General opinion on .416 Taylor?

[Bos Javanicus]

The .416 Taylor is a cracking round and it very nearly matches the balistics of the Rigby and Rem Mag. According to the Woodleigh reloading manual it's a max of 85 fps to the Rigby and 50 fps to the Rem Mag and this means SFA at the end of the day and any animal you hit ain't going to be able to tell the difference. One of the advantages of the .416 Taylor is the ability for it to be built on a standard length Mauser action with minimal modifications and utilising a short bolt throw. .458 Win Mag brass can be found just about anywhere. There is also a huge selection of projectiles out there as well. The .416 Taylor is an underrated round and can literally handle any animal that walks.

 

[Sofa hunter]

Loaded to the same pressure the Rigby "wins" but whats the max pressure in Rigby V.S Taylor? According to SAMI the Rigby have 52000 PSI and the Taylor 65000 PSI. And in the Rigby that gives you 2370 fps with a 400gr bullet, strangely enough 65000PSI in the Taylor gives you 2370 fps with a 400gr bullet. This is in a 20" test barrel. So in a shorter action length and with a 20" barrel the rifle sounds a bit nicer to walk around with compared to the "normal" dimension .416 Rigby usually comes in.
But hey, both of them will take down even an elefant so you have plenty of power to kill a beast or 2. And as mentioned by Bos Javanicus what difference gives 80 fps you? how manny percent is 80 out of 2400?

 

[Bos Javanicus]

Sofa, it's not a competition about what cartridge is best, and it's not about pressures, velocity or anything like that. It's about shooting and hunting, if you want to split hairs about less than 100fps I'll leave you with it. Nothing you shoot with a Rigby, Rem Mag or Taylor is going to be able to tell the difference.

 

[Sofa hunter]

Bos Javanicus, I might didn't make may point clear. We are hawing the same opinion, only one level of being dead and thats dead. So the few fps extra isn't giving that big difference. The first of my post was to Sestoppleman because of him using the same loaded pressures to compare the 2 against each other when they are having a big difference in max pressure.
My opinion is that the Taylor is as god or bad as the legendary Rigby. So i can't understand people saying that 416 Taylor isn't good enough. But the nostalgic right choice would be 416 Rigby but i would prefer the handiest gun for my hunt since I prefer walk and stalk from camp and not drive around. Have a nice hunt

 

[Bos Javanicus]

Yes we agree Sofa, and yes I cannot agree more with you and that I am also bemused when people say the Taylor is not good enough.

 

[sestoppelman]

I for one didn't say the Taylor wasn't "good enough", of course it is. My only point was to say to those who say its the same as the Rigby..well against game I would agree, no animal is going to know the difference. But loaded to max pressures the Rigby is somewhat more powerful. Remember the Rigby case is essentially the same case as the .416 Weatherby which is based on the .460 Weatherby, its huge. The Rigby was designed huge so as to give good ballistics at relatively low pressure. As loaded by factories its no better than the Taylor. You load it to the same pressure as the Taylor needs to give Rigby velocities and the Rigby will smoke the Taylor, just like the '06 will smoke the .308 Win. Loaded to max in the same rifle as the Taylor, Rigby wins on speed. Again I agree no animal is going to know the difference.

 

[Sofa hunter]

The 30-06 has a higher max pressure than the 308, it also have a bigger volume so you got that one right.
The good old Rigby have a bigger casing volume perfect for the gun powders available at that time, but 7000 PSI lower max pressure than the Taylor that can take advantage of faster powders and be loaded to pressures that would be far above the safe max load in a Rigby. The .416 Rigby would might be a grenade if loaded to 65000PSI. But if for some reason you loaded the Taylor down to Rigby pressure the Taylor would have a lower fps with the same bullet. So if they are loaded to both their max pressure and same bullet they are as close as you can come.

 

[sestoppelman]

The 30-06 has a higher max pressure than the 308, it also have a bigger volume so you got that one right.
The good old Rigby have a bigger casing volume perfect for the gun powders available at that time, but 7000 PSI lower max pressure than the Taylor that can take advantage of faster powders and be loaded to pressures that would be far above the safe max load in a Rigby. The .416 Rigby would might be a grenade if loaded to 65000PSI. But if for some reason you loaded the Taylor down to Rigby pressure the Taylor would have a lower fps with the same bullet. So if they are loaded to both their max pressure and same bullet they are as close as you can come.

I have no idea what you are talking about and apparently neither do you. Why would the Rigby be a grenade if loaded to the same pressure as the Taylor? Ridiculous! You need to look at it this way. The Rigby case is the same as the .460 Weatherby case without the belt. Same case. Now if you look at the specs of the .416 Weatherby you will see it drives a 400 gr bullet to over 2700 fps. Taylor wont be able to do that will it? Given platforms of equal strength and loaded to a given max pressure, there will be about a 200 fps difference between the Taylor and the Rigby. Look at the cases. The .416 Taylor is the .458 Win necked down. The .416 Rigby is essentially the .460 Weatherby case necked down. Think the .458 Win mag can equal the .460 Weatherby do you?? And the '06 does NOT have a higher max pressure than the .308, have no idea where you heard that whopper. Simply put as I explained earlier, a smaller case cannot equal a larger case when loaded to the same pressures, with the most suitable powder for each. The Rigby was loaded down historically as I said to keep pressures down but still produce good power. With modern powders in strong rifles its a fair bit more cartridge than the Taylor.

 

[Sofa hunter]

I made a mistake about the 308win maxP for some reason I looked at the one above on the list, 308 Marlin Express. The rest I'm going to stand for.
Please have a look at factory loads from the same make using the same bullets and I quite sure that they are working with in +- 50fps, is that only a for the hell of it or to work with in SAAMI standards? I could only find Doubletap ammo loading them both. Norma is also loading the Rigby with the 450gr bullet and same speed as Doubletap, they don't tell you how long the test barrel is so for all i know that's some of the difference. It's not only the casing that is affected by the pressure, it is only a seal so to speak backed up by the chamber and bolt. Witch standards are the rifle made to? The max pressure standards is a little more than guide line's. But hey please load up a few rounds 7000PSI above the red line and mount your rifle to a tree and se whats happening, only remember to stay on a safe distance. I don't want to se you get hurt. It is nothing personal from me, so please stay safe and hunt

 

[sestoppelman]

No one is talking about loading up something 7kPSI past the redline. The redline on the Rigby is the same as any other case when loaded in a proper platform with modern powders. Its really pretty simple, Its large vs smaller. If you take a 4 liter motor and a 6 liter motor and run them together, the 6 at 2/3 speed and the 4 at full speed, they are about equal right? Run the 6 motor to full speed and it runs away from the 4 motor right? Its the same thing here. You have the Rigby case which is much larger and able to hold a lot more powder than the Taylor case, all the while the Rigby as FACTORY loaded to ORIGINAL specs and it does the same thing as the Taylor round does at max pressure or near abouts. Now take the larger Rigby case, load it to its FULL potential with modern powders in a modern rifle and see what happens. You will stay within safe pressures and walk away from the Taylor. Its pretty simple.

I go back to the .416 Weatherby, the same basic case as the Rigby, really but for the belt on the Weatherby its the same case, in capacity and looks. The Weatherby can drive the 400 gr bullet to over 2700 fps, so can the Rigby. The Taylor cannot... Put a Rigby case next to a .458 Win case ( the Taylor parent round) and tell me one is as big as the other. You can stand by your assertions till the cows come home and you will still be wrong.

 

[8x68]

A fellow hunter uses a 416 Taylor. Likes it quite a bit. Took a whitetail deer with it at 225yds with no problem. As mentioned by other op's the Taylor can be loaded into 30/06 length actions. A couple of advantages the Rigby has is that it can handle heavier bullet weights according to my Woodleigh manual. Taylor maxes out at 400gr where as the Rigby maxes out at 450gr. Not a really huge difference in ballistics. A personal preference I guess.
I'd go with a 404 Jeffery myself. I have a 416 Rigby and 404 Jeffery. I find the 404 more pleasant to shoot. Both rounds hold MOA at 100yds so no need to worry about accuracy.
The main thing is to have fun with it and be comfortable with what you choose.

 

[Sofa hunter]

I think we can only agree to disagree unfortunately Sestoppelman. I will never go above SAAMI or CIP Pmax. But if you have the knowledge and equipment to do it safely why not? We can argue to the bitter end and still dont agree.

 

[sestoppelman]

Well facts are facts. Does Weatherby go above SAAMI or CIP to achieve its velocities in the basic Rigby case? Answer,,, no.

 

[Sofa hunter]

Ok. Lets have a look in the books again...
.416 WBM holds 140gr H2O and have Pmax 65KPSI
.416 Rigby holds 127.8gr H2O and have Pmax 52KPSI
12.2gr H2O difference and 7KPSI is this not quite different specs? I would almost think it was based on something else. Ok please have a look at the .378 Weatherby mag casing and look at this;
.378 WBM holds 140gr H2O and also have Pmax 65KPSI
This sounds quite familiar or what?
And then we can read;
"Weatherby introduced their own .416 cartridge in 1989, it was based on the .378 Weatherby Magnum cartridge, which was necked up to accept a .416 bullet."

 

[sestoppelman]

Splitting hairs here but my reference book shows the 140 gr water for the Weatherby and 132 grs for the Rigby for a whopping 8 gr difference which in a case this size is basically inconsequential. A difference in brass make can make nearly that much difference in internal capacity. As to the stated pressure differences, so what? Those are numbers assigned to each cartridge and the numbers vary from round to round basically depending on their age. As the Rigby has been around for a lot longer than the Weatherby or the Taylor it will show a lower number and you have to remember its original intent; a powerful round working at relatively low pressure. When loaded originally it was probably loaded in the 45K range. The point of all of this that if you are going to stick to printed max pressures from the good old days, compare them to the max pressures of today for modern versions of these rounds, then sure I get your point. But for all intents and purposes the Rigby and the Weatherby are the same round if loaded to the same pressures which the Rigby can safely do. It could depending on many factors either equal, exceed or come up short load for load against the Rigby, it all depends.. But this all started out as the Taylor vs the Rigby to which you must concede, there is a major difference between these two. Max loadings for the Taylor will usually be around 2450 fps or so, while the Rigby can easily reach over 2600 fps for the same bullet. Another case in point would be the old .404 Jeffery. Original specs called for its 400 gr bullet at around 2100 fps, today even as loaded in some factory ammo it exceeds 2400 fps no problem and its a smaller case than the Rigby. Another really good example is the 7x57 Mauser round. As loaded originally it was somewhat anemic by todays standards, but when loaded in modern rifles to modern pressures it becomes a less antiquated looking round. BTW, yes the .416 Weatherby was based on the .378, which was based on....wait for it.....the .416 Rigby! At any rate I think the horse has been beat to death on this. I see the potential of these old rounds, you prefer to see them as they always were, based on original pressures of 100 years ago. So be it.

 

[Edward Wright]

The loading manual "Any Shot You Want" by Art Alpin is a gold mine of big caliber/obscure DG guns, and shows loads with the 416 Taylor. AA also lists pressures on each caliber as well, too bad he went into bankruptcy, he was a great BG rifle fan.