Any german drilling gun experts in the group?

k128

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I just picked up the 16ga double over a 9.3x72r. The rifle barrel caliber is according to the previous owner. I got it for a song and a dance and know nothing about it other than some heathen cerakoted the barrels. I need to have it stripped and blued. Ill include pics of all markings I can see. Any info anyone has I'd love to hear!

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I've had a few. Most likely the shotgun barrels are 2 1/2"
Be sure to do a chamber cast of the rifle barrel!
It's a good possibility that it is a 9.3x72, however, I had one that was marked as a 9.3x72 but it actually was an 8x72
There isn't anything in the markings that I can see to say what the caliber is.
I can't make out the makers name under the cerocoat.
Cool guns!!
Have fun with it and welcome to the forum...
 
I've had a few. Most likely the shotgun barrels are 2 1/2"
Be sure to do a chamber cast of the rifle barrel!
It's a good possibility that it is a 9.3x72, however, I had one that was marked as a 9.3x72 but it actually was an 8x72
There isn't anything in the markings that I can see to say what the caliber is.
I can't make out the makers name under the cerocoat.
Cool guns!!
Have fun with it and welcome to the forum...
Thanks!
 
I've had a few. Most likely the shotgun barrels are 2 1/2"
Be sure to do a chamber cast of the rifle barrel!
It's a good possibility that it is a 9.3x72, however, I had one that was marked as a 9.3x72 but it actually was an 8x72
There isn't anything in the markings that I can see to say what the caliber is.
I can't make out the makers name under the cerocoat.
Cool guns!!
Have fun with it and welcome to the forum...
It came with a box of rst 2 1/2" shells, but how can I tell if it's safe to shoot smokeless out of it? I didnt see anything that explicitly said nitro on the barrels. Did they stop putting nitro on stuff after a certain year?
 
These are 1891-1939 proof marks. Crown over "U" is final definitive proof and Crown over "G" is proof for rifles. The Crown over S is final proof for the shotgun barrels and the Crown over W indicates it was proofed for choked barrels. The Crown over U on the water table likely means Suhl manufacture. What I do not see is a Crown over N which would indicate nitro proofing.

The design of this gun with a cross key forend latch and under lever action lock would indicate late 19th century production. It was a very basic gun when manufactured. None of the photos show the actual locking mechanism, but this was a classic black powder design.

Looking at the texture being hidden by whatever is coloring the barrels, I would suspect the shotgun barrels are actually twist (damascus) of some sort, and based upon the overall quality of the gun, likely not the finest. For instance, damascus barrels on a best quality English or Continental gun are often as strong as their fluid steel counterparts. This gun would be very unlikely to have such. Also, during this transition period, damascus shotgun barrels were often combined with a steel rifle barrel.

Unless there is some other evidence, I would assume this is a black powder gun (fluid steel shotgun barrels or not). Until proven by a barrel thickness gauge, I wouldn't consider firing the shotgun barrels regardless of their actual condition under whatever that is hiding them. The condition of the name and raised spots indicate to me it the barrels have seen both significant buffing and corrosion.

As noted above, I would only trust a chamber cast to know what the rifle is. I learned my lesson quite a few years ago. I purchased a lovely pre-WWII drilling in 7x57R (so marked) and following the first shot, a straight wall case emerged. Someone had lengthened the chamber into some rimmed wildcat making it dangerously thin-walled.

I would hang it on the wall behind the bar.
 
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These are 1891-1939 proof marks. Crown over "U" is final definitive proof and Crown over "G" is proof for rifles. The Crown over S is final proof for the shotgun barrels and the Crown over W indicates it was proofed for choked barrels. The Crown over U on the water table likely means Suhl manufacture. What I do not see is a Crown over N which would indicate nitro proofing.

The design of this gun with a cross key forend latch and under lever action lock would indicate late 19th century production. It was a very basic gun when manufactured. None of the photos show the actual locking mechanism, but this was a classic black powder design.

Looking at the texture being hidden by whatever is coloring the barrels, I would suspect the shotgun barrels are actually twist (damascus) of some sort, and based upon the overall quality of the gun, likely not the finest. For instance, damascus barrels on a best quality English or Continental gun are often as strong as their fluid steel counterparts. This gun would be very unlikely to have such. Also, during this transition period, damascus shotgun barrels were often combined with a steel rifle barrel.

Unless there is some other evidence, I would assume this is a black powder gun (fluid steel shotgun barrels or not). Until proven by a barrel thickness gauge, I wouldn't consider firing the shotgun barrels regardless of their actual condition under whatever that is hiding them. The condition of the name and raised spots indicate to me it the barrels have seen both significant buffing and corrosion.

As noted above, I would only trust a chamber cast to know what the rifle is. I learned my lesson quite a few years ago. I purchased a lovely pre-WWII drilling in 7x57R (so marked) and following the first shot, a straight wall case emerged. Someone had lengthened the chamber into some rimmed wildcat making it dangerously thin-walled.

I would hang it on the wall behind the bar.
Thank you for the extremely detailed info! I truly appreciate it. I'm going to try to remove whatever the previous owner coated the barrels with and see whats under there. Probably not cost effective or even possible, but it would be cool to have a new set of modern barrels made for it.
 
I was finally able to make out Feinste-Wittner on the left barrel and Stahl - Lavte on the right barrel.
 
These are 1891-1939 proof marks. Crown over "U" is final definitive proof and Crown over "G" is proof for rifles. The Crown over S is final proof for the shotgun barrels and the Crown over W indicates it was proofed for choked barrels. The Crown over U on the water table likely means Suhl manufacture. What I do not see is a Crown over N which would indicate nitro proofing.

The design of this gun with a cross key forend latch and under lever action lock would indicate late 19th century production. It was a very basic gun when manufactured. None of the photos show the actual locking mechanism, but this was a classic black powder design.

Looking at the texture being hidden by whatever is coloring the barrels, I would suspect the shotgun barrels are actually twist (damascus) of some sort, and based upon the overall quality of the gun, likely not the finest. For instance, damascus barrels on a best quality English or Continental gun are often as strong as their fluid steel counterparts. This gun would be very unlikely to have such. Also, during this transition period, damascus shotgun barrels were often combined with a steel rifle barrel.

Unless there is some other evidence, I would assume this is a black powder gun (fluid steel shotgun barrels or not). Until proven by a barrel thickness gauge, I wouldn't consider firing the shotgun barrels regardless of their actual condition under whatever that is hiding them. The condition of the name and raised spots indicate to me it the barrels have seen both significant buffing and corrosion.

As noted above, I would only trust a chamber cast to know what the rifle is. I learned my lesson quite a few years ago. I purchased a lovely pre-WWII drilling in 7x57R (so marked) and following the first shot, a straight wall case emerged. Someone had lengthened the chamber into some rimmed wildcat making it dangerously thin-walled.

I would hang it on the wall behind the bar.

I agree as to the facts above wholeheartedly. The conclusions are a bit pessimistic, as I think I'd have better than 50% chance of getting the gun serviceable. Nonetheless, the pessimism is probably a mission of mercy because I see $1000 of work in that gun to make it clean, tight, and presentable IF the bores and walls are good. Seeing the gun, rebrowned and cleaned up in serviceable condition is worth $900-$1200, it would be cheaper to pay someone to kick you in the balls, take a grand from your wallet, and call it a day.

For the sadist, the steps to get the gun going again (determine it is safe) go like this:

1.) Meticulous measurements of the wall thickness of the shotgun tubes, a tricky task since a drilling has a lot of ribs that can conceal dangerous thin spots.

2.) Clean and inspect chamber and bores of all three.

3.) Chamber cast and slug the 9.3x72r to verify it is suitable.

4.) Check that the gun is tight and "on face".

5.) Strip the barrels. Rebrown them. Retrace the engraving optional.

6.) Clean checkering, recut and touch up borders and rounded spots.

7.) Repair or replace the butt plate or pad. (they all need something in this area)

8.) Take the gun apart, carefully clean and lubricate. Time and adjust screws.


9.) Address unforeseen issues discovered along the way, unless 1-2-3-4 indicate the gun is a wall hanger.
 
I agree as to the facts above wholeheartedly. The conclusions are a bit pessimistic, as I think I'd have better than 50% chance of getting the gun serviceable. Nonetheless, the pessimism is probably a mission of mercy because I see $1000 of work in that gun to make it clean, tight, and presentable IF the bores and walls are good. Seeing the gun, rebrowned and cleaned up in serviceable condition is worth $900-$1200, it would be cheaper to pay someone to kick you in the balls, take a grand from your wallet, and call it a day.

For the sadist, the steps to get the gun going again (determine it is safe) go like this:

1.) Meticulous measurements of the wall thickness of the shotgun tubes, a tricky task since a drilling has a lot of ribs that can conceal dangerous thin spots.

2.) Clean and inspect chamber and bores of all three.

3.) Chamber cast and slug the 9.3x72r to verify it is suitable.

4.) Check that the gun is tight and "on face".

5.) Strip the barrels. Rebrown them. Retrace the engraving optional.

6.) Clean checkering, recut and touch up borders and rounded spots.

7.) Repair or replace the butt plate or pad. (they all need something in this area)

8.) Take the gun apart, carefully clean and lubricate. Time and adjust screws.


9.) Address unforeseen issues discovered along the way, unless 1-2-3-4 indicate the gun is a wall hanger
Thank you for the breakdown! The wealth of knowledge you all share with me is humbling. I might be better served putting those funds towards completing my cz550 receiver, or saving for my eventually heym double rifle. Ill try and strip the coating and at least see how it looks underneath.
 

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