On lever's and pump actions

VertigoBE

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Dear AH friends,
Seeing a recently started thread on pump rifles, and having read many threads on lever rifles, one topic always comes up, when adding big calibers into the mix: "Lever or pump action rifles do no have a strong enough action, for the .375 and up calibers".

I've always wondered about why this would be? Imagine any straight pull rifle, for example the venerable Blaser R8. What would be the difference in operating the bolt with a lever or pump slide, instead of the side attached bolt "lever". As far as I can tell, no part of the strength of the bolt mating and locking into the barrel, is coming from how the bolt is being operated. It comes from the locking lugs in one form or the other.

Perhaps someone can explain to my simple mind, why no one ever built something like this? The R8 and many other straight pull rifles have more than proven to be strong enough to be used with up to .50 calibers (.500 Jeffery). What if the bolt assembly would move forward and back, not due to a "lever" attached to the side, but rather operated like a levergun, or a pump action of sorts?

This is mostly an academic question (the answer being that there is not much demand for such) but it still begs the question why no one technically could do this.

Looking forward to your input!

V.
 
A good question. Since today's available materials are much stronger.

A few months ago I got back into lever guns, original production Winchester and Marlin, and really hadn't much thought about why no big calibers in a lever gun.

Browning produced the BLR in various high power, (30-06, 270, etc,) bottle neck calibers with a detached box magazine for North America big game hunters.

Marlin lever actions are considered to be much stronger than Winchester lever actions using modern smokeless powders.

And then there is Henry firearms claims to have a strong lever action design.

I can only hypothetise that it has to do with the lever action design.

The locking lugs are behind the bolt, and the bolt is straight face versus having the locking lugs at the front of the bolt that lock the bolt at the chamber as the bolt is rotated.

When lever actions were first introduced black powder was still the prominent powder. There was a smokeless black powder but it isn't the same smokeless powder that was being developed in the late mid ~1880ish.

I have original Winchester 1892 and 1894 both manufactured to handle both black powder and the new (1880's) smokeless powder. From what information I have found is that lever actions prior to 1894-96 time frame had weaker locking lugs. From 1894 to current production lever actions have stronger locking lugs, but are still located at the rear of the bolt/action making for a weaker design than the rotating bolt design.
 
You are absolutely correct that the locking lugs and their recesses or seats are the determining factor in an actions strength, not how the action is operated.

My guess is that pump's, like lever rifles, slowly lost popularity because they were perceived to be less accurate than bolt action rifles.

Once the bolt action became the standard Military rifle in most countries, and refinements made civilian bolt action rifles reliable and accurate, the pump and lever rifles declined in popularity.
 
To answer your question in the simplest way, it is possible. Just like you hypothesized, if you added a Rube Goldberg type sliding fore-end and a linkage rod to the bolt handle to a Blaser R8 you would have a pump action capable of handling some of the largest DG cartridges. Or do the same to a Beretta BRX1 type action with rotating bolt. The part of the equation missing would be means of holding the action closed until the round is fired, adding a pump action to a Blaser R8 would require you not to exert any rearward force on pump handle until you fire, otherwise bolt would be unlocked out of battery if action is cocked. Pump actions have a action bar that locks the action until hammer drops. Adding a lever would not necessitate an action lock, as the user naturally holds the lever shut during the firing process.

Browning built/builds lever actions (BLR) and pump actions (BPR) in belted magnum cartridges, one of these could be built in .416 Taylor or .458 WM. It certainly is possible, the question is would it sell ?
 
To answer your question in the simplest way, it is possible. Just like you hypothesized, if you added a Rube Goldberg type sliding fore-end and a linkage rod to the bolt handle to a Blaser R8 you would have a pump action capable of handling some of the largest DG cartridges. Or do the same to a Beretta BRX1 type action with rotating bolt. The part of the equation missing would be means of holding the action closed until the round is fired, adding a pump action to a Blaser R8 would require you not to exert any rearward force on pump handle until you fire, otherwise bolt would be unlocked out of battery if action is cocked. Pump actions have a action bar that locks the action until hammer drops. Adding a lever would not necessitate an action lock, as the user naturally holds the lever shut during the firing process.

Browning built/builds lever actions (BLR) and pump actions (BPR) in belted magnum cartridges, one of these could be built in .416 Taylor or .458 WM. It certainly is possible, the question is would it sell ?
A pump or lever in a capable African DG caliber could certainly be built on one of the Browning actions. Although not 100% technically correct, I've always thought of the Browning actions as a having a Weatherby MKV bolt, so the strength is there. These rifles were factory chambered in magnum cartridges and had a magnum bolt face, extractor, ejector, etc., so it should be technically possible.

With an experienced shooter, a pump or lever rifle in a DG caliber would be faster on the second and third shots than any bolt gun.

The question that's already been asked is, with the momentum so firmly in favor of the bolt action, could a pump or lever rifle make any headway in the DG market?
 
Same for the Remington 760, lockup is very strong with the multi-lug artillery style bolt and they are chambered in modern high pressure cartridges. A scaled up version of the 760 in dangerous game cartridges would certainly work, probably not financially feasible however.

Capture 760 bolt.PNG


Another rifle with possibilities is the Krieghoff Semprio, it is also available in belted magnum chamberings. It is a "reverse" pump action, and should also be able to be modified for DG cartridges.
 
The Remington 760 will work, 7600 is better. Both are equally strong, but the 7600 has fewer, larger locking lugs on the bolt. I consider it more reliable. So did Remington, and that is why the improved 7600 replaced the 760 in their lineup. Both are good to over 60,000psi. The modern Winchester/Browning 1895 is good to over 60,000psi, while the modern Marlin 1895 is rated about 42,000psi, and the modern Winchester 1886 and 71 are good to around 50,000psi. Older guns, and other Winchester models rated for much less pressure. Browning BLR's and BPR's are chambered in belted magnums OF STANDARD LENGTH (i.e. 7mmRM and 300WM) and rated above 60,000psi, like Roklok stated. None of the above rifles would work for magnum LENGTH cartridges like the 375 H&H and similar due to action and magazine length.

The Browning/Winchester 1895 has been converted to 375 Hawk, 375 Whelen, 411 Hawk and 400 Whelen. I prefer the Browning due to the half-cock safety. The Browning 1895 in 375 Hawk and 411 Hawk were used as stopping rifles on Alaska's biggest bears by the late great Alaskan guide Ed Stevenson, especially the 411. Of course what he could do with a rifle under pressure and what I can do with a rifle under pressure are probably 2 different things. He used 350gr-360gr .411 bullets at over 2300fps and over 4200fpe to great effect on big bears. He was also fond of using the Browning 1886 in 45-70 with a 400gr bullet at around 1900fps on the big bears. In retirement, killed maybe his last bear while walking his dogs in town with a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in 45-70. The bear attacked the wrong dogs. The only thing stopping a charge from an animal that size is a CNS shot, and a person could do a lot worse than having fast handling levergun in those situations, as long as the gun is powerful enough. Again, Stevenson's skill level, experience, and knowledge of the animals made him able to do things with a rifle in a charge situation that a novice could not. Earlier in his career Stevenson was mauled after being attacked by a 10 foot grizzly. Protecting his client from the unwounded bear, he was only able to get off one shot to the chest with his 375 H&H bolt action before the bear was on him. The client hunter saved Ed by shooting the bear when the bear was on top of Ed. After this incident, Ed started looking for faster handling and shooting rifle options, and he settled on the lever actions. The 411 Hawk and 400 Whelen will also do over 2150fps with 400gr bullets for 4000fpe. This matches the ballistics the 450/400 made its fine reputation on with everything from elephant on down. While the 450/400 is not considered a stopping rifle for tough African game, it has a well deserved reputation as a fine hunting rifle for ALL African DG. You can load modern 450/400's hotter, whereas the 400 Whelen is maxed out at 400gr at 2150-2200fps. Still, pretty impressive for a 30-06 case. I have a Browning 1895 in 30-06 and I am looking for a gunsmith to convert to 400 Whelen. JES was hesitant to rebore the 1895. The fixed box magazine must be modded to reliably feed the bigger rounds.

I have a couple Rem 7600's in 30-06 and I have located a smith that will re-barrel to 400 Whelen, but will not do the magazine/reliability work. I can to that work myself. These 7600's were made by Remington in 35 Whelen. This is a very powerful round in it's own right, and this 35 Whelen pump action was popular in AK for bear hunting/protection. The 35 Whelen is very similar to the 9.3x62, just .008 less diameter than 9.3. I wish I could find a gunsmith to open up the bolt face of the 7600 for belted magnums, and beef up the extractor. For me personally, the pump action is probably the fastest accurate second shot of any magazine fed action type when firing heavy rounds. Almost as fast as a double rifle for me in heavy recoiling calibers, probably owing to the fact that I grew up using pump action 12ga's for wing shooting since my teen years, and still do. Another advantage of the 7600 is that you can have a gunsmith make extra barrels for the same gun, and you can switch barrels in the field with a few tools in about 15 minutes. Not exactly considered a takedown model, but you can easily switch a Remington 7600 from a 30-06 to 35 Whelen to 375 Whelen to 9.3x62 to 400 Whelen in minutes in camp, pretty handy. I hope to have a 30-06, 35 Whelen, 375 Whelen, and 400 Whelen set made for one of my 7600's. I think a 35 Whelen for PG, and a 400 Whelen for DG would be a perfect combination for Africa. Bob "35 Whelen" Nelson on this forum loads 300gr bullets in the 35 Whelen bolt action to between 2400-2500fps.

I also have a Browning BLR in 7mm RM and I am looking for a gunsmith to re-barrel to 416 Ruger or 458 WM. I saw a BLR converted to 416 Ruger on GB. This rifle was new and listed by Aria Ballistics, who did the conversion. Aria Ballistics is in the process of moving to another state, and will probably do this work for me when they get settled. I think of all the heavy pump and heavy levergun options, the BLR is probably potentially the most reliable with heavy loads due to rack and pinion mechanism between the bolt and lever giving very powerful mechanical advantage for extraction if needed. Same mechanism as used on arbor presses.

So there are a few leverguns and pumps that will work in calibers power enough for hunting African DG. Cape Buffalo have been taken with Marlin Guide guns in 45-70 (which I would not do, even though I own one and I like the rifle), but I would feel a lot better carrying a lever action or pump in 400 Whelen, 416 Ruger, or 458 WM. If I ever get one built, I will let you know it turns out.
 
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Quite a few years ago Browning made a pump rifle, really identical to the BAR, and it was chambered in magnum rounds like 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag. They didn’t sell well and now are very collectible. I’ve read of the BAR being customized to 458 Win Mag so I don’t see why that couldn’t be done to their BPR pump rifle, if you can find one. You would be restricted to 458 Win Mag length cartridges. Here’s a link to the BPR rifle.

 
Dear AH friends,
Seeing a recently started thread on pump rifles, and having read many threads on lever rifles, one topic always comes up, when adding big calibers into the mix: "Lever or pump action rifles do no have a strong enough action, for the .375 and up calibers".

I've always wondered about why this would be? Imagine any straight pull rifle, for example the venerable Blaser R8. What would be the difference in operating the bolt with a lever or pump slide, instead of the side attached bolt "lever". As far as I can tell, no part of the strength of the bolt mating and locking into the barrel, is coming from how the bolt is being operated. It comes from the locking lugs in one form or the other.

Perhaps someone can explain to my simple mind, why no one ever built something like this? The R8 and many other straight pull rifles have more than proven to be strong enough to be used with up to .50 calibers (.500 Jeffery). What if the bolt assembly would move forward and back, not due to a "lever" attached to the side, but rather operated like a levergun, or a pump action of sorts?

This is mostly an academic question (the answer being that there is not much demand for such) but it still begs the question why no one technically could do this.

Looking forward to your input!

V.
LOok up a savage model 99
Made them up to 375 win.

Id imagine some the isue is to scale it up to a point makes for a bulky rifle. But the maim reason you dont see it is simple market economics. Lets say you made a super cool kever gun in 416 rigby. How big is your market share vs manufacturing costs?
 
Well, this thread triggered me to join. For the BLR you can currently buy takedown barrels from Midwest Gun Works and the Gunparts corp. I bought a BLR in 300 win mag. Later I purchased two 7mm Rem Mag barrels. Jesse reobored one to 338 win mag and the other to 375 Taylor. The 338 handles normal 338 loads. The 375 Taylor will do 2500 fps with a 300 grain Barnes. So, 375 H&H performance from a lever action, really bolt action with a lever instead of a bolt.

All of the barrels would close on a go and a no-go from the factory. None will close on a field. So safe, but a little sloppy as delivered by Browning. Not a bad idea for a lever. The barrels switch with the takedown latch. Scopes are all in Weaver grand slams quick detachable rings. When making a switch, I always get 2 moa or better, so far. No tools required. There are two different 7mm mag magazines in the wild. Only one type works with my rig. I chose the Taylor over the Ruger, because I heard rumors of feeding problems with the Ruger. As I said, I have feeding problems (as in not at all) from one type of 7mm mag magazine. The other has so far been the grass though as goose for feeding.

Other than a rebore and a trigger job, the rest is home built from available parts. I wanted to make the barrels as different as possible.

BLR Barrel Set.jpg
 
Very cool rig arniet !! Welcome !

As far as 760 vs 7600, I believe they are both equally capable of handling high pressure rounds. My understanding is the locking lug design was changed due to the 740/742 autos chewing up the receivers. The new 7400/Four (auto) and 7600/Six (pump) have the 4 lug bolt and a hardened insert in the top receiver raceway to enhance durability, primarily in the autos. The pumps were also given the same treatment to maintain commonality across the line, but I have never heard of durability or reliability problems with the 760. In fact there were gunsmiths that converted the 742s with worn out receivers to pump action using 760 parts and they generally worked fine after converting to pump. I grew up in Pennsylvania where both are extremely popular, and old 760s are still out getting the job done.

I have two 7600s and one 1960 production 760. I prefer the pre-'68 760s that have the full length action tube over the later 760s and the 7600s, though they are all fine rifles. I have my 760 set up as a switch barrel with .30-06 and .35 Whelen barrels.

There is a vendor on Ebay selling new production 7600 barrel extensions to facilitate having custom barrels made.
 
I wonder how an 1895 action would handle a rebated cartridge. I have a 416 wildcat I’ve been working on using the 338 Weatherby rpm case. Case capacity would be the same as a 416 Taylor.
 
Quite a few years ago Browning made a pump rifle, really identical to the BAR, and it was chambered in magnum rounds like 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag. They didn’t sell well and now are very collectible. I’ve read of the BAR being customized to 458 Win Mag so I don’t see why that couldn’t be done to their BPR pump rifle, if you can find one. You would be restricted to 458 Win Mag length cartridges. Here’s a link to the BPR rifle.

I have seen a few of these on GB from time to time, but haven't purchased one yet. I have a real affinity for pump rifles, and this is the only one I know factory chambered for belted magnums. I want a pump in 458 WM. The BAR was successfully converted to 458WM, so I am sure it will work in the BPR.

Thanks for the article. 4 red flag issues popped out at me as I read:

1. "smallish extractor" - not good for DG rifle in hot climates.
2. Mag release inside trigger guard. Really not good on heavy recoiling DG rifle, especially one under 8 pounds.
3. Finnicky magazine floor plate that does not want to close properly. Combined with No. 2 above, this could be a deal breaker for using a BPR on DG.
4. Accuracy wasn't great, but that can usually be improved in most rifle designs.

All in all, I might need to reconsider building a 458WM pump action. Looks like I may need to spend a lot of time with that BLR instead, or get someone to do the bolt face on a Remington 7600 to work with a belted mag case. That should not be a problem for a good gunsmith. It is a relatively common procedure.
 
Very cool rig arniet !! Welcome !

As far as 760 vs 7600, I believe they are both equally capable of handling high pressure rounds. My understanding is the locking lug design was changed due to the 740/742 autos chewing up the receivers. The new 7400/Four (auto) and 7600/Six (pump) have the 4 lug bolt and a hardened insert in the top receiver raceway to enhance durability, primarily in the autos. The pumps were also given the same treatment to maintain commonality across the line, but I have never heard of durability or reliability problems with the 760. In fact there were gunsmiths that converted the 742s with worn out receivers to pump action using 760 parts and they generally worked fine after converting to pump. I grew up in Pennsylvania where both are extremely popular, and old 760s are still out getting the job done.

I have two 7600s and one 1960 production 760. I prefer the pre-'68 760s that have the full length action tube over the later 760s and the 7600s, though they are all fine rifles. I have my 760 set up as a switch barrel with .30-06 and .35 Whelen barrels.

There is a vendor on Ebay selling new production 7600 barrel extensions to facilitate having custom barrels made.
Lots of good info.

I bought a couple of those barrel extensions already. I will probably order a few more "just in case", or end up wishing I had.
 
You may be on to something with the idea of opening up a 7600 bolt, don't know if its ever been done. I did just drop a .458 WM round through the ejection port of my 760, it passes but is close. Might have to open up the ejection port a bit for reliability if everything else works. I was able to fit three .458 cases in an older all steel 760/7600 magazine, but again it was tight.

I think the hard part will be getting the extractor set up after opening bolt face. Maybe a 700 magnum extractor would work. With the small ejection port, ejection angle would be critical.
 

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