Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

375Fox said:

Tanzania is by far the most expensive in general when comparing different countries. They generally cater to a different caliber of clientele, but the country also has some huge areas set aside for hunting. Selous is actually least expensive area to hunt. Maasailand is generally the most expensive.

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That much I knew. It looks like an absolute hunters paradise if you can write enough zeroes on a check.

Tdsmith517 said:

Aren’t daily rates for DG in TZ like $2500-3000 a day? It seems like they don’t feel the need to fill quota for trophy fees if they are netting $52,500-63,000 in daily rates for a 21 day lion hunt and add on a few trophy fees for animals shot as either bait or add ons. And it’s $60,000-70,000 in a hurry. Seems to me like they are netting some income either way. Now while having unfulfilled tags is just part of hunting, nobody is potentially dropping over a $100,000 to be told that it’s policy to leave half their quota unfulfilled once they arrive. Seems to me that conversation should happen before.

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Day rates alone on the lion hunt being discussed exceed $150k before accounting for observers, air charters, gun permits, license, or a single trophy fee.

@kpoynter can correct me if I’m wrong but his 21 Day Buffalo/Leopard/Sitatunga Hunt as a second Hunter on this hunt was likely in the $250-300k range … now add a lion into the mix and increased day rates

Tdsmith517 said:

That much I knew. It looks like an absolute hunters paradise if you can write enough zeroes on a check.

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I think its reputation is overstated. You can find incredible areas in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique, Caprivi that would compare to the best in Tanzania. It’s just a different country and different experience for those that want it. A 10 day buffalo hunt can actually be a very good deal in Tanzania because it comes standard with 2 buffalo and low trophy fees. A double buffalo hunt in other countries could actually be more.

375Fox said:

I think its reputation is overstated. You can find incredible areas in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique, Caprivi that would compare to the best in Tanzania. It’s just a different country and different experience for those that want it. A 10 day buffalo hunt can actually be a very good deal in Tanzania because it comes standard with 2 buffalo and low trophy fees. A double buffalo hunt in other countries could actually be more.

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Uganda also seems to offer two buffalo on license too? I know that it is a bit of a different hunt as far as the shooting distances and I believe that they are Nile buffalo also?

375Fox said:

I think its reputation is overstated. You can find incredible areas in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique, Caprivi that would compare to the best in Tanzania. It’s just a different country and different experience for those that want it. A 10 day buffalo hunt can actually be a very good deal in Tanzania because it comes standard with 2 buffalo and low trophy fees. A double buffalo hunt in other countries could actually be more.

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Very well said, it just comes down to species you want to hunt. Once you start adding the big cats, elephant, the Maasai species like Lesser Kudu, Geranuk, Fringe Eared Oryx, or specialty PG like Sitatunga, Striped Hyena, etc is when both day rates and total costs start climbing immensely.

I know of a hunter earlier this year who had an absolutely incredible Selous Safari with 4 maybe 5 buffalo, 2 leopards, and almost taking a bonus lion for a fraction of the day rates on this Lion Safari being discussed.

Tdsmith517 said:

Uganda also seems to offer two buffalo on license too? I know that it is a bit of a different hunt as far as the shooting distances and I believe that they are Nile buffalo also?

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You can take two buffalo in most African countries just comes with a different price structure and depends on quota in area. Northern Uganda has a large buffalo quota though and many/most hunters will take two.

Tdsmith517 said:

Uganda also seems to offer two buffalo on license too? I know that it is a bit of a different hunt as far as the shooting distances and I believe that they are Nile buffalo also?

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From my research all Buffalo in Uganda are Nile even if they are not.

318AE said:

It’s a pertinent point. Each concession area has an annual quota per species that cannot be exceeded. The trophy fees go to the central government. It used to be the case that the concession holder (outfitter) had to take at least 50% of the quota, or pay the difference if the area was under hunted. That is likely still the case, but I don’t know for certain.

Given this, the concession holder has a strong incentive to book enough hunts each year to hit at least 50% of the quota. To your point, on the flip side, you want to make sure that the area has enough quota overall that you can fill your license if the right opportunities present themselves.

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I'm not sure what of the trophy fee actually goes to the government. I've looked at trophy fees from multiple outfitters and all of them had different fees, even the concessions next to the one I hunted had different fees. Also, I don't really know what the real cost is of the Premium license upgrade. My outfitter said it was 5K another outfitter said it was 10K. I think it’s really what the market will bear as to what each charges.

375Fox said:

Tanzania is by far the most expensive in general when comparing different countries. They generally cater to a different caliber of clientele, but the country also has some huge areas set aside for hunting. Selous is actually least expensive area to hunt. Maasailand is generally the most expensive.

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Indeed…. I just did it lol…
But I did wait over 20 years to finally pull the trigger

Mtn_Infantry said:

Day rates alone on the lion hunt being discussed exceed $150k before accounting for observers, air charters, gun permits, license, or a single trophy fee.

@kpoynter can correct me if I’m wrong but his 21 Day Buffalo/Leopard/Sitatunga Hunt as a second Hunter on this hunt was likely in the $250-300k range … now add a lion into the mix and increased day rates

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Well… a Lion Hunt is indeed 150k in TZ.
Mine was expensive due to Masailand and combo area etc
Well over 100k yeah.
Charters in TZ are super expensive
Tips for both camps might make your eyes water lol
But yeah with all my trophy fees and charters etc etc… pushing 200k
Not for the faint of heart
Lion would have put me at 250k for sure all in

Mtn_Infantry said:

Very well said, it just comes down to species you want to hunt. Once you start adding the big cats, elephant, the Maasai species like Lesser Kudu, Geranuk, Fringe Eared Oryx, or specialty PG like Sitatunga, Striped Hyena, etc is when both day rates and total costs start climbing immensely.

I know of a hunter earlier this year who had an absolutely incredible Selous Safari with 4 maybe 5 buffalo, 2 leopards, and almost taking a bonus lion for a fraction of the day rates on this Lion Safari being discussed.

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The Masaiiland species were the big draw for me. I felt like I had to hunt there at least once and honestly I’m fortunate to be able to do it obviously
That’s the big draw
I can hunt everything else in a number of places
Honestly…at THESE Prices… one should probably hunt the Bubye Valley and whack a bunch of buffalo too

wesheltonj said:

From my research all Buffalo in Uganda are Nile even if they are not.


I'm not sure what of the trophy fee actually goes to the government. I've looked at trophy fees from multiple outfitters and all of them had different fees, even the concessions next to the one I hunted had different fees. Also, I don't really know what the real cost is of the Premium license upgrade. My outfitter said it was 5K another outfitter said it was 10K. I think it’s really what the market will bear as to what each charges.

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This is a relatively new practice, and I actually recall who started it. Years ago, it seemed all the outfitters just quoted the government rates for licenses, trophy fees and firearm import permits.

These are the fees from 2019. The web site says its current, but it’s not clear to me whether that’s correct.

375Fox said:

I think its reputation is overstated. You can find incredible areas in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique, Caprivi that would compare to the best in Tanzania. It’s just a different country and different experience for those that want it. A 10 day buffalo hunt can actually be a very good deal in Tanzania because it comes standard with 2 buffalo and low trophy fees. A double buffalo hunt in other countries could actually be more.

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I agree for Masailand especially- the hunting is now overrated. It’s just not what it was years ago. Human encroachment, Masai cattle, donkeys and goats, have really, really taken a toll and degraded it severely. It’s almost all GMAs and not GRs.

Masailand remains a beautiful place, with volcanos, waterfalls, soda lakes, cloud forests etc. As Mtn_Infantry pointed out, is the only remaining place to hunt some gazelles, gerenuk etc. If you are traveling with your spouse etc, its also near some of the very best and iconic national parks in Africa. But the hunting, yeah, way past its prime….

I’m not as bullish on the Caprivi either. There seems to be a lot of single species hunts there, that are expensive for what they are. It’s been a very long time since I’ve been, so maybe its better now.

318AE said:

This is a relatively new practice, and I actually recall who started it. Years ago, it seemed all the outfitters just quoted the government rates for licenses, trophy fees and firearm import permits.

These are the fees from 2019. The web site says its current, but it’s not clear to me whether that’s correct.

https://www.tawa.go.tz/storage/app/uploads/public/631/705/790/631705790f07b190667863.pdf

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I have to be honest I don’t know what my license fee was or the parameters of it. I just know what agreed to pay the outfitter and what species we agreed I could hunt. My license could be for 20 buffalo but I paid to hunt one.

Now I would be pissed if I paid to hunt one or more of a species and then when I got there the outfitter said I couldn’t fulfill that even though a legal specimen was in front of us.

Tdsmith517 said:

Aren’t daily rates for DG in TZ like $2500-3000 a day? It seems like they don’t feel the need to fill quota for trophy fees if they are netting $52,500-63,000 in daily rates for a 21 day lion hunt and add on a few trophy fees for animals shot as either bait or add ons. And it’s $60,000-70,000 in a hurry. Seems to me like they are netting some income either way. Now while having unfulfilled tags is just part of hunting, nobody is potentially dropping over a $100,000 to be told that it’s policy to leave half their quota unfulfilled once they arrive. Seems to me that conversation should happen before.

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Looking at Tanzania through an RSA lens can be very confusing - its set up quite differently, in part as its almost all central government owned rather than privately owned, or community owned. Strictly speaking, there aren’t DG daily rates in Tanzania. It’s license based, and even the shortest license includes dangerous game; buffalo.

While it’s very expensive, I don’t think any of these outfitters are actually getting wealthy. The cost to run these remote operations is incredible, and a large cut goes to the government, hopefully for conservation.

The traditional and most common pricing model in Tanzania today is by license duration - 7, 10, 14, 21 - with the license determining what you are eligible to hunt. The price generally includes everything but trophy fees, charter fees and tips; it usually includes the hunting license, firearm import permit, dip and pack, game scout fees, airport meet and greet etc.

But yeah, its really disappointing when you buy a hunt/license and learn the area doesn’t actually have the quota to support it - so to the point of this thread, its good to ask a lot of questions, even to the most established outfitters.

Russ16 said:

I have to be honest I don’t know what my license fee was or the parameters of it. I just know what agreed to pay the outfitter and what species we agreed I could hunt. My license could be for 20 buffalo but I paid to hunt one.

Now I would be pissed if I paid to hunt one or more of a species and then when I got there the outfitter said I couldn’t fulfill that even though a legal specimen was in front of us.

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Yes, that’s my point. You pay a combined price for the hunt, PH, license, import permit, game scout etc etc etc. I’m talking about what the outfitters pay the government, as it drives some of their incentives and behavior.

I know what my license is and the parameters of it etc, but I just like to know that stuff.

318AE said:

. . . While it’s very expensive, I don’t think any of these outfitters are actually getting wealthy. The cost to run these remote operations is incredible, and a large cut goes to the government, hopefully for conservation. . .

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I might disagree with that. There's a Tanzania outfitter that lives near me in a more expensive subdivision and a much expensive house.

wesheltonj said:

I might disagree with that. There's a Tanzania outfitter that lives near me in a more expensive subdivision and a much expensive house.

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Interesting…. I would say that those who control these areas and have the means for the required investments are…independently wealthy from some other business or family.
Tanzania areas do, however, bring in more revenue than say a good Zim area. Costs aren’t that different. No telling what it takes in bribe money to control these areas

kpoynter said:

Interesting…. I would say that those who control these areas and have the means for the required investments are…independently wealthy from some other business or family.
Tanzania areas do, however, bring in more revenue than say a good Zim area. Costs aren’t that different. No telling what it takes in bribe money to control these areas

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I have no idea what any outfitter takes home. But I know Robin Hurt made bough somehow to buy a nice property in Namibia. He’s going great conservation work there but got the money to buy it somehow. I’m not accusing him of anything but know he has it.

Russ16 said:

I have no idea what any outfitter takes home. But I know Robin Hurt made bough somehow to buy a nice property in Namibia. He’s going great conservation work there but got the money to buy it somehow. I’m not accusing him of anything but know he has it.

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The Hurt family had/has land holdings in the rift valley of Kenya dating back over 100 years.

Many Kenyans downsized/sold out and moved to more stable political climates since 1964.

Pardon my ignorance, but I have to ask.
Generally, safari day rate scale is divided on plains game day rate, and dangerous game day rate.

Lets say, now some cats are on the list, and bait needs to be provided.
Fine, lets add bait animals as extra cost on DG day rate. No problem.

So, why most often then not, if multiple DG species are added the day rate increases significantly especially on dangerous game?
For example - Buffalo day rate - one cost, buffalo and leopard make higher day rate, buffalo, elephant and leopard higher day rate, etc?

I found extreme example.
While day rates run at 2-3k pppd, same highly reputable outfitter offers lion hunt at 5k pppd? And same outfitter does not have 100% success rate, even on most common DG species like buffalo. (been reported on forum)

The way how I see it - this distribution of risk of failed expedition is shifted to client exclusively, and when no game is taken, unpaid trophy fee is just a minor loss for outfitter.
This opens a window of opportunity and incentive on "shady outfitter".

Well, it is take it or leave it, I guess, as long as there are clients to pay for it.

But..... I wonder what is "official" reasoning behind this?