Mark Sullivan the Expose’

[Rubberhead]

Gun hunting a Buffalo with Mark Sullivan is like bow hunting a buffalo with anyone else...there's a darn good chance that your PH is going to shoot your buffalo at least twice...

 

[rookhawk]

There is only one record known to me, which made snowball effect about this issue, in hunting community, and created the entire myth.

Those are the records of proven court case for elephant poaching with some rifle in 22. But it is not clear which 22 actual caliber was used.

The records are available on this forum. Here is the article. 3 pages.
For me, this is a bed time story and fairy tale, I am not buying this, it is not entirely proven

Regarding killing an elephant with a .22, I think its entirely possible to do with a .22, but not with a .22LR RIMFIRE. While not condoning it, I was friendly acquaintences with an accomplished elephant hunter that wanted to "beat" WDM Bell's abilities (Bell used a 6.5MS) so the accomplished hunter brained an elephant with a 256 Newton. He stated it dropped dead instantly as was to be expected.

Could that same scenario be done with a .22 Hornet, .222 Rem, or .22 Savage using a FMJ bullet? Absolutely.

A .22LR would barely penetrate the skin and the .22LR was even more lethargic with even worse bullets 30-80 years ago than today. It couldn't be done with the very best 40gr .22 bullet of today, just not enough energy.

But from a 60gr solid from a .22 centerfire? Sure. Stupid to do, but it surely would have a success rate of reasonable numbers.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Okay, I finally have to comment not that my opinion is worth any more than anyone else’s. I am just a humble (hopefully) Africa Hunting ordinary type of guy member. I take @Hunter-Habib word that Mark Sullivan is a great guy. I would probably enjoy conversing with him so long as I didn’t have to spend much time trying to find a place to be that his ego wasn’t occupying. Frankly, his videos of stopping charges are impressive but they are also like Kim Kardashian with a set of balls the size of basketballs showing off!


WTF ! I read this forum much more than I comment and @WAB is up there in my most respected members. If he says it happened, it happened.


@Scott CWO , a professional outfitter of many decades, I take his assessment of guiding and dangerous animals as a fact.

As teenagers many of us yet to gain wisdom did stupid things to prove our supposed manhood from pulling apart all the rings on a 6-pack or two 6-pack retainer plastics, drinking a case of beer by ourselves, drinking tequila until we could drink the worm out of the bottle, driving our cars at 116 mph, jumping dangerous obstacles on bicycles and motorcycles, getting into fights to show others we are the toughest or at least tough, and the list goes on.

Today, teenagers watch social media and join in on challenges like swallowing Tide pods (laundry detergent), ice bucket dumped on one’s head, and very dangerous stunts.
25 Outrageously Stupid Challenges https://list25.com/25-outrageously-stupid-internet-challenges/
List of Internet Challenges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_challenges

I admit that as an adult I was a risk taker, an adrenalin junkie. I pushed myself to the limit and it was stupid. Perhaps is was a devil may care attitude about life, or maybe I was searching for something more. But, wanting to provoke an Alaska Brown Bear take balls and a disregard for any wisdom one may have!


Now, suppose one’s retort to a snide remark about the size of a rifle’s bore a hunter uses were to question this PH’s intelligence? “How stupid do you have to be to provoke charges?” Having a big personality to sell oneself or products doesn’t make the PH a bigger or better man. It lessens him in my opinion. I relate this to combat veterans such as snipers with a lot of kills, Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, Silver Star awardees, and ordinary un-decorated combat soldiers, Marines, and others who never, ever talk let alone boast about the shxt they had to do. Never.

Also, some of our members have killed many, many plains and dangerous game with a .375 H&H. Clearly since they have more common sense than to provoke charges of dangerous game, the little "rat" gun is adaquate!

I’ve met a famous PH or two, gun writer, and others whose large personalities don’t impress me. Not when I looked, pierce deep into their eyes searching for meaningful qualities. Often, I didn’t discover anything. The humble champions, PH's, military heroes, and a lot of our AH members, who show sincere interest in others, gaze into their eyes and you will find much inside.

My opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. In fact, if you dispise it then you lost time reading it and time, time is something you can never replace...

@Mark A Ouellette

To be very fair (and I know that you are), Mark (Sullivan) is actually a very big proponent of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. You know… when he isn’t joking about it.

This is from Mark’s second book “Fear No Death”. I think that you will find it to be an insightful read.

For many years, he also used to own a beautiful .375 Holland & Holland Magnum custom piece which was built by Lon Paul on a pre ‘64 Winchester Model 70 action with a Douglas Premium barrel. Unfortunately, he had to recently sell that one in order to get the funds together for buying his three new double rifles (Cal Pappa’s .600 Nitro Express John Wilkes boxlock extractor, a .500 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Dominion back action sidelock ejector and a .577 Black Powder Express Holland & Holland Dominion back action sidelock ejector).

Your reasons for not wanting to hunt with Mark (Sullivan) are actually pretty fair and understandable.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Regarding killing an elephant with a .22, I think its entirely possible to do with a .22, but not with a .22LR RIMFIRE. While not condoning it, I was friendly acquaintences with an accomplished elephant hunter that wanted to "beat" WDM Bell's abilities (Bell used a 6.5MS) so the accomplished hunter brained an elephant with a 256 Newton. He stated it dropped dead instantly as was to be expected.

Could that same scenario be done with a .22 Hornet, .222 Rem, or .22 Savage using a FMJ bullet? Absolutely.

A .22LR would barely penetrate the skin and the .22LR was even more lethargic with even worse bullets 30-80 years ago than today. It couldn't be done with the very best 40gr .22 bullet of today, just not enough energy.

But from a 60gr solid from a .22 centerfire? Sure. Stupid to do, but it surely would have a success rate of reasonable numbers.

This is entirely feasable. Killed an elephant with a .22 means a .22 long rifle to most and thus the story. I believe Bell used a .220 Swift for some of his Africa hunting. Did he write about ever killing an elephant with it? I don't remember.

A poacher seems more like to have a .22 LR than a .220 Swift. A .22 Hornet, maybe...

 

[DieJager]

Maybe this is a language barrier or writing styles but YOU seem to be confronting me.

I don't know Ron Thompson nor have I read his book. He may have made 800 clean kills. Perhaps there were some, especially when he started that were not so clean? If one want's to sell books and magazine articles, some bad laundry is not included.

The information on a poached shooting between the ribs of an elephant is out there. There is also the story of a British gentelmen having shot an elephant through the earhole and killed it. In both cases as these stories go, first the magistrate didn't believe the poacher when caught with a .22 and elephant parts, didn't have a larger illegal caliber rifle. He made the poacher show the court it was possible. A shot between the ribs and in a few hours the elephant bled to death internally. Second the gentleman was challanged at a party that his story wasn't true so on a bet, he proved his story.

I can't verify these stories but I believe them a the 95 % level. Almost anything is possible.
If you have to confront me, so be it. I will produce verification for you at my labor rate billable in 15 minute increments, no matter how long it takes. I accept PayPal if you like

Otherwise, have a nice day and hit the Ignore key in my profile.

English is not my native tongue but I've reread my comments and I cannot see what lead to this confrontational behaviour. Just trying to have a civilized discussion.

Not going to ignore you. I'll think you have interesting and contributing opinions on this forum. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

@Mark A Ouellette

To be very fair (and I know that you are), Mark (Sullivan) is actually a very big proponent of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. You know… when he isn’t joking about it.

This is from Mark’s second book “Fear No Death”. I think that you will find it to be an insightful read.
View attachment 692215View attachment 692216View attachment 692217
For many years, he also used to own a beautiful .375 Holland & Holland Magnum custom piece which was built by Lon Paul on a pre ‘64 Winchester Model 70 action with a Douglas Premium barrel. Unfortunately, he had to recently sell that one in order to get the fund together for buying his three new double rifles (Cal Pappa’s .600 Nitro Express John Wilkes boxlock extractor, a .500 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Dominion back action sidelock ejector and a .577 Black Powder Express Holland & Holland Dominion sidelock ejector).

Your reasons for not wanting to hunt with Mark (Sullivan) are actually pretty fair and understandable.

Thanks, this is interesting.

The 375 Flanged Magnum at 2250 fps wth 300 gr bullet produces 3373 ft lbs of energy.
The 375 H&H Magnum at 2500 fps with a 300 gr bullet produces 4164 ft lbs energy.

For the above comparison loads, the flanges has 81% of the muzzle energy of the belted magnum.
Clearly, cartridge for cartridge, the belted magum is more capable if shot placement is the same.

Nothing wrong with a good marksman threading the needle with a 375 H&H Magnum!

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Okay, I like you also.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

This is entirely feasable. Killed an elephant with a .22 means a .22 long rifle and thus the story. I believe Bell used a .220 Swift for some of his Africa hunting.

A poacher seems more like to have a .22 LR than a .220 Swift. A .22 Hornet, maybe...

I’m sure I’m going off topic, but the history buff in me wanted to lend an insight.

WDM Bell did own two centerfire .22 caliber rifles. One was a a .22 Hi-Power built by John Rigby & Co. on a Mauser action (the only one in the entire world, to the best of my knowledge). The other was a pre-64 Winchester Model 70 chambered in ,220 Swift. But he bought both long after he had already retured from Africa (where he last hunted in 1924). Both these rifles were actually used for his red deer stalking purposes in the Scottish estates.

Now, Bell did have some secondhand experience with the .22 Hi Power in Africa. He saw a fellow hunter (armed with a .22 Hi Power Savage Model 99 loaded with the 71Gr Winchester Super X soft point) take down an entire herd of 23 West African forest buffalo by employing 27 lung shots. When the wounded forest buffaloes started coughing blood, the sight & smell of blood drove the other members of the herd completely insane. They started goring each other to death, while simultaneously getting weakened by blood loss & suffocation from the shot out lungs. Now, I’m not completely certain but if I had to guess… this hunter was probably a former American bison hunter. Not only because of the choice of rifle, but because American bison hunters employed this cruel but highly efficient trick in the 1870s in order to take down entire herds of American bison for their tongues.

 

[HankBuck]

There is only one record known to me, which made snowball effect about this issue, in hunting community, and created the entire myth.

Those are the records of proven court case for elephant poaching with some rifle in 22. But it is not clear which 22 actual caliber was used.

The records are available on this forum. Here is the article. 3 pages.
For me, this is a bed time story and fairy tale, I am not buying this, it is not entirely proven

@Mark-hunter— thanks for providing some written accounts of this Elephant w/.22LR ——. I Agree with You because from what I can see there has been No documentation or verification of any Elephant ever being killed with a .22LR —-so it remains a “story or tall tale”

 

[HankBuck]

Regarding killing an elephant with a .22, I think its entirely possible to do with a .22, but not with a .22LR RIMFIRE. While not condoning it, I was friendly acquaintences with an accomplished elephant hunter that wanted to "beat" WDM Bell's abilities (Bell used a 6.5MS) so the accomplished hunter brained an elephant with a 256 Newton. He stated it dropped dead instantly as was to be expected.

Could that same scenario be done with a .22 Hornet, .222 Rem, or .22 Savage using a FMJ bullet? Absolutely.

A .22LR would barely penetrate the skin and the .22LR was even more lethargic with even worse bullets 30-80 years ago than today. It couldn't be done with the very best 40gr .22 bullet of today, just not enough energy.

But from a 60gr solid from a .22 centerfire? Sure. Stupid to do, but it surely would have a success rate of reasonable numbers.

@rookhawk - I think you nailed it - No Way with a .22LR and I believe that was the caliber this debate was all about….NOT .223, or .22 Hornet etc..

 

[Russ16]

In the mid 1990s there was an article about killing an elephant with a .22 or in either fins and ammo or Shootng Times or Peterens Hunting. That one claimed an ear canal shot at 5 yards or some super short range home that. I didn’t really believe it at the time.

 

[hwr239]

What can I say except I am an optimist. Life’s too short for me to think any other way. Maybe a little naive, but my previous career tested my resolve on many different levels and I somehow still remain optimistic. Shouldn’t be but I am.

Optimism is healthy for the soul!

 

[hwr239]

I wouldn’t mind hiring him for some lessons and critique on shooting a double rifle better

Few can shoot one better.

 

[CZDiesel]

The responses to my post have been insightful to me, both in a good and not so good way as Mark is a friend and I’d hope that this Expose’ would iron out some of the wrinkles that some who don’t know him have…
So let me leave you with this and I’d hope in this community it’s taken to heart! It comes from another controversial person who I hold in high esteem…

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Theodore Roosevelt

 

[HankBuck]

The responses to my post have been insightful to me, both in a good and not so good way as Mark is a friend and I’d hope that this Expose’ would iron out some of the wrinkles that some who don’t know him have…
So let me leave you with this and I’d hope in this community it’s taken to heart! It comes from another controversial person who I hold in high esteem…


Theodore Roosevelt

@CZDiesel - Before this ‘thread’ I had enjoyed some of Mark Sullivan’s videos and admired his exceptional ability with a Double Rifle - making good shots “under pressure”. I only met him once, briefly, and enjoyed his company during that hour.
I have much enjoyed reading this thread and especially hearing from others that actually know him or are friends with him - All sharing positive opinions of him.
He seems like a person that I would enjoy getting to know better and almost certainly would be a Fun Guy to have in Camp !!

 

[275r7x57]

I have never met Mark in person, but have spoken with him on the phone a few times as well as emailing back and forth.

Our first conversation on the phone was an hour or so long and spoke about anything and everything. Have greatly enjoyed our conversations and communications.

I personally have no issues with the man or his hunting. If given the opportunity I would not hesitate to be his client.

I by far have more issues with someone hunting dangerous game with a bow and arrow, than Mark with a double.

 

[BJH65]

I have found the commentary on this thread about Mark Sullivan interesting, including those who’ve had direct interactions with him whether they came away with a positive or negative impression. There are far more positive impressions of the man from what I’ve read about him over the years than negative.

From the moment he released his first video on VHS, “Black Death,” he’s been somewhat of a controversial figure. Regardless of how one may feel about him and his contributions to African hunting, he has demonstrated superior skill with his double rifles and cool resolve while facing DG on his videos and that trait alone has earned him the respect and admiration of many plus he’s been a unique character among Africa PH’s over the years.

Overall, has he been a positive influence for Africa hunting over the years in spite of his style of hunting as depicted and marketed on his videos and strong outgoing personality?

IMO, I think so. It highlighted the thrill of going after and testing one’s mettle against one of Africa’s most dangerous animals, the Cape Buffalo.

When someone’s placed under a microscope, all the good and bad is going to come out. Giving a wounded buffalo, filled with hate towards it’s human tormentor on last chance to rise and obtain retribution has and will always be controversial.

What if you have a misfire? What if the firing pin is broken? Many have very strong opinions on this not to mention prolonging the death of an animal. The vast majority of PH’s and hunters won’t hunt this way and honestly, that’s a good thing, but it’s why this thread exists.

 

[fourfive8]

Salesmen are generally very personable.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Salesmen are generally very personable.

Funny hahaha

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Can an animal hate? Weird thought. Humanization of animals is odd whether it’s Disney or MS. Capstick did the same but he wasn’t a d bag. Either way it’s straight up unethical to not put an end to an animal’s suffering post haste. Also, are hunters “tormentors” of the animals they hunt? I don’t think so… Now is MS a tormentor? Seems like it. Is that being a good ambassador for hunting? Most definitely not