Composite cartridges

Kevin Peacocke

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What do our AH experts think of the new composite cartridges by Tru Velocity?
their claim is that they use about 10% less powder to get the same ballistics. The comparative video clip shows the 308 with composite recoiling less than the brass firing one. I thought the recoil only came from the action-reaction relationship of the bullet and rifle? Mind you, the felt recoil formula includes powder weight too.
 

mark-hunter

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I think, few years ago was the first attempt to sell this concept to the army, by some other factory, and it did not pass.
i wonder why then, but ok, lets give them the credit now, that new casing is improved by now.

The factory claims following calibers available:
Calibers 50 BMG, 338 norma mag, 7.62 nato, and 308 win, 6.8 tvcm, 6.5 CM, 5.56 nato.
My comment; poor choice of hunting or sport shooting calibers.

Lets see next:

30% lighter cartiridge - for army this is intersting, for hunter this is irrelevant.

Increased accuracy - questionable, and based on what?
modern rifles are more accurate then older rifles (more and more rifles are delivered with 1 moa or less, accuracy guaranty), and every ammunition brand can claim improved accuracy today. The real proof of improved accuracy will be if this ammo is used on national and international shooting matches. (lets wait and see, but I am sceptical on top accuracy quality)

reduced heat transfer.
Ok, I will buy that, but:
for hunting this is irrelavant. but it may be intersting for army (automatic weapons), and it may be intersting for long range shooters with high level of fire at match, but if it is not accompanied with top accuracy for sportsmen and target shoter, then it is absolutely irrelelvant.

Magnetic retrival?
This I have no idea what it means. So far I never had a need for it. I doubt I will need this quality soon. But who knows.

100% recicleble.
Nice to know.
But I would prefer casing to be RELOADABLE. On their web site i did not see they mentioned that casing can be reloaded. Recycle, is nice. But for reloaders and high volume shooters at this moment I think this is usless.

Bottom line:
For hunters, not interesting at first glimpse,
For target shooters, same.
Might be interesting for army, (if it is weather and water resistant) because of lighter weight, which can improve fire power of combat unit on the ground. But thats it.
 

Kevin Peacocke

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I think, few years ago was the first attempt to sell this concept to the army, by some other factory, and it did not pass.
i wonder why then, but ok, lets give them the credit now, that new casing is improved by now.

The factory claims following calibers available:
Calibers 50 BMG, 338 norma mag, 7.62 nato, and 308 win, 6.8 tvcm, 6.5 CM, 5.56 nato.
My comment; poor choice of hunting or sport shooting calibers.

Lets see next:

30% lighter cartiridge - for army this is intersting, for hunter this is irrelevant.

Increased accuracy - questionable, and based on what?
modern rifles are more accurate then older rifles (more and more rifles are delivered with 1 moa or less, accuracy guaranty), and every ammunition brand can claim improved accuracy today. The real proof of improved accuracy will be if this ammo is used on national and international shooting matches. (lets wait and see, but I am sceptical on top accuracy quality)

reduced heat transfer.
Ok, I will buy that, but:
for hunting this is irrelavant. but it may be intersting for army (automatic weapons), and it may be intersting for long range shooters with high level of fire at match, but if it is not accompanied with top accuracy for sportsmen and target shoter, then it is absolutely irrelelvant.

Magnetic retrival?
This I have no idea what it means. So far I never had a need for it. I doubt I will need this quality soon. But who knows.

100% recicleble.
Nice to know.
But I would prefer casing to be RELOADABLE. On their web site i did not see they mentioned that casing can be reloaded. Recycle, is nice. But for reloaders and high volume shooters at this moment I think this is usless.

Bottom line:
For hunters, not interesting at first glimpse,
For target shooters, same.
Might be interesting for army, (if it is weather and water resistant) because of lighter weight, which can improve fire power of combat unit on the ground. But thats it.
Thanks for the good objective analysis Mark. I am guessing the magnetic bit comes from the base being steel?
But what of the recoil being different? That is my interpretation from their videos, not their claim?
 

mark-hunter

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But what of the recoil being different?
For automatic weapons, this is important. (army)
But for 308 win and less, how much is it important for civilian users?
For 338 and 50, good. (but again, mostly for the army)

As a technology that brings down recoil, certainly it has pottential.
Many things military found their way to civilian use and market. Maybe this will too, in the future. but I dont see it happening now.

I must say, I may be wrong. I did not see the need for smartphone at the time, as well, but now I think it is very much useful thing.
 

GuttormG

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Kevin Peacocke

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For automatic weapons, this is important. (army)
But for 308 win and less, how much is it important for civilian users?
For 338 and 50, good. (but again, mostly for the army)

As a technology that brings down recoil, certainly it has pottential.
Many things military found their way to civilian use and market. Maybe this will too, in the future. but I dont see it happening now.

I must say, I may be wrong. I did not see the need for smartphone at the time, as well, but now I think it is very much useful thing.
My tablet computer broke, so I am now using my iphone for everything. I may not even replace the computer at all.
 

mark-hunter

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I have to make some seminars, and other reports, powerpoint presentations, etc and for me laptop is needed, big screen and user friendly.
For daily communication, and informations on the go, smart phone is perfect tool.
 

BeeMaa

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The benefits for government militaries are there and currently True Velocity has a cartridge in the final phase of the US Army testing.

For the average hunter who shoot less than 100 rifle cartridges a year...not so much an advantage. Now I must say that most AH member that I know far exceed the 100 cartridges a year, making us "above average", however most of those same AH members also reload...negating any clear advantage they may have gained.

IMO - it is a good probability the military will adopt some form of this in the next few years. For hunters that don't reload, most will be unwilling to try anything new and resist any change to the current market. Just look at what some think of synthetic stocks, stainless rifles or (God forbid) I bring up the use of a push-feed rifle. No, I'd say most would not accept a composite cartridge as a welcome change.
 

Tra3

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My understanding is they can run significantly higher pressure in the same size case. I suppose increased accuracy might just mean less bullet drop at longer ranges due to a faster round. I don’t see a need for it for hunting purposes, but if the design becomes mainstream like the 6.5 CM, many of us will end up with one. “I’ll never buy another rifle” said no one on the forum. (Almost as convincing as “just one french fry…”)
 

Pheroze

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Brass is, like, my favourite part.
 

Bob Nelson 35Whelen

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I think, few years ago was the first attempt to sell this concept to the army, by some other factory, and it did not pass.
i wonder why then, but ok, lets give them the credit now, that new casing is improved by now.

The factory claims following calibers available:
Calibers 50 BMG, 338 norma mag, 7.62 nato, and 308 win, 6.8 tvcm, 6.5 CM, 5.56 nato.
My comment; poor choice of hunting or sport shooting calibers.

Lets see next:

30% lighter cartiridge - for army this is intersting, for hunter this is irrelevant.

Increased accuracy - questionable, and based on what?
modern rifles are more accurate then older rifles (more and more rifles are delivered with 1 moa or less, accuracy guaranty), and every ammunition brand can claim improved accuracy today. The real proof of improved accuracy will be if this ammo is used on national and international shooting matches. (lets wait and see, but I am sceptical on top accuracy quality)

reduced heat transfer.
Ok, I will buy that, but:
for hunting this is irrelavant. but it may be intersting for army (automatic weapons), and it may be intersting for long range shooters with high level of fire at match, but if it is not accompanied with top accuracy for sportsmen and target shoter, then it is absolutely irrelelvant.

Magnetic retrival?
This I have no idea what it means. So far I never had a need for it. I doubt I will need this quality soon. But who knows.

100% recicleble.
Nice to know.
But I would prefer casing to be RELOADABLE. On their web site i did not see they mentioned that casing can be reloaded. Recycle, is nice. But for reloaders and high volume shooters at this moment I think this is usless.

Bottom line:
For hunters, not interesting at first glimpse,
For target shooters, same.
Might be interesting for army, (if it is weather and water resistant) because of lighter weight, which can improve fire power of combat unit on the ground. But thats it.
@Mark- Hunter
David Dardick did indeed invent a plastic cartridge for use in his revolutionary revolver. It was c as led a TROUND because of its triangular shaped case. The case could be used as a loaded tround or a plastic hull was available so you could insert various cartridges in it so the weapon could still be used eg 22lr and 38 special could be used.
He also developed a tround for machine-gun use as more trounds could be loaded into a smaller mag.
Problems arose with feeding issues and alignment with the barrel that the idea was scrapped.
This was in 1958.
Bob
 

mark-hunter

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@Bob Nelson 35Whelen
Thank Bob, this I did not know.
What I knew is that not much is invented after ww2, and the attempts in varius alternative ammunition solution developments have mostly failed for various reasons - but generally for the reasons of impracticallity. (compositite casing, or caseless ammo)
For this new attempt, we will see how will it go.
 

calling4life

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It's getting so that that isn't a joke in the least anymore.

Californians are fine with a lead ban because they have their Barnes TSX, meanwhile California and Washington are already attacking copper and have laws banning it in certain uses.

What are they going to do when that spreads? And when this spreads to the rest of us?

People have all but knuckled under on the lead issue, meanwhile most don't realize that about everything in the right amount will kill you, including normal table salt. You could justify getting rid of about everything...

Little quote on what's happening with copper:
"The issue has been under consideration since the 1990s, when cities south of San Francisco were having trouble meeting Clean Water Act requirements to reduce copper in urban run-off flowing into San Francisco Bay. Preliminary studies indicated that brake pads were a significant source of copper in that runoff. Tiny amounts of copper fall onto the streets and parking lots every time drivers step on their brakes."

Tell me, reading that, how good do you feel "giving an inch."

Or are we going to believe it'll stop at brake pads... apparently it's destroying water quality, you like clean water don't you... we need to stop the use of copper in ammunition... we already took it out of our brake pads, the public has already acknowledged the danger, we need to protect our citizens and expand the reach of the copper ban to include...

It writes itself
 

JimP

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What about the copper pipes in all those houses?
We could come full circle back to lead pipe!
New homes are being plumbed with Plex, a flexible plastic pipe.
 

Bert the Turtle

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What do our AH experts think of the new composite cartridges by Tru Velocity?
their claim is that they use about 10% less powder to get the same ballistics. The comparative video clip shows the 308 with composite recoiling less than the brass firing one. I thought the recoil only came from the action-reaction relationship of the bullet and rifle? Mind you, the felt recoil formula includes powder weight too.
Actual recoil (not just felt) includes powder weight. It isn’t just the bullet being ejected, it is also the gas. The gas has mass just like the bullet does.
Why changing the case to plastic would result in needing 10% less powder I have no idea. Maybe some new and improved powder.
 

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