Aoudad Trophy or Scurge WSF podcast

[pilar]

I listened to it. I had no idea that the Aoudad in the trans pecos was at 100K population. That is unsustainable, particularly when they twin and have two litters a year. This is another wild hog problem. I know it's a nice hunt for some, but if those are the numbers, then I would agree, it's time for a large culling operation.

Personally, I would prefer the Aoudad not live in the same area as the Bighorn. Maybe some groups can compensate the landowners and remove them from the area. While, I don't have aoudad on my property and do have hogs and their population keeps exploding too. Unfortunately, too many folks selling hog hunts instead of trying to remove the problem.

I’m with you there on the zero aoudad where BHS are the focal point
But TP&W is majorly full of crap , the Chinati Mountains State Natural Area was area that they have had for 30+ years and every year excluded any type of public hunting on the drawing, first it was we are studying the subject, then we have a herd of BHS and hunters “ might accidentally shoot them “ , then access easement, ect , ect
Yet the fat cats on the committee used it as a private hunting preserve, 30 years of public hunting excluded ( and it’s still not open yet ) , we were just on the boundary of Chinati on mule mountain and every year the aoudad free roaming off increased exponentially , it’s probably now some of the best aoudad hunting in Texas and the outfitters have basically taken over all the surrounding property,
Since BHS are no longer on Chinati and the aoudad are now the main attraction I see zero reason why TP&W doesn’t open it up full speed with a public draw of 100-150 hunts per year with draws of 2-4 hunters per group ( Texas is starved for public land hunting anyway) . The people own the land and game on it but the stewards have denied access since it was bought!
It’s a very poorly managed WMA project imo , the ACS pays millions of dollars every year to the land owners who butt up to the state property for damages to their land
The hunting rights money is just gravy for them now
Research the Chinati and other public lands and see the mismanagement the TP&W and general land office has created
Rant over

 

[Flbt]

I might be the outlier but in my opinion but IMO if an exotic, non native species is competing with the wild sheep in terms of habitat and resources, or damaging the population due to disease then the state/federal government agencies charged with protection of our wild game need to step in and work the problem. This is an issue of conserving native North American Fauna vs a non native exotic species which could be considered by some as invasive. Ones ability to hunt wild sheep or one’s financial ability to do so is irrelevant, it’s about conservation of a species within their native habitat range.

To put this into a more African perspective, we’re talking about a total wild sheep population in North America (across the US, Mexico, and Canada) of roughly 85k individual animals. Thats less individual sheep than there are elephants in Botswana. I’d wager the number of sheep hunted in NA compared to Elephants in Botswana are fairly similar. Costs for a sheep hunt and an elephant hunt are also similar cost wise and not every hunter has the financial means to pursue a trophy bull. If Asian Elephants were introduced to Africa and competing against African Elephants and out performing them what would your stance be? How are NA Wild Sheep different than cattle or goats in Africa? Texas Landowners in this scenario are experiencing a unique human/wildlife conflict issue similar to African locals and landowners experience with Elephants, Rhinos, Lions, and Leopards.

I would say you are right that the government should manage the non native animal on government land.

But they have nothing to do with what’s on private property unless the land owner ask for there help.

 

[wesheltonj]

I would say you are right that the government should manage the non native animal on government land.

But they have nothing to do with what’s on private property unless the land owner ask for there help.

In Texas game animals are owned by the state, not the landowner.

 

[Flbt]

In Texas game animals are owned by the state, not the landowner.

So introduce animals ( invasive) are still owned by the state and not the landowner?

 

[pilar]

So introduce animals ( invasive) are still owned by the state and not the landowner?

Only on university, GLO , TP&W property, private property they are considered livestock
Example poachers where killing nilgia and got caught and were charged with basically cattle rustling or stealing livestock by harvest

 

[Flbt]

Only on university, GLO , TP&W property, private property they are considered livestock
Example poachers where killing nilgia and got caught and were charged with basically cattle rustling or stealing livestock by harvest

Ok live stock makes sense.
So no the government should have nothing to do with your livestock

 

[wesheltonj]

Exotics (non-game animals) are regulated by the Department of Agriculture, unless as pointed out above on state land, then TPWD. Two animals that are not game animals but still regulated by TPWD are Bears and Bobcats (CITES animal). The major non-game animals are Aoudad, Wild Hogs, Nilgai and Elk but still require a Texas hunting license, except hogs on private land.

By the way, the state also wants the Nilgai dead. They just approved the use of helicopters to cull them. They infect cattle and deer with cattle fever ticks.

 

[dchum]

Exotics (non-game animals) are regulated by the Department of Agriculture, unless as pointed out above on state land, then TPWD. Two animals that are not game animals but still regulated by TPWD are Bears and Bobcats (CITES animal). The major non-game animals are Aoudad, Wild Hogs, Nilgai and Elk but still require a Texas hunting license, except hogs on private land.

By the way, the state also wants the Nilgai dead. They just approved the use of helicopters to cull them. They infect cattle and deer with cattle fever ticks.

By Juan Montoya
“On July 21-22, 2016 - the federal government authorized the culling of 80 nilgai (Texas Antelope) from the Laguna Atascosa National Wildlife Refuge in Cameron County.
According to the San Antonio-based nonprofit Trinity Oaks Enterprises officials”

They have been conduction helicopter culling of Nilgai on gov land for over a decade now.

The cattle tick fever really scared them, but there are now several studies that show the Nilgai really aren’t as much to blame in the tick fever as was initially thought.

 

[Muskox]

Exotics (non-game animals) are regulated by the Department of Agriculture, unless as pointed out above on state land, then TPWD. Two animals that are not game animals but still regulated by TPWD are Bears and Bobcats (CITES animal). The major non-game animals are Aoudad, Wild Hogs, Nilgai and Elk but still require a Texas hunting license, except hogs on private land.

By the way, the state also wants the Nilgai dead. They just approved the use of helicopters to cull them. They infect cattle and deer with cattle fever ticks.

Wouldn't cattle, deer, and javelina also carry ticks and infect other animals with ticks?

There is a ton of bullshit science in both he nilgai and the aoudad problem.

Non-native wildlife is hard thing to wrap your head around.

There are probably some native ranges in the trans-pesos of bighorns. Some of it is not.

Like Mountain goats in places other than BC, Alberta, Alaska, Yukon, NWT, Washington, Montana and Northern Idaho. We have them introduced all over the countryside. Are they native? No, they are another always native.

Are bighorns native to everyplace they have been reintroduced? Maybe, some places but some places not.

FNAWS wants no domestic sheep on the land, no exotic sheep on the land and bighorns on every mountain. Then they want to tell you how to mange your lands.

In the 1890's-1970's states bartered wildlife, pronghorns were even introduced in Florida.

I would love a sheep tag, again some day. But this is asinine.

 

[pilar]

Wouldn't cattle, deer, and javelina also carry ticks and infect other animals with ticks?

There is a ton of bullshit science in both he nilgai and the aoudad problem.

Non-native wildlife is hard thing to wrap your head around.

There are probably some native ranges in the trans-pesos of bighorns. Some of it is not.

Like Mountain goats in places other than BC, Alberta, Alaska, Yukon, NWT, Washington, Montana and Northern Idaho. We have them introduced all over the countryside. Are they native? No, they are another always native.

Are bighorns native to everyplace they have been reintroduced? Maybe, some places but some places not.

FNAWS wants no domestic sheep on the land, no exotic sheep on the land and bighorns on every mountain. Then they want to tell you how to mange your lands.

In the 1890's-1970's states bartered wildlife, pronghorns were even introduced in Florida.

I would love a sheep tag, again some day. But this is asinine.

Yes on deer , nilgai, other animals carrying tick fever.
Way back in the 1990’s I worked for the agriculture department doing my master’s thesis , I was assigned to a German culling company who harvested nilgai for foreign export of the meat , I harvested ticks from nilgai, deer , wild hogs, even land tortoise's
And sent in the samples according to location, to track the spread of diseases
In some county’s all deer , Nilgai must be dipped or frozen overnight to kill the disease ticks.
So yes technically anything can carry a tick, but it’s primarily ungulents ( deer , nilgai, cattle) , pronghorn where eradicated / extinct from that region since late 1970’s- early 1980’s in Kennedy, brooks counties

 

[Muskox]

Yes on deer , nilgai, other animals carrying tick fever.
Way back in the 1990’s I worked for the agriculture department doing my master’s thesis , I was assigned to a German culling company who harvested nilgai for foreign export of the meat , I harvested ticks from nilgai, deer , wild hogs, even land tortoise's
And sent in the samples according to location, to track the spread of diseases
In some county’s all deer , Nilgai must be dipped or frozen overnight to kill the disease ticks.
So yes technically anything can carry a tick, but it’s primarily ungulents ( deer , nilgai, cattle) , pronghorn where eradicated / extinct from that region since late 1970’s- early 1980’s in Kennedy, brooks counties

Of course they do.

There have been studies in Africa on guineas and other birds and ticks removal. I think there have been similar studies on other birds (beyond oxpeckers) on ticks in Europe or North America but I have not researched it.

Bird populations can have a tremendous impact on ticks.

Sheep dip efforts do tremendous numbers on total tick populations. I personally believe that tick numbers were lower in the 1970's in Wyoming, Montana and Texas because of the volume of sheep on the range, and their active treatment.

Getting non-native exotics and native hoof stock to use sheep application systems in the field, is a challenge. but not 100% impossible.

I remember a big carpet roller covered in sheep dip that the sheep would bump up against 30 years ago. I am not currently involved in wildlife management or livestocks so I don't know if this is still a thing or not. Native wildlife would regularly inspect it, and bump against it. Contributing to tick removal.

 

[Flbt]

Of course they do.

There have been studies in Africa on guineas and other birds and ticks removal. I think there have been similar studies on other birds (beyond oxpeckers) on ticks in Europe or North America but I have not researched it.

Bird populations can have a tremendous impact on ticks.

Sheep dip efforts do tremendous numbers on total tick populations. I personally believe that tick numbers were lower in the 1970's in Wyoming, Montana and Texas because of the volume of sheep on the range, and their active treatment.

Getting non-native exotics and native hoof stock to use sheep application systems in the field, is a challenge. but not 100% impossible.

I remember a big carpet roller covered in sheep dip that the sheep would bump up against 30 years ago. I am not currently involved in wildlife management or livestocks so I don't know if this is still a thing or not. Native wildlife would regularly inspect it, and bump against it. Contributing to tick removal.

Some people still use the roller on cattle in fl. What they call the carpet thing here.
But a lot of that stoped with pore on womer
I still use sulfur salt blocks they seem to help with bugs

 

[Muskox]

Some people still use the roller on cattle in fl. What they call the carpet thing here.
But a lot of that stoped with pore on womer
I still use sulfur salt blocks they seem to help with bugs

Insecticide practices can have a tremendous effect on things that people do not see as a corollary.

A friend of mine is an entomologist for the Army, he told me that there is a global pandemic on bed bugs because hotels have had to use a different pesticide control measure on cockroaches. The new products do not kills bed bugs the same way.

 

[MS 9x56]

Wouldn't cattle, deer, and javelina also carry ticks and infect other animals with ticks?

There is a ton of bullshit science in both he nilgai and the aoudad problem.

Non-native wildlife is hard thing to wrap your head around.

There are probably some native ranges in the trans-pesos of bighorns. Some of it is not.

Like Mountain goats in places other than BC, Alberta, Alaska, Yukon, NWT, Washington, Montana and Northern Idaho. We have them introduced all over the countryside. Are they native? No, they are another always native.

Are bighorns native to everyplace they have been reintroduced? Maybe, some places but some places not.

FNAWS wants no domestic sheep on the land, no exotic sheep on the land and bighorns on every mountain. Then they want to tell you how to mange your lands.

In the 1890's-1970's states bartered wildlife, pronghorns were even introduced in Florida.

I would love a sheep tag, again some day. But this is asinine.

Enter the brown trout. No one is talking about eradicating them. Each species is an entity unto itself.

 

[Russ16]

Admittedly I haven't listened to it yet but I will.

I am all for prioritizing all of the native species. Mule deer, pronghorn, and sheep all suffer to one extent or another from a large Aoudad population from my understanding. Yes sheep hunting is expensive but if we don't take action mule deer might be right behind them.

It isn't unusualy for a non-native species to thrive when native species struggle. Just look at prairie grouse vs. pheasant in the Dakotas. Pheasant are much more adaptable to the farming practices than the native prairie birds are. Grouse are still huntable but not nearly in the numbers that pheasant are. In that case we aren't forced to make a choice between the two but if we were I would come down on the side of the native birds.

I don't have allthe answers to these situations but there are a lot of things to consider. Hunter opportunity is one of them but not in my mind the primary. Economic value plays a role but again, I don't think should solely determine the final decisions.

 

[Flbt]

Admittedly I haven't listened to it yet but I will.

I am all for prioritizing all of the native species. Mule deer, pronghorn, and sheep all suffer to one extent or another from a large Aoudad population from my understanding. Yes sheep hunting is expensive but if we don't take action mule deer might be right behind them.

It isn't unusualy for a non-native species to thrive when native species struggle. Just look at prairie grouse vs. pheasant in the Dakotas. Pheasant are much more adaptable to the farming practices than the native prairie birds are. Grouse are still huntable but not nearly in the numbers that pheasant are. In that case we aren't forced to make a choice between the two but if we were I would come down on the side of the native birds.

I don't have allthe answers to these situations but there are a lot of things to consider. Hunter opportunity is one of them but not in my mind the primary. Economic value plays a role but again, I don't think should solely determine the final decisions.

That’s fine on public land
But if the non native is seen as livestock on private land no don’t mess with them unless the land owner wants them gone.
If the government starts messing with what livestock you can have that’s non native I can see problems with cattle and goats next

 

[dchum]

Yes on deer , nilgai, other animals carrying tick fever.
Way back in the 1990’s I worked for the agriculture department doing my master’s thesis , I was assigned to a German culling company who harvested nilgai for foreign export of the meat , I harvested ticks from nilgai, deer , wild hogs, even land tortoise's
And sent in the samples according to location, to track the spread of diseases
In some county’s all deer , Nilgai must be dipped or frozen overnight to kill the disease ticks.
So yes technically anything can carry a tick, but it’s primarily ungulents ( deer , nilgai, cattle) , pronghorn where eradicated / extinct from that region since late 1970’s- early 1980’s in Kennedy, brooks counties

Pronghorn in Kennedy and brooks counties in the 1960s?

Do you mean 1760? There is no account to that.
Sorry

German culling company for Nilgai export

Have you been to Brooks county? You think there were pronghorns in the 1970s?

Strange post to me and makes me question the validity to your claimed experience.

 

[Russ16]

Enter the brown trout. No one is talking about eradicating them. Each species is an entity unto itself.

Although NM game is doing research on some high mountain lakes to study the feasibility of eliminating non native trout and restocking with native NM cutthroats. It would be a multi year process that includes killing every fish in the lake and leaving sterile for a year then restocking.

 

[pilar]

Insecticide practices can have a tremendous effect on things that people do not see as a corollary.

A friend of mine is an entomologist for the Army, he told me that there is a global pandemic on bed bugs because hotels have had to use a different pesticide control measure on cockroaches. The new products do not kills bed bugs the same way.

Yeah ticks , lice and flies are a scourge in the industry
Best thing I know to do is soak old towels and sheets and mix used motor oil and pyrethrum or other oil based insecticides and wrap and wire them to a pole set in the ground as a cattle and hog rubbing pole
Pink eye really messes with the cattle from flies
So oily insecticides work best

 

[pilar]

Pronghorn in Kennedy and brooks counties in the 1960s?

Do you mean 1760? There is no account to that.
Sorry

German culling company for Nilgai export

Have you been to Brooks county? You think there were pronghorns in the 1970s?

Strange post to me and makes me question the validity to your claimed experience.

Yes in the 1970’s the encino division had pronghorn
“”The historical range of pronghorn included the western two-thirds of Texas, extending as far east as the lower Rio Grande Valley and Kenedy County, which borders Brooks County. At the time, they were the second most numerous large land mammal after the American bison.
pronghorn populations in Texas are restricted to the western and northwestern parts of the state, including the Trans-Pecos, Panhandle, western Edwards Plateau, and Rolling Plains. They no longer inhabit Brooks county.

I worked on the Kennedy foundation land , down to the east ranch in port Mansfield ( hwy 183 )
So I don’t understand why you question that validity?