2 Bore Rifles History

[Bill Raby]

I shoot 4 bore rifle quite frequently and I have a lot of fun it. Now I got the crazy idea of building a 2 bore rifle. I am not going to hunt anything with it. Just poke really big holes in paper.

Not too many 4 bore rifles were made in the 19th century, but for a while they seemed to be the standard elephant gun. From what I have found there were only 6 of the 2 bore rifles built during the 19th century. I actually found a photo of one of them. I have not seen a single written account of one ever being used for hunting. These things would throw a 3500 grain round ball at 1500 fps. Seems like penetration would not be very good. I am just wondering if anyone has heard of one of these actually being used for hunting.

Here is a picture

 

[Ridge Runner]

In the early years in the US, 2, 4, 6, and 8 bores were primarily used for market hunting, specifically waterfowl. Most were very big, very long guns known as "Punt" guns.

These guns were mounted in boats to float down rivers into flocks of waterfowl killing and maiming ducks and geese. The wounded waterfowl would be finished off. However more wounded would be lost than recovered.

Check out Hickcock 45 on YouTube. He did a video shooting one of these guns.

IIRC, These guns were loaded with 4 ounces of black powder and 4 ounces of lead shot. I don't remember the size of the shot.

Here are 2 Google photos:

Hope this helps.

 

[steve white]

Some early explorer shot one...can't remember who offhand, but the recoil was so bad it gave him headaches and almost shattered his nerve, as I recall.

BTW, just how HEAVY would that little baby probably weigh in?....I've seen 4 bores run to 16 pounds!

 

[Sarg]

Some early explorer shot one...can't remember who offhand, but the recoil was so bad it gave him headaches and almost shattered his nerve, as I recall.

BTW, just how HEAVY would that little baby probably weigh in?....I've seen 4 bores run to 16 pounds!

Maybe Samuel Baker he supposedly had a 2 Bore called “Baby” that wizzed him around like a wind cock ?

1860s so a ML of around 20lbs

I think Freddy Selous used a 4 bore that got double charged & split his face open & he later said he wished he hadn’t started shooting such a big bore as it blew his nerves !

I think you are confused with a 8 bore at 16lbs, 4 bores are like 20-24lbs & a single might be 18lbs .

My 12bore rifle is near 15lb & meant for a very heavy powder charge .

 

[Franco]

Foster's Bighorn, a restaurant located in Rio Vista Calif, houses the collection of Bill Foster. Over 300 mounts from the 1920's to the 1950's. My dad and my uncles were friends of Bill's and I remember them talking about a big bore shotgun used to shoot ducks in the Delta, hanging on the wall.

Perhaps some members have been there more recently and can add some info.

 

[Bill Raby]

I am asking about rifles. Not punt guns. I am very familiar with 4 bore recoil. I normally use a 450 to 500 grain powder charge. One of my rifles weighs 17 pounds, the other is 18 pounds. A 2 bore rifle would be about 20 to 25 pounds. The recoil on the 4 bores is enormous. About 300 to 400 ft/lbs. A 500 grain powder charge will knock me back a few feet. I doesn't give me headache. No detached retina. And it certainly does NOT make me spin around at all. Both rifles have brass butt plates. No recoil pads. The old descriptions of the recoil are wildly exaggerated. Anyone here that is used to the larger dangerous game rifles would have no trouble with a 4 bore. I have never gotten a bruised shoulder from a 4 bore.

2 bore will take up to a 700 grain powder charge. That gives you 17.500 ft/lbs of muzzle energy and about 800 ft/lbs of recoil. Yes, that is ridiculous! Samuel Baker had a 3 bore. Not a 2 bore. He was firing 3500 grain conical explosive bullets. Smaller caliber than a 2 bore but same weight as a 2 bore round ball. Don't know the powder charge he used for that, but he was known to use 20 dram powder charges in 4 bore. About 550 grains.

Building one would be quite a challenge. I think it would be fun. Very few of these were made historically. I am just wondering if any of you know of any accounts of one of these ever actually being used for hunting.

 

[Franco]

I watched Bill Jones shoot a big bore rifle at the DSC Historical Rifle shoot a few years ago. I don't recall the specific bore, but it put about a 1" hole in the target and flames shot out the end of the barrel.

I do not know if he has ever hunted with it.

Good luck with the build.

 

[skydiver386]

I shoot 4 bore rifle quite frequently and I have a lot of fun it. Now I got the crazy idea of building a 2 bore rifle. I am not going to hunt anything with it. Just poke really big holes in paper.

Not too many 4 bore rifles were made in the 19th century, but for a while they seemed to be the standard elephant gun. From what I have found there were only 6 of the 2 bore rifles built during the 19th century. I actually found a photo of one of them. I have not seen a single written account of one ever being used for hunting. These things would throw a 3500 grain round ball at 1500 fps. Seems like penetration would not be very good. I am just wondering if anyone has heard of one of these actually being used for hunting.

Here is a picture
View attachment 723890

That would be a fun build.

Do you have a lathe, mill or other tools, or will you have someone else do the machine work?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Hi, @Bill Raby

To answer your question, I have extensively conducted research into whether any 2 bore RIFLES were actually used by any hunters back in the black powder era. The short answer is- Only Sir Samuel White Baker, although it wasn’t a true 2 bore. He wrote about them in “The Nile Tributaries Of Abyssinia” and “Ismailia”. He owned three. All were single barrel percussion cap muzzle loaders built by Holland & Holland which he called “Muzzle Loading Holland Half Pounders”. These fired an iron lead coated explosive shell containing a bursting charge of half an ounce of fine grained Curtis & Harvey’s No. 3 black powder. The propelling charge was 12 drams of fine grained Curtis & Harvey’s No. 3 black powder. One of these three rifles continues to survive today. It is Holland & Holland rifle No. 1526.

It was found at Singo, Uganda in 1894 by Ashburton in the possession of Rehun Werni, a private in Emin Pasha's Sudanese forces.

The Holland & Holland Ledger actually lists it as a 3 bore, because if loaded with spherical bullets… it will shoot a lead ball weighing 1/3 of a pound. The only half pound projectile it could fire, was a conical explosive shell (as described above).

In modern times, American reloading component producers Schroeder & Hetzendorfer designed a 2 bore metallic centerfire cartridge. They supply brass cases and lead bullets for reloading.

American gunsmith Colin Stolzer built a few single barreled rifles in 2 bore (using the Schroeder & Hetzendorfer cartridge), weighing 22 pounds.

And one double barrel rifle, weighing 44 pounds,

The flintlock musket which you showed in your picture, looks suspiciously like one which was a gift from the Marquise De Monestrol to Emperor Bao Dai (of French Indo-China). It was a smoothbore made in Belgium (firing a half pound spherical ball) and was never actually used by the emperor (who instead hunted all of his big game with a Christophe sidelock ejector in .577 Nitro Express).

 

[Franco]

@Hunter-Habib,

Were these rifles built by Stolzer intended to be fired from the shoulder?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@Hunter-Habib,

Were these rifles built by Stolzer intended to be fired from the shoulder?

@Franco

Yes, they were. But in my opinion, these rifles are more of a novelty than a practical working piece for regular field use.

 

[Franco]

Wow, I guess I should stop whining about my 458 Lott.

 

[Sarg]

Hi, @Bill Raby

To answer your question, I have extensively conducted research into whether any 2 bore RIFLES were actually used by any hunters back in the black powder era. The short answer is- Only Sir Samuel White Baker, although it wasn’t a true 2 bore. He wrote about them in “The Nile Tributaries Of Abyssinia” and “Ismailia”. He owned three. All were single barrel percussion cap muzzle loaders built by Holland & Holland which he called “Muzzle Loading Holland Half Pounders”. These fired an iron lead coated explosive shell containing a bursting charge of half an ounce of fine grained Curtis & Harvey’s No. 3 black powder. The propelling charge was 12 drams of fine grained Curtis & Harvey’s No. 3 black powder. One of these three rifles continues to survive today. It is Holland & Holland rifle No. 1526.

View attachment 723916
It was found at Singo, Uganda in 1894 by Ashburton in the possession of Rehun Werni, a private in Emin Pasha's Sudanese forces.

The Holland & Holland Ledger actually lists it as a 3 bore, because if loaded with spherical bullets… it will shoot a lead ball weighing 1/3 of a pound. The only half pound projectile it could fire, was a conical explosive shell (as described above).

In modern times, American reloading component producers Schroeder & Hetzendorfer designed a 2 bore metallic centerfire cartridge. They supply brass cases and lead bullets for reloading.

American gunsmith Colin Stolzer built a few single barreled rifles in 2 bore (using the Schroeder & Hetzendorfer cartridge), weighing 22 pounds.
View attachment 723919
And one double barrel rifle, weighing 44 pounds,

View attachment 723918

The flintlock musket which you showed in your picture, looks suspiciously like one which was a gift from the Marquise De Monestrol to Emperor Bao Dai (of French Indo-China). It was a smoothbore made in Belgium (firing a half pound spherical ball) and was never actually used by the emperor (who instead hunted all of his big game with a Christophe sidelock ejector in .577 Nitro Express).

Yes I did a similar look about (reading old books & on line) on 2 Bore rifles years ago & I don’t think anyone really used a real 2 bore Rifle back in the day, big 4 bores yes & some shoulder fired Shotgun guns “maybe” but mostly for use on a Punt, shooting Water Fowl.

Wall & Rampart guns also I suppose ?

Most 2bore or close were made in modern times, even 4 bores are getting too big to fit in a proper sized rifle but do work & if hammered look ok, oh Ewart Grogans looks cool with under lever.

These are some of the best looking 2 bores I have seen.

@Hunter-Habib is that photo not of Selous gun with the Elephant skin reinforcing holding the gun together, if not looks very similar ?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Yes I did a similar look about (reading old books & on line) on 2 Bore rifles years ago & I don’t think anyone really used a real 2 bore Rifle back in the day, big 4 bores yes & some shoulder fired Shotgun guns “maybe” but mostly for use on a Punt, shooting Water Fowl.

Wall & Rampart guns also I suppose ?

Most 2bore or close were made in modern times, even 4 bores are getting too big to fit in a proper sized rifle but do work & if hammered look ok, oh Ewart Grogans looks cool with under lever.

These are some of the best looking 2 bores I have seen.

View attachment 724014

View attachment 724015

@Hunter-Habib is that photo not of Selous gun with the Elephant skin reinforcing holding the gun together, if not looks very similar ?

Hi, Sarg. It’s quite understandable why you would think that, since both the firearms look so similar.

But no, this is Holland & Holland rifle No. 1526. Sir Samuel White Baker’s infamous “Muzzle Loading Holland Half Pounder”. An elephant had trodden upon it in 1866 and the reinforcement made from elephant hide (Rimpi) was used to locally repair the gun.

It’s currently in a museum in Great Britain.

 

[steve white]

Maybe Samuel Baker he supposedly had a 2 Bore called “Baby” that wizzed him around like a wind cock ?

1860s so a ML of around 20lbs

I think Freddy Selous used a 4 bore that got double charged & split his face open & he later said he wished he hadn’t started shooting such a big bore as it blew his nerves !

I think you are confused with a 8 bore at 16lbs, 4 bores are like 20-24lbs & a single might be 18lbs .

My 12bore rifle is near 15lb & meant for a very heavy powder charge .

I think Selous was the one...ONLY a 4 bore!

 

[Bill Raby]

Interesting information. Thank you! It's about what I expected. I have never heard one being used for hunting, but possibly one of you guys have. I sure would not want to carry around a 20+ pound gun all day.

I will probably build one, but it will be a little while. It would probably be at least a year to get a barrel made. Got a few other projects to take care of also. Finding a stock blank thick enough could be a problem also. But not a big deal. Building a 4 bore is a fairly complicated job. You just cannot really get parts that will fit. Everything has to be made from scratch or modified. 2 bore would be even more work. It is all fun.

I will be doing all the machine work, carving, engraving. There will be video of it posted on Rumble. Both of the 4 bores that I have done are already on there. I will not be shooting any elephants with it, but it will be built for actual use.

Funny thing is that for the really high recoil guns, a metal buttplate actually works a lot better than a recoil pad. A 4 bore has bore than enough recoil to fully compress any recoil pad. At that point it is hard and the wrong shape. A wide curved metal buttplate with no edges is going to hold the shape.

I have a 458 Lott also. I hardly even notice the recoil on that anymore.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Yes I did a similar look about (reading old books & on line) on 2 Bore rifles years ago & I don’t think anyone really used a real 2 bore Rifle back in the day, big 4 bores yes & some shoulder fired Shotgun guns “maybe” but mostly for use on a Punt, shooting Water Fowl.

Wall & Rampart guns also I suppose ?

Most 2bore or close were made in modern times, even 4 bores are getting too big to fit in a proper sized rifle but do work & if hammered look ok, oh Ewart Grogans looks cool with under lever.

These are some of the best looking 2 bores I have seen.

View attachment 724014

View attachment 724015

@Hunter-Habib is that photo not of Selous gun with the Elephant skin reinforcing holding the gun together, if not looks very similar ?

There are shoulder fired 2 bores if you Google search blunderbuss, pirate blunderbuss, or pilgrim blunderbuss.

If you haven't already seen it:

Rock Island Auctions (RIA), on YouTube: Double Duece, talks about a double barrel BP cartridge rifle, and shows a muzzleloading 2 bore single shot pistol.