5 R rifling

[flatwater bill]

Any shooters with extensive experience with 5 R rifling? Are such barrels easier to clean? A lot? Are they more accurate? If so, I expect that the 1000 yard boys are all over this rifling technique. Any other pros or cons? My thanks...........................FWB

 

[bruce moulds]

bill, i have used a number of them in fclass rifles.
i have come to the conclusion that they are neither more nor less accurate than conventional rifling.
if they have a problem it is that brushes and patches on jags do not necessarily follow the rifling in a spiral fashion, but rather skip over the rifling.
there are reports of this happening with certain products in such a way that flame cutting has ended up going across the lands in a minority of cases, ruining the barrel.
in my own case this has never happened, but i have always helped the rod turn with the rifling.
it is annoying having to do this when it is unnecessary with conventional rifling.
i think humans always assume something new is by definition better, but this is not always the case.
i have also tried gaintwist, and that was no better either.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

sorry forgot this.
some gunsmiths report difficulty chambering 5r barrels.
aparrently the odd number of lands/grooves sets up some kind of chatter that reaults in an out of round chamber.
there are special reamer designs that attempt to deal with this, and certain lathe operation techniques are also required.
bruce.

 

[Butch Lambert]

I believe on Bartlein Barrel's website it says they can't document any advantage, but people want it and they are there to please. I believe and so do a lot of competition shooters and gunsmiths, if you get a good barrel in any configuration, it is a good barrel. I've chambered and used 3,4,5,6, and 8 groove barrels in different types of rifling and find it doesn't seem to matter.

 

[Eric Anderson]

bill, i have used a number of them in fclass rifles.
i have come to the conclusion that they are neither more nor less accurate than conventional rifling.
if they have a problem it is that brushes and patches on jags do not necessarily follow the rifling in a spiral fashion, but rather skip over the rifling.
there are reports of this happening with certain products in such a way that flame cutting has ended up going across the lands in a minority of cases, ruining the barrel.
in my own case this has never happened, but i have always helped the rod turn with the rifling.
it is annoying having to do this when it is unnecessary with conventional rifling.
i think humans always assume something new is by definition better, but this is not always the case.
i have also tried gaintwist, and that was no better either.
bruce.

From what I know of progressive rifling, it’s advantage is not that of increased accuracy directly. The advantage is that it lowers chamber pressures and allows you to impart an extremely high rpm without ripping the jacket off the bullet. It was used on many German WWII anti tank guns, and is still used on aircraft cannon, such as the 20mm and 30mm.

It is really not needed unless you are trying to eek out every last bit of velocity.

It’s the last trick until you have to abandon rifling altogether and go to smoothbore fin stabilized discarding sabot rounds.

 

[mark-hunter]

What about polygonal rifling, and multiradial rifling (sabbati).
Any benefits in this? Accuracy, speeed increase, barrel wear?

 

[Butch Lambert]

What about polygonal rifling, and multiradial rifling (sabbati).
Any benefits in this? Accuracy, speeed increase, barrel wear?

Barrelmakers have tried and experimented with many different land and groove designs. As far as pure accuracy in match rifles from short range benchrest to 1000 yard competition, conventional rifling is still the winner. Gain twist barrels work well in rifles that shoot lead bullets.

 

[Rule 303]

I remember reading the Russians came up wit the 5R rifling. Tested it to the Nth degree and found it slightly more accurate than standard rifling, what ever that might be. I cant shoot that well so it bothers me not.

 

[One Day...]

Any shooters with extensive experience with 5 R rifling? Are such barrels easier to clean? A lot? Are they more accurate? If so, I expect that the 1000 yard boys are all over this rifling technique. Any other pros or cons? My thanks...........................FWB

Hello Bill. I own a Remington Defense / Accuracy International Mk 13 clone in .300 Win Mag that has a 5R barrel and it shoots well enough...

Mk 13 Rifle

• One Day...
• Feb 18, 2019

But I am with Bruce and Butch: I cannot really see a difference vs. other tubes I own or have owned with conventional rifling.

i have come to the conclusion that they are neither more nor less accurate than conventional rifling

I find it doesn't seem to matter.

Note that I do not shoot paper, so I am not chasing 1/4 or 1/2 MOA, but I ring 12" plates at 1,000+ yd and mine seems to obey the same general rule I have seen on other pipes: half a dozen or so shots to stabilize the barrel after thorough cleaning, then good to go for about 200 shots before slugs start landing too obviously off the plates (i.e. off ~ 1 MOA).

FYI Eric Anderson, I may be totally off my rockers but I do not believe that 5R rifling has a progressive twist.

From what I know of progressive rifling, it’s advantage is not that of increased accuracy directly

If I remember well, the difference between 5R rifling and conventional rifling (regardless of how many lands & groves) is in the shape of the lands. Conventional lands have a 90 degree edge, while 5R lands have a slanted edge (not sure of the angle).

 

[Ray B]

The question that I have with gain twist is: Does the engraving on the bullet from the changing pitch of the rifling show additional cutting compared to the engraving of a non-changing twist?

 

[bruce moulds]

ray,
yes it does.
the rifling marks on a bullet fored in a 1:2 gain, (in this case 26/1 goint to 13/1) is clearly wedge shaped, ans opposed to paralell with a singular twist.
with cast bullets, ideally the wedge's wide end is toward the front of the bullet, but some bullets where the nose bumps into the rifling have more grip at the front and the wide end if the wedge is at the base end.
the former seems better for accuracy, and is dealt with by bullet design.
some of the modern gaintwists as per bartlein etc might go from say 10/1 down to 9/1, or even less gain, and this is virtually unnoticeable on a bullet jacket.
one day,
you are right,
5r has canted lands, and can be gain or standard twist.
it does by definition have 5 grooves and lands.
this is considered by some as having the advantage of the land in the barrel displacing bullet material into the groove on the opposite side of the barrel.
lee enfields had 5 groove rifling, and although called enfield rifling, it wad designed by william metford who grw up designing barrels for long range black powder rifles, first muzzle loaded then cartridge guns.
mostly his black powder match rifles had 7 grooves.
he and sir henry halford experimented out to 2 miles with 50 cal black powder rifles, and got results not dissimilar to what is now done in the king of 2 miles competition.
things have not advanced much in that line of business since the 1880s.
bruce.

 

[Butch Lambert]

I think if you looked closely you will see 5 radii in the lands and grooves of a 5R barrel. Frank Green of Bartlein Barrels made a gaintwist, LH twist, and 8 groove rimfire barrel for me. It went 16.5 to 16 in gain. I have not shot it yet. Frank posted some targets of his and I asked if he would do one for me. Frank said it was only a weekend deal to satisfy himself. I twisted his arm over a period of time and he did 2 more. The other went to Eric Uptagraff. Eric is an AMU shooter and former World Cup and Olympic shooter.

 

[One Day...]

it does by definition have 5 grooves and lands

I think if you looked closely you will see 5 radii in the lands and grooves of a 5R barrel

Yes indeed, hence the name. Otherwise I do not think we would call them 5R
In my statement "the difference between 5R rifling and conventional rifling (regardless of how many lands & groves) is in the shape of the lands" the qualification "regardless of how many lands & groves" applied to "conventional rifling" that, as we all know, can have 4, 6 , 8 lands.
Sorry if my syntax was confusing
Thx
P

 

[Butch Lambert]

Yes indeed, hence the name. Otherwise I do not think we would call them 5R
In my statement "the difference between 5R rifling and conventional rifling (regardless of how many lands & groves) is in the shape of the lands" the qualification "regardless of how many lands & groves" applied to "conventional rifling" that, as we all know, can have 4, 6 , 8 lands.
Sorry if my syntax was confusing
Thx
P

I read you right.

 

[flatwater bill]

Thanks for all the info everyone. My original question was regarding 5R rifling only. I am not interested in gain twist, it is a separate topic that I may consider some day. Based upon the replies, I will order my bbl with standard rifling.......many thanks......................FWB