470 NE Crimp or Not

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Just contacted Lee they returned my email. Here is their reply.
No we do not make any dies for this cartridge as a standard product.



Normally, you would then have the option to order a custom set, however, this cartridge is on our Cannot make list.

Very odd, they made a custom FCD for me a number of years ago now.

 

[mitch4570]

I quess I will call. It seems lately that the help doesn't know what they are talking about. Not just at Lee but every where.

 

[Ray B]

I prefer to seat the bullet with a separate die that the crimp die so for the 470 NE I have the seater die set to put the bullet cannelure in cline with the case neck, then remove the seater die and replace with the seater/crimp die for a 475 Turnbull (the seater stem removed). I get a good and uniform crimp.

 

[Racer00]

They made one for my 470 last November. Called them. They requested a dummy, unprimed complete round be sent to them. Took 3-4 weeks to get my die and dummy round back. Works like a charm for me. It was very expensive compared to the standard dies I purchased for my 375 and 416 though.

 

[mitch4570]

Thanks, I will have to call them.

 

[mitch4570]

I quess I will call. It seems lately that the help doesn't know what they are talking about. Not just at Lee but every where.

Jus got my 470 crimp die today ordered last oct.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Jus got my 470 crimp die today ordered last oct.

Lee, like a lot of companies, has lost direction with customer service. It’s worse if you live outside the us as they don’t care if they stuff you around
Gumpy

 

[Rafiki]

Just contacted Lee they returned my email. Here is their reply.
No we do not make any dies for this cartridge as a standard product.



Normally, you would then have the option to order a custom set, however, this cartridge is on our Cannot make list.

This is interesting to me as I had the same or similar response when trying to custom order a FCD for my 50-90 Sharps. This was a couple years ago but at the time they said no-can-do, too large. Well, they were selling a 50-something that was quite similar so I asked why not. They ended up making one fore me and it works great.

As for crip or no crimp, I always crimp. Some say the reason to crimp is to prevent the bullets in the cartridges in the magazine from shifting under recoil. True enough, but also it helps to build pressure helping powder burn in large cartridges with modern powders.

 

[Daryl S]

The VERY best characteristic of the Lee Factory Crimp Die is the bullet does not need a crimp groove, also called a canellure. This is due to the case and bullet rising up at the same time and a collet compresses the case into the bullet, without pressure on the nose of the bullet.
Best accuracy in .22 Hornet and .218 Bee when factory crimped. Helps the powder burn better.
In a DR, it will keep the case from creeping out of the other chamber's case under recoil.
I would say it is a must, as-have others here.
As with the two small bore ctgs noted above, straight cases benefit from crimping for the same reason. Rafiki also noted this, with his straight cased .50.

 

[Russ16]

This raises an interesting questions.

I’ve always viewed the crimp as more important in cartridges in a bolt gun. A 375 or 416 has a cartridge in the bottom of the mag that deals with 3-4 incidences of recoil and might have some contact with the mag wall.

A shell in a double rifle is impacted by incidence of recoil. Potentially mane two in a situation where the fist bbl is fired and then reloaded before a follow up. But I would think very rarely more than that.

For that reason I’ve viewed the crimp on my double rifle shells as far less important than on my 375 bolt gun loads.

Am I way off base here?

 

[Wildwillalaska]

This raises an interesting questions.

I’ve always viewed the crimp as more important in cartridges in a bolt gun. A 375 or 416 has a cartridge in the bottom of the mag that deals with 3-4 incidences of recoil and might have some contact with the mag wall.

A shell in a double rifle is impacted by incidence of recoil. Potentially mane two in a situation where the fist bbl is fired and then reloaded before a follow up. But I would think very rarely more than that.

For that reason I’ve viewed the crimp on my double rifle shells as far less important than on my 375 bolt gun loads.

Am I way off base here?

Until you have a bullet nose out from recoil and wedge itself in the lands. Makes removal a PIA in the field and can create obvious pressure issues.

I found some of my NF Semispitzers were not holding enough crimp where cases would allow the bullet to slide forward into the lands. Noticed twice on left barrel, fired right barrel and moments before another firing where I reloaded the right and shot it again. 1firing no issue, 2nd firing, lodged.

In Zimbabwe I had it happen twice, both cleared by using case head of empty shell, but further pulled the bullet from the case on one, and entirely on the the second one.

Since I love NF bullets but there really isn’t much of a crimping groove to roll into I decided to try one of CH Tool’s taper crimp dies. Worked like a charm, can shoot several rounds with the same one left in opposite barrel and it doesn’t budge a bit. And bullets like CEB that have wonderfully deep grooves but also not the best for neck tension…ie spin in the case even with proper crimp…the taper die is amazing. And it’s super fast to use.

I now own and use one for 450/400, 450, and 500.

 

[Rafiki]

This raises an interesting questions.

I’ve always viewed the crimp as more important in cartridges in a bolt gun. A 375 or 416 has a cartridge in the bottom of the mag that deals with 3-4 incidences of recoil and might have some contact with the mag wall.

A shell in a double rifle is impacted by incidence of recoil. Potentially mane two in a situation where the fist bbl is fired and then reloaded before a follow up. But I would think very rarely more than that.

For that reason I’ve viewed the crimp on my double rifle shells as far less important than on my 375 bolt gun loads.

Am I way off base here?

Not really in terms of safety but here's the deal, these historical large body cartridges are massive because in the day many were originally black powder. Eventually they transitioned to smokeless using sticks of cordite and then to smokeless powder. These days there is little reason for such huge cases to achieve the same velocity because the efficiency of propellants are so much better. So now you have huge cases with large slow burning powder columns that need to build pressure to burn more efficiently a heavy crimp helps with that, it also prevents unfired bullets that come under recoil stay in place.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

The VERY best characteristic of the Lee Factory Crimp Die is the bullet does not need a crimp groove, also called a canellure. This is due to the case and bullet rising up at the same time and a collet compresses the case into the bullet, without pressure on the nose of the bullet.
Best accuracy in .22 Hornet and .218 Bee when factory crimped. Helps the powder burn better.
In a DR, it will keep the case from creeping out of the other chamber's case under recoil.
I would say it is a must, as-have others here.
As with the two small bore ctgs noted above, straight cases benefit from crimping for the same reason. Rafiki also noted this, with his straight cased .50.

Also improves the 32-20 in a lever gun
Gumpy

 

[Badboymelvin]

I always crimp, not just with the .458's and 425's but with my .303 British and .243 too.
When I reload, crimping with a Lee Factory Crimp Die is just part of the process...
Not only does it help the bullet stay put on heavy-recoiling rifles, but I believe it helps accuracy and consistency too, no matter what the cartridge.

Russ

 

[Daryl S]

I also shoot bolt guns, but have never had bullets move under recoil, neither in or out, even in the two .375 H&H's, the BRNO .358 mag, nor in 2 9.3x62's or 9.3x57, my .300 mags, or any other bottle necked ctg. I did crimp in the .375 Lever gun due to its straight case but not the .357 Winchester due to tight necks and the bottlenecked round using middle-of-the-road powders.
If you have good bullet pull on a bottlenecked round, i see no reason to crimp.
Might be an interesting test though, to test accuracy, crimped and no crimp in the belted mag cases, as well as the 9.3's.

 

[Safari Dave]

You, definitely, need to crimp with a .470 NE.

IMO, depending on the rifle, the recoil can be very hard with a .470 NE.

I would recommend and do crimp my .470 NE loadings.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

When I crimp nitro shells, I just put a very slight and 'hard to see' curve into cannelure. The brass hiding the cannelure (picture a Woodleigh cannelure) completely but curved in just enough to be secure. They may not look very secure because one has to hold them to the light and view the edge to see this slight curve, but there is NO WAY they will move. You don't need a heavy factory looking Winchester or Rem crimp on them. Enough brass that you cannot see on the inside curves into the cannelure and will prevent it from moving, apart from using a hammer puller or something. Same goes for my shells for my bolt guns. They won't move. But yes, if uncrimped in a double, chances are that recoil will pull a bullet out into the lands, or at least a 'cannelure width' out if a same shell remains in the left barrel upon reloading the right a couple times.

 

[Russ16]

So is anyone aware of a manufacturer who makes a crimp die for a 450/400. Lee doesn't list one on their website. I use the Lee with other calibers.

 

[tomahawker]

Reloaded some 450 NE sans crimp and bullet shift was discernible with naked eye in the unfired round in second barrel.