Mark Sullivan the Expose’

[Hunter-Habib]

As we know there is so much misunderstanding on this thread!
I’d hope to soothe some of it but I can see that there are those that won’t let go sadly…
And with being called a drunk by an idiot millennial that has zero knowledge of any players here or a grasp on reality I think @Hunter-Habib I failed in what I tried to do…
So I apologize to Mark and all of our friends! @Hunter-Habib I really thought that the forum would be more accepting but I was sadly wrong! I’ll leave with this and hope the thread will die!

Lynnette Apr 2019
A Judgemental Society

We live in a judgemental society
Where the real you is only abstract.
From a young age we are taught to believe
That only society can define how you act.
We live in a judgemental society
Where no one seems to win.
Forced to be someone society defines,
The real you fades within.

@CZDiesel

To be fair (as all men must always strive to be), the First Amendment guarantees a Freedom Of Speech. While Mark is our friend and we have a right to bring his more positive aspects out to the public eye, his critics do have a right to express their dislike for him (and their reasons for doing so).

Granted, we might not necessarily agree with their reasonings, but they must be able to express their opinions without anybody here getting into a personal conflict with anybody else (even millennials/the youth).

So yes, now & then… a Mark Sullivan related thread will come up. I will always do my best to highlight his more positive aspects (in a fair & unbiased manner). As I am sure you will too. But he will have critics. Some might look at our posts and maybe develop a more positive outlook towards him. Some might (in turn) criticize us. But that’s only fair. It comes with the territory.

I try to avoid arguing with people regarding their personal interpretation of sporting ethics. But I always do strive to step in & correct any false anecdotes which people might be presenting as fact. If I’ve properly done that much, then my moral obligation to my friend is clear.

 

[275r7x57]

You are correct on first shots, I have no problem with him hunting his way. The problem that many have is not shooting a dying wounded animal at the first opportunity. Where is the decency in that? As for Mark’s brown bear comments, I didn’t hear them myself but I actually know @WAB and he is a gentleman of the first order and if he says it happened, it happened. Mark’s bear comments are nothing but ludicrous and unchecked bravado.

@Scott CWO, for the couple of videos that I have watched, not shooting a wounded animal at first chance is not the case.

@WAB asked a great question a few pages back, that I have not seen answered.

I have asked a few questions that have not been answered yet either. So I will ask again. Maybe you or someone else can provide a real response.

Filleting and scaling fish alive?

Bow hunting whitetail and waiting 30 plus minutes for it to die?

Bow hunting an elephant of buffalo and giving it 30 minutes to a hour for it to lay down and die?

How about catch and releasing fish? You catch a fish, injure it, take pictures of it for your own gratification and release it, all while the fish is out of the water suffocating to death.

The list goes on. Is this ethical?

 

[WAB]

One very simple question, does or has Mark Sullivan intentionally wounded buffalo and then pushed them to provoke a charge? If the answer is yes to this question, there is no set of ethics you can point to that would condone his actions. If the answer is no, then all we have is a style issue. I have my opinion, but I will leave it at that.

I truly would like to see those who know MS better than I do answer this question. For me, the answer to this questions puts the rest of the discussion to rest.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

@Scott CWO, for the couple of videos that I have watched, not shooting a wounded animal at first chance is not the case.

@WAB asked a great question a few pages back, that I have not seen answered.

I have asked a few questions that have not been answered yet either. So I will ask again. Maybe you or someone else can provide a real response.

Filleting and scaling fish alive?

Bow hunting whitetail and waiting 30 plus minutes for it to die?

Bow hunting an elephant of buffalo and giving it 30 minutes to a hour for it to lay down and die?

How about catch and releasing fish? You catch a fish, injure it, take pictures of it for your own gratification and release it, all while the fish is out of the water suffocating to death.

The list goes on. Is this ethical?

This is called whataboutism.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I will not cast stones or make judgments on Mr Sullivan.

From my very limited outside information it appears he is our generations Peter Capstick. Hyping the Death and Danger to sell a product. It’s a great marketing method. So pretty savvy business.

I would guess that any clients he books either seek him out for the above mentioned selling points. They want the added celebrity atmosphere and possibly even the increased odds of a charge (Death and Danger). Which is ok.

I prefer to shoot my own animals. But anyone hunting with Mr Sullivan back in the day knew exactly what they were buying. Them potentially being out of the cameras focus. Most clients don’t want to be or do well on screen.

Many of us prefer the hunt to be about us and focused on us not a celebrity. For decades I have personally stayed away from any outfits that promote how many or how often “Celebrities” hunt with them. It’s on my checklist when vetting outfits. If they start bragging about celebrities hunting with them. I’m out. I may have excluded some great hunts from my narrow mindedness.

Now there are some hunters I would have loved to share a camp with. Chuck Yeager is one hunter I would have loved to share a campfire with.

Until Chuck tried to jump in front of me to shoot my animal

 

[275r7x57]

I truly would like to see those who know MS better than I do answer this question. For me, the answer to this questions puts the rest of the discussion to rest.

@WAB, thank you for your response. I have no reason to discount it.

 

[275r7x57]

I will not cast stones or make judgments on Mr Sullivan.

From my very limited outside information it appears he is our generations Peter Capstick. Hyping the Death and Danger to sell a product. It’s a great marketing method. So pretty savvy business.

I would guess that any clients he books either seek him out for the above mentioned selling points. They want the added celebrity atmosphere and possibly even the increased odds of a charge (Death and Danger). Which is ok.

I prefer to shoot my own animals. But anyone hunting with Mr Sullivan back in the day knew exactly what they were buying. Them potentially being out of the cameras focus. Most clients don’t want to be or do well on screen.

Many of us prefer the hunt to be about us and focused on us not a celebrity. For decades I have personally stayed away from any outfits that promote how many or how often “Celebrities” hunt with them. It’s on my checklist when vetting outfits. If they start bragging about celebrities hunting with them. I’m out. I may have excluded some great hunts from my narrow mindedness.

Now there are some hunters I would have loved to share a camp with. Chuck Yeager is one hunter I would have loved to share a campfire with.

Until Chuck tried to jump in front of me to shoot my animal

Cannot disagree with you here.

 

[275r7x57]

This is called whataboutism.

For the record, are justifying everything I asked as ethnic?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I truly would like to see those who know MS better than I do answer this question. For me, the answer to this questions puts the rest of the discussion to rest.

As per his own words,

“No, I’ve never shot any game just so that I could get a charge for a camera. But I have gotten in their faces and let them know that I’m hunting them”.

I’ll make you an open offer (no sarcasm intended). I can make you talk to him and ask him this question yourself if you don’t take my word for it (which I’ll happily understand).

I know that some of Mark’s previous interactions with you left a negative impression on your mind. That’s very fair and understandable. But I believe him when he says that he never shot at game specifically to provoke a charge.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

For the record, are justifying everything I asked as ethnic?

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-is-whataboutism-EhAc3yetTheSR6jmlLFL9g

 

[WAB]

As per his own words,

“No, I’ve never shot any game just so that I could get a charge for a camera. But I have gotten in their faces and let them know that I’m hunting them”.

I’ll make you an open offer (no sarcasm intended). I can make you talk to him and ask him this question yourself if you don’t take my word for it (which I’ll happily understand).

I know that some of Mark’s previous interactions with you left a negative impression on your mind. That’s very fair and understandable. But I believe him when he says that he never shot at game specifically to provoke a charge.

I know you to be a man of your word and accept what you say. My understanding of our conversation was different, but I was younger and had very little patience for braggadocio. I will just leave it as we have very different and incompatible personalities.

 

[275r7x57]

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-is-whataboutism-EhAc3yetTheSR6jmlLFL9g

I know what word means. Are you not also deflecting attention away from answering my questions?

You and others are stating that not dispatching a wounded animal as quick as possible is unethical. To this, I do not disagree.

My questions is, how and why is it acceptable to bow hunt a deer, elephant, buffalo or you name it, and want 30 minutes to an hour of the animal to lay down and die? Why and how is this acceptable and justified ethical?

 

[WAB]

I know what word means. Are you not also deflecting attention away from answering my questions?

You and others are stating that not dispatching a wounded animal as quick as possible is unethical. To this, I do not disagree.

My questions is, how and why is it acceptable to bow hunt a deer, elephant, buffalo or you name it, and want 30 minutes to an hour of the animal to lay down and die? Why and how is this acceptable and justified ethical?

For the same reason you leave a rifle shot animal some time before following up. A wounded animal will stiffen and possibly die if left undisturbed. Follow up too quickly and you run the risk of getting their adrenaline pumping, causing them to run further, prolonging their misery and possibly losing them. IMO you are conflating issues.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I know what word means. Are you not also deflecting attention away from answering my questions?

You and others are stating that not dispatching a wounded animal as quick as possible is unethical. To this, I do not disagree.

My questions is, how and why is it acceptable to bow hunt a deer, elephant, buffalo or you name it, and want 30 minutes to an hour of the animal to lay down and die? Why and how is this acceptable and justified ethical?

You are attempting to broaden the conversation in order to deflect away from the topic. I’m not saying your questions don’t have merit. It’s just that you should probably start your own thread(s) on those topics. You most definitely are engaging in whataboutism. This thread is about MS. Anyone who tries to change the subject or deflect has already lost.

 

[275r7x57]

For the same reason you leave a rifle shot animal some time before following up. A wounded animal will stiffen and possibly die if left undisturbed. Follow up too quickly and you run the risk of getting their adrenaline pumping, causing them to run further, prolonging their misery and possibly losing them. IMO you are conflating issues.

I already know the reasons and completely agree with you.

What I do understand is stating that MS does not finish off wounded animals fast. Why is the any different from your response.

For the videos that I have watched, finishing them off fast enough is for from the case. MS charges in there up close for the kill.

 

[hwr239]

I feel like these threads keep saying things like “he’s grown a lot, “he really regrets things he said X years ago”, “he’s changed his positions”.

The fellow was kicked out of SCI because of his videos and his ideas. It’s not just the hunting community that takes issue with what he does.

I’m all for forgiveness and second chances, but the way I see it is this: he is still selling those videos that espouse the beliefs that rubbed people the wrong way. As long as he is making money off his old ideas, he is going to be judged by his old ideas.

If he wants to be reevaluated by the public he should put a statement on his website that explains his new beliefs and discontinue (or re-cut) his films.

He wasn't kicked out of SCI for his videos. That is a rumor that uninformed people have claimed for years. Nor was he kicked out for his "ideas." That seems a little Draconian.

 

[Vintageguy]

@Scott CWO, for the couple of videos that I have watched, not shooting a wounded animal at first chance is not the case.

@WAB asked a great question a few pages back, that I have not seen answered.

I have asked a few questions that have not been answered yet either. So I will ask again. Maybe you or someone else can provide a real response.

Filleting and scaling fish alive?

Bow hunting whitetail and waiting 30 plus minutes for it to die?

Bow hunting an elephant of buffalo and giving it 30 minutes to a hour for it to lay down and die?

How about catch and releasing fish? You catch a fish, injure it, take pictures of it for your own gratification and release it, all while the fish is out of the water suffocating to death.

The list goes on. Is this ethical?

I will respond to some of these because I think you are correct in your statement that they have to do with ethics also.
I kill fish before cleaning because my ethics won’t allow me to do otherwise.
I don’t bow hunt because I personally would not like to go that way myself and I’ve encountered too many horribly wounded deer a month after the season while grouse hunting that I’ve had to dispatch. It’s amazing what an animal can live a long time with before infection and starvation takes them out.
Now hunting dangerous game with a bow is another no go for me. I believe you should be able to finish what you start. How many videos are out there of bow hunters sticking a lion and then needing rescuing by their PH? I know of two for sure. Those lions would’ve ended them if not for the PH. That’s irresponsible to me and akin to smacking a big man and then having your buddies hold him back to keep him from stomping the pudding out of you. Also, it puts others in the party at risk but they knew what they set out to do so that’s on them. Another ethical judgement on who deserves my sympathy there.
I know guys that bow hunt non dangerous game, my son does, and waiting to follow up is ethical for the sake of recovery and quickening the end, which is also true of a rifle shot. But as I stated, hunting with a bow holds no appeal to me on ethical grounds because it typically takes longer bringing death than a rifle. But I make another ethical decision to keep my opinions to myself with those who love it. I realize that the skills often associated with that form of hunting and the traditions make it acceptable to those who do it and a no confrontational topic for me.
I hold ethics as do most and they frame my behavior but another ethic I hold is minding my own business, whenever possible, which I found saves me a lot of arguments and bruises. Lol. There’s things I agree with that I’ll defend, things I disagree agree with that I have to make an ethical and moral decision on as to my reaction. I typically decide that by asking myself “if you let it go, will it cause you mental anguish later”. When I was a little boy I watched a bully 5 years older and much bigger than me make a friend eat grass and as I moved to help he threatened me and I stopped. Over the next several months I concluded a butt whooping would’ve been healed within a few days but living with the fact I stood there and did nothing was a thousand times worse. I got over that anguish only after literally kicking the snot out of that bully during his next attack on another friend. New cowboy boots and a lucky first blow while he was on top of my buddy carried the day and healed what ailed me.
Ethics and morals are hard to manage, hence laws. Everyone has to decide where their line is and intelligent people will move those lines with information. Lots of information in this thread as there are with a lot of topics here.

 

[hwr239]

I’m not going to try to dissuade you or anybody from disliking him, but I will correct one anecdote of yours.

Starting from 2023, SCI has now set aside all their differences with Mark. He attended the 2023 SCI convention at Nashville after 15 years (they invited him themselves). And most of the people there were quite happy to see him back. He will be attending all the future conventions as well.

The people claiming he was kicked out for his videos are only reciting unsubstantiated allegations that were very far from the truth.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I already know the reasons and completely agree with you.

What I do understand is stating that MS does not finish off wounded animals fast. Why is the any different from your response.

For the videos that I have watched, finishing them off fast enough is for from the case. MS charges in there up close for the kill.

An ethical hunter who actually cares about the animals he hunts will do everything in his/her power to end the animals suffering in as quick a manner as possible. What is possible obviously varies depending on method of take. How long it may take also depends on whether or not you can actually see the animal or not. If you can see the animal and have a shot you have no excuse for prolonging it.

Watch the first scene of this video (the comment section of which is hilariously turned off). He has time to get the client a shot and yet chooses to coax an already wounded buff into a charge.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I see what you mean.

He puts the client off to the right in a less than favorable angle. He takes the best frontal position. Says wait. Then shoots as he tells the client to shoot. So at least the client got to shoot the dead bull on the ground.