Gun control???

gizmo

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Specifically on the topic of armed teachers and in response to Scott’s belief they shouldn’t be armed, I believe the school has the right to arm teachers if they do choose.
I’m going to preface my statement by saying I was a full time policeman for 15 years across 3 different departments in two states. I’m not saying this because I think that makes me cool but because I believe I do have an educated opinion on the matter and have had first hand experience with the issue and armed citizens.
I believe that schools should have the right to arm teachers if they so choose. Many schools across the nation have staff that are police or military veterans therefore many have had adequate firearms training. At that point these teachers can train with local law enforcement ( we have been doing this in our community I.e. cooperative training between schools and law enforcement for years to much success).
Now I am opposed to forcing teachers to be armed as that could do more harm than good in that not everyone has the capacity to kill even in the worst situations. Killing someone is not a decision to be taken lightly and only those who have the capacity for violence are able to do so.
As far as the statement of teachers being there to educate not kill well, all I can say is one also has the duty to protect those students and the crazy person on the other end of the gun could care less if a teacher is kind hearted or not. If the worst happens you will die with those additional helpless children. If your good with that so be it. I personally would not be but that is my choice.
If I’m not mistaken a school shooting occurred in Israel back in either the 70’s or 80’s. After that the decision was made to arm all teachers and there hasn’t been one since.
Additionally nothing is going to change until you change society. Our society has produced a couple of generations now of children who have no accountabity for their actions, charged up on violent video games and movies, with parents that are grossly detached and uninvolved our their children’s lives. Cultural accountability is gone, kids don’t even know what damned gender they are anymore and the left in this country have turned the education system into a socialist training camp. Until all of this is corrected this is going to continue to get worse. Ban guns? They’ll sneak in knives and homemade bombs. If someone is intent on killing and the availability of one tool is taken away another is found, Every time. The battle is won in the hearts and minds of the children and parents but no one wants to be accountable for that. Everyone wants to point fingers at each other and inanimate objects and place the blame there. It often helps if people look in their own back yard first but that of course requires effort. Effort is something very very few people actually want to have to do and they sure as hell don’t want to take a hard look on the mirror and accept that the responsibility lies with each of them.
 
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Hogpatrol

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Very well stated Erik.
 

gizmo

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gizmo

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MMAL

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Scott.


I will repeat a very simple question?


If you do not arm teachers. What is your answer to preventing the awful things that are occurring in our schools?

Banning weapons in society has shown not to work. What is your answer. Smart guy?
 

mdwest

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Because a teacher's job is to TEACH students NOT SHOOT them!

So a teacher should be trusted with our children’s mind, but can’t be trusted to safely control a weapon and not shoot our children?
 

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I don't think teachers should be forced to carry but I think they should be given the option. As it now they are sitting ducks in a gun free zone where a bad guy with a gun is the only one with a gun. Just not advertising that it is a gun free zone would be enough to cause doubt.

Also, let's think about the standard procedures as of now, lock the door, turn off the lights and be very quiet. So they wait for the bad guy to get fustrated, satisfied or kill himself. Now let's add a teacher with gun, they lock the door, turn off the lights and wait for the bad person to come through the door. It might not stop a shooting but it would greatly minimize the loss of life. At Virginia Tech, the teacher held the door so kids could jump out the window. Imagine if they had a firearm instead.

This gun free zone stuff isn't working.
 

mdwest

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The answers to why arning teachers is a TERRIBLE idea have been shared here and many places. I won’t go into ALL of the reasons, but I can share some highlights off the top of my head:


  1. There is VERY good dtata (I too am on a phone and heve limited access, so I can’t provide the links...just do a google search of police shooting statistics) that shows that HIGHLY-TRAINED police offices (and military) perform HORRIBLY when called upon to shoot (from memory less than 20 % hit rate). And that data ONLY addresses the proficiency when they shoot...it does not take into account when they freeze up and do not engage.

  2. People typically do not accidently become police officers. They intentioanlly decide to put thier lives on the line to protect others...to carry a gun...and to take a life if called upon. I do not know a single officer who does not take that responsibility lightly. They work long hours that include systematic and specialized training in how to use their weapon, when to use their weapon…. And VERY importatnly when NOT to use their weapon. Thier supivisors and support staff have experience in the same job and have specialized training in supporting and managing the job. Police are VERY special people and are to be celebrated.

  3. People typically do not accidently become teachers. They intentioanlly decide to put students first...focusing on student learning, social development, moral development, etc.They work long hours that include systemtiac and specialized training in how students learn, classroom management, technology, etc. I seldomed worked less than 60 hours a week but found time to earn 4 additional degrees after becoming a teacher...simply in search of being the best teacher that I could be. My story is not unique. Teachers are VERY special people and are to be celebrated.

  4. Police and teachers are VERY different public servants who have dedicated their lives to searving others….in VERY different ways.

  5. NO ONE should be allowed to carry a weapon on campus without equivalent or better initial and continuing training than police officers (which will get them to the 20 % hit rate, which stll leaves 80% of the bullets bouncing around the school). Additionally, they need to have supervisors and support staff that understand the implications to carry a weapon and being prepared to take the life of another human being. It is a VERY rare teacher who is committed to adding the training...and an even MORE rare administrator who is capable and willing to add the supervision responsibility to their jobs.


I know that people will be able to come up with anectdotal examples of teachers who WANT to carry a gun to school and whom they think would be able. That is all good on a discussion board… but I am talking REAL policy and the polcy MUST be directed to the whole...not the exceptions. My experience in working with schools in rural Texas and Georgia, and urban Texas that teachers ...on average....are not dispositionally suited to carry guns and schools are WAY to chaotic to intentionally add guns to the matrix.

What does any of this have to do with the 2nd amendment?

Again, teachers can be trusted with our children’s minds, but can’t be trusted to seek out reasonable training and behave responsibly with a weapon?

It’s ok for a school to employ a school resource officer (an on campus cop), and universities to have police officers.. and introduce weapons into the exact same environment that teachers shouldn’t carry in?

For what it’s worth cops DONT receive as much firearms training as you think unless they get involved in very specialized units.. it’s not uncommon for “joe civilian” that takes ccw seriously to have as much or more training with firearms than the average middle America patrol cop..
 

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Scott.


I will repeat a very simple question?


If you do not arm teachers. What is your answer to preventing the awful things that are occurring in our schools?

Banning weapons in society has shown not to work. What is your answer. Smart guy?
1. Gun bans are effective at reducing deaths in schools....that is a simple fact. You don't like that...but it is a fact.
2. I do not support the NRA position that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
3. The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to keep the bad guy from getting a gun...so....ideas you may not like...but I believe would work.
A. National registration of all guns
B. Close ALL background check loopholes (especially gun shows, person to person)
C. Lengthen the wait time for a legal gun
D. Make possessing an unregistered gun a crime.
E. Punish possession of an unregistered gun...no exceptions.
 

Scott Slough

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What does any of this have to do with the 2nd amendment?

Again, teachers can be trusted with our children’s minds, but can’t be trusted to seek out reasonable training and behave responsibly with a weapon?

It’s ok for a school to employ a school resource officer (an on campus cop), and universities to have police officers.. and introduce weapons into the exact same environment that teachers shouldn’t carry in?

For what it’s worth cops DONT receive as much firearms training as you think unless they get involved in very specialized units.. it’s not uncommon for “joe civilian” that takes ccw seriously to have as much or more training with firearms than the average middle America patrol cop..
Who said anything about the 2nd Amendment? I was asked a question about teachers and schools.
 

mdwest

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1. Gun bans are effective at reducing deaths in schools....that is a simple fact. You don't like that...but it is a fact.
.

Support that fact with some facts please.

Where has there been a gun ban that has proven to have reduced deaths in schools?

I’m not trying to be argumentative here. I seriously don’t know of any legitimate study that proves this.
 

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1. Gun bans are effective at reducing deaths in schools....that is a simple fact. You don't like that...but it is a fact.
2. I do not support the NRA position that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
3. The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to keep the bad guy from getting a gun...so....ideas you may not like...but I believe would work.
A. National registration of all guns
B. Close ALL background check loopholes (especially gun shows, person to person)
C. Lengthen the wait time for a legal gun
D. Make possessing an unregistered gun a crime.
E. Punish possession of an unregistered gun...no exceptions.

Your solution requires abolishing the 2nd amendment, That's why
Do you have any ACTUAL FACTS to support your position that a gun ban will reduce deaths in schools?
 

LivingTheDream

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Scott,

I know we disagree but you are wrong on number 1. There is way too much data on that one, how many schools have banned guns, Chicago, DC, Baltimore have the most restrictive gun laws and yet super high gun deaths.

National Registration is a means for confiscation, as a point of failure how did the FBI do with Parkland.

Many of these shooters have passed background checks so not sure what good that would do.

Also how would a wait time help? There is zero information that it would prevent anything.

Instead of making it illegal to own an unregistered firearm...we should ban mass murder, make it illegal and punishable by death. I think if we made it illegal then people wouldn't do it and it would work.
 

gizmo

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1. Gun bans are effective at reducing deaths in schools....that is a simple fact. You don't like that...but it is a fact.
2. I do not support the NRA position that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
3. The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to keep the bad guy from getting a gun...so....ideas you may not like...but I believe would work.
A. National registration of all guns
B. Close ALL background check loopholes (especially gun shows, person to person)
C. Lengthen the wait time for a legal gun
D. Make possessing an unregistered gun a crime.
E. Punish possession of an unregistered gun...no exceptions.
Gun bans are Not effective. That is false and has been proven by the FBI statistics not to mention the crime rates in Detroit, Chicago, NY, LA, England or anywhere else. Registration, waiting periods, etc does nothing and you are only punishing law abiding citizens. That was proven during the Brady bill.
Crazy people will kill whether they have a gun or not.
THE ONLY WAY to fix this is fix the underlying societal issues. Enforce the laws on the books and fix the broken mental health system. New laws do NOTHING. IT IS ILLEGAL to murder someone, it is illegal to bring a firearm in weapons free zones such as schools yet NONE of these laws have stopped anything.
A teenager can easily get on the internet and see how to make bombs out of common items found at Walmart. The effects of which can be much more devastating than a gun could ever be. Very little of these items are regulated in anyway.
Regulate those then what? They will drive cars through buildings. Are you going to outlaw cars too? Look what’s going on in London with knives, can’t practically own a gun there yet people are dying by the droves.
It’s easy to blame a tool, it’s much harder to accept fact and deal with reality.
 

Hogpatrol

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S.S., Talking points of the alt-left and as such must be branded as a left wing troll. Time to dump this thread and ban this member as anti-gun and by extension, anti-hunting, closet PETA sympathizer. Photos and info are now suspected fake.
 

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So a teacher should be trusted with our children’s mind, but can’t be trusted to safely control a weapon and not shoot our children?
Let me put it another way, I would not want someone who was not emotionally stable enough to be trusted with a firearm around my nephews.
 

Scott Slough

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Gun bans are Not effective. That is false and has been proven by the FBI statistics not to mention the crime rates in Detroit, Chicago, NY, LA, England or anywhere else. Registration, waiting periods, etc does nothing and you are only punishing law abiding citizens. That was proven during the Brady bill.
Crazy people will kill whether they have a gun or not.
THE ONLY WAY to fix this is fix the underlying societal issues. Enforce the laws on the books and fix the broken mental health system. New laws do NOTHING. IT IS ILLEGAL to murder someone, it is illegal to bring a firearm in weapons free zones such as schools yet NONE of these laws have stopped anything.
A teenager can easily get on the internet and see how to make bombs out of common items found at Walmart. The effects of which can be much more devastating than a gun could ever be. Very little of these items are regulated in anyway.
Regulate those then what? They will drive cars through buildings. Are you going to outlaw cars too? Look what’s going on in London with knives, can’t practically own a gun there yet people are dying by the droves.
It’s easy to blame a tool, it’s much harder to accept fact and deal with reality.
I agree 1 million percent with the fix society statement....I originally wrote the same thing and removed it at the risk of being condecending.

I would disagree with your assessment of the ban data...but respect that you are making an informed dissent.
 

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