kids who have died from fentanyll/heroin/meth and frankly, I'm tired of it, so yeah.

Regarding the army corps of engineers, of course. But I've seen them get amazing shit done in a short period of time.

Again, was thinking out loud, but actually curios, what would you purpose?

Barriers with extensive remote sensing and reaction teams of BP to police the leakers. Perhaps augment with the National Guard until the barrier sensor system is fully in place.''

"As far as a male fleeing, yeah - FAFO" Really? That is tough talk. I have no idea your line of work, but how many people have you killed - particularly unarmed fleeing ones?

No one wearing a US Army uniform will order or participate in the shooting of unarmed non-combatants.

 

[Ray B]

Okay, I'm old and not up with anagrams, but what's FAFO?

 

[mdwest]

Okay, I'm old and not up with anagrams, but what's FAFO?

“Fuck Around and Find Out”

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/15w9udc

 

[Red Leg]

JTF 6 / JTF North has been flying border missions and has had personnel on the ground for almost 35 years…

It hasn’t deterred much in terms of border crossings…

And they do a whole lot more than “training”

Joint Task Force North - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Absolutely true. But they aren't cuffing people or taking very many head shots.

 

[Red Leg]

“Fuck Around and Find Out”

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/15w9udc

A classic case

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721376898100379674

 

[mdwest]

Absolutely true. But they aren't cuffing people or taking very many head shots.

The sad truth is.. the only person I’m aware that they have killed… was an 18 year old US citizen…

Even more reason military forces shouldn’t be used in a domestic policing action..

 

[John Wasmuth]

The sad truth is.. the only person I’m aware that they have killed… was an 18 year old US citizen…

Even more reason military forces shouldn’t be used in a domestic policing action..

On 20 May 1997, during an operation in Redford, Texas, near the United States–Mexico border, Corporal Clemente M. Banuelos, the leader of his squad, fatally shot 18-year-old American citizen Esequiel Hernández, Jr., on the American side of the border. He was holding a .22 caliberrifle he used to protect his herd of goats from predators. Marines alleged that he pointed the rifle at them, although they were some 200 yards away and heavily camouflaged in ghillie suits. No charges were brought at the time or subsequently.[4]

The shooting inspired the 2005 film The Three Burials of Melquíades Estrada by Tommy Lee Jones.[5] The 2007 documentary The Ballad of Esequiel Hernández explores the killing,[6] analyzing both sides of the issue by interviewing the Hernández family and friends, the Marines, and local officials.[7]

 

[Wathe208]

Barriers with extensive remote sensing and reaction teams of BP to police the leakers. Perhaps augment with the National Guard until the barrier sensor system is fully in place.''

"As far as a male fleeing, yeah - FAFO" Really? That is tough talk. I have no idea your line of work, but how many people have you killed - particularly unarmed fleeing ones?

No one wearing a US Army uniform will order or participate in the shooting of unarmed non-combatants.

Do we have enough BP agents to do this, and isn't the Nat. Guard mitary? This leads to a Military vs Civil issue as previously posted.

Now you can be snarky and pedantic as is your typical MO to anyone who dares think differently than you, but no, I have not killed anyone and hope to never have to. I do have a few military friends (much friendlier) that are sick of the issues at the border that would love to run down fleeing non-compliant folks at the border. Bullets aren't the only way to stop someone from fleeing. As far as what I do, it's really none of your business. Originally, I had you pegged for retired attorney, LE, or Military. It quickly became obvious

It is humorous to me, however, that so often you bash Trump and the MAGA crowd, yet are so similar to him. You're egocentric infallibility is beyond refute, you're an ass to anyone who disagrees with you, then your toadies (your own personal MAGA crowd) jumps in for support. You're obviously quite educated in a number of areas, but your ability to step in someone else's shoes or allow time for another's thoughts to permiate your highest of moral opinions, quite simply, lacks.

I'm sure the point of this will fall on deaf ears and I'll just let the toadies attack....later!

 

[Wathe208]

“Fuck Around and Find Out”

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/15w9udc

I use "Fool Around - Find Out" at our house, for consequences of chores not done mostly.

 

[Wheels]

Current progress. Hamas HQ is under Shifa Hospital.

 

[ActionBob]

Senator Joe Manchin is not going to run for re-election in 2024.

He made the statement that he is going to travel the country seeking to mobilize people to the middle moderate, and try to unify people.

I wish him luck, and hope he is successful.

That was a very smart move. He wasn't going to be reelected anyway. He should have switched parties rather than let himself be screwed over by Biden. It cost him his seat and he's smart enough to know when to quit.

Wouldn't surprise me to see him try to turn this into a 3rd party run at the presidency.

 

[mdwest]

I’m hopeful WV will put a republican in his seat. Manchin was pretty good about voting his mind and not strictly toeing the party line… if another D follows him into that seat my guess is they will lean further left and more reliably support the party’s agenda

 

[Red Leg]

Do we have enough BP agents to do this, and isn't the Nat. Guard mitary? This leads to a Military vs Civil issue as previously posted.

Now you can be snarky and pedantic as is your typical MO to anyone who dares think differently than you, but no, I have not killed anyone and hope to never have to. I do have a few military friends (much friendlier) that are sick of the issues at the border that would love to run down fleeing non-compliant folks at the border. Bullets aren't the only way to stop someone from fleeing. As far as what I do, it's really none of your business. Originally, I had you pegged for retired attorney, LE, or Military. It quickly became obvious

It is humorous to me, however, that so often you bash Trump and the MAGA crowd, yet are so similar to him. You're egocentric infallibility is beyond refute, you're an ass to anyone who disagrees with you, then your toadies (your own personal MAGA crowd) jumps in for support. You're obviously quite educated in a number of areas, but your ability to step in someone else's shoes or allow time for another's thoughts to permiate your highest of moral opinions, quite simply, lacks.

I'm sure the point of this will fall on deaf ears and I'll just let the toadies attack....later!

I sincerely apologize if I was an ass. But I responded to your initial suggestion, I think quite reasonably, by pointing out that engaging unarmed combatants was a clear violation of the Law of Land Warfare - that no commanding officer would order it and that no enlisted man should follow such an order. You then responded with what I quoted above. Read what you wrote again. You weren't talking about inviting them to leave. "As far as a male fleeing, yeah - FAFO" I did indeed think that was an absurd statement. And yes, as someone who wore the uniform for a while it does bother me that anyone would think American soldiers would or should ever obey such an order.

I realize this is a thread that is too often not meant to be a meaningful discussion of the days events. It is instead an opportunity for angry old guys to bemoan the state of the country and the world. I do it myself. But occasionally things are worth putting into something other than rhetorical context. US national interests, where I differ with much of the MAGA chorus, are one and the limitations of military force are another.

 

[Red Leg]

I’m hopeful WV will put a republican in his seat. Manchin was pretty good about voting his mind and not strictly toeing the party line… if another D follows him into that seat my guess is they will lean further left and more reliably support the party’s agenda

That is my fear as well. Though W. Virginia is otherwise about as red as possible. As long as Trump stays out of it, the state Republican leadership can likely coalesce around a candidate that should easily win.

The real sad thing is that a moderate republican or democrat are approaching extinction.

 

[Ray B]

Joe Manchin fell for the Bait & Switch/Promise then Renege of the DemonRats. I suppose he could no longer stand for the lies of the Democrat party and was too old to become a Republican.

 

[Red Leg]

Joe Manchin fell for the Bait & Switch/Promise then Renege of the DemonRats. I suppose he could no longer stand for the lies of the Democrat party and was too old to become a Republican.

I think that is true. Also, Trump carried W. Virginia by nearly 40 pts. Assuming a quality opponent next year, retirement can look a lot better than defeat.

 

[lwaters]

Seem to recall that Lincoln had the same problem during the civil war and censored the press?....

I would question if those civil war battles were aired on TV. Half the soldiers would have just gone home.