Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

Rare Breed · Saturday at 6:37 PM

AndyMac said:
I was the Videographer who was present in the blind when this whole situation took place. I have never had a Professional hunter make a decision on turning a Lion of that caliber down based on stains on the back of its legs. Staining on the back of a lions legs are NOT an indication of its dominance, rather a clear sign of maturity. All male lions start to mark a territory when they come of age, weather it is thier territory or not. That is how territorial disputes happen with lions.
Leaving the hunt early was not due to the lion alone, it was the final straw for the client on an absolute cluster of a hunt. We did not once, in 2 weeks even go to a sitatunga Mashan to look for Sitatunga which was the main reason the client chose Luganzo. We had a leopard hit one of our baits and were then taken to 2 wrong bait sights before finally arriving at the bait which had actually been hit by the leopard. It took 5 hours to build a blind the following day and then tried to walk into the blind which was 24 yards from the bait and got lost in the dark because they had not marked our walk in. This obviosly alerted the leopard to our presence as it would no longer feed while we were there. You say Morgan very likely made the right decision? Then why in a meeting with Derek Hurt after the hunt, did he admit to my Brother, the client and myself that the he would have shot the lion. I trued to query Morgan on his instagram post with the lion which was CLEARLY not the same lion we had at the bait, and instead of a constructive discussion, he deleted all my posts and pictures and then he blocked me from his instagram. That my friend, is shady.

Hard to argue with a man that WAS THERE! i would not hunt with this outfitter after hearing this first hand encounter

Betterinthebush · 2026-11-01T02:00:41-0600

jswitzer said:
This is like an ESPN camera man telling a head coach of an NFL team what to do.

I like analogies and use them to draw attention to and illuminate a point to readers. But, respectfully, this is an example of a not very well constructed analogous comparison.

A better analogy would be; “This is like an ESPN camera man putting on his pads and replacing an injured Tom Brady in the 4th quarter of a wildcard game, while being down by two points with 30 seconds left to play”

Because that is exactly what @AndyMac did here, go to the 17:10 mark:

I defy anyone to show me an ESPN camera man that has equal knowledge and skill of a coach or player compared to these guys who record dangerous game safaris. The couple I’ve met have the eyes, composure and experience on par with many (if not any) PH (‘s).

Sabre · 2026-11-01T02:22:12-0600

AndyMac said:
I was the Videographer who was present in the blind when this whole situation took place. I have never had a Professional hunter make a decision on turning a Lion of that caliber down based on stains on the back of its legs. Staining on the back of a lions legs are NOT an indication of its dominance, rather a clear sign of maturity. All male lions start to mark a territory when they come of age, weather it is thier territory or not. That is how territorial disputes happen with lions.
Leaving the hunt early was not due to the lion alone, it was the final straw for the client on an absolute cluster of a hunt. We did not once, in 2 weeks even go to a sitatunga Mashan to look for Sitatunga which was the main reason the client chose Luganzo. We had a leopard hit one of our baits and were then taken to 2 wrong bait sights before finally arriving at the bait which had actually been hit by the leopard. It took 5 hours to build a blind the following day and then tried to walk into the blind which was 24 yards from the bait and got lost in the dark because they had not marked our walk in. This obviosly alerted the leopard to our presence as it would no longer feed while we were there. You say Morgan very likely made the right decision? Then why in a meeting with Derek Hurt after the hunt, did he admit to my Brother, the client and myself that the he would have shot the lion. I trued to query Morgan on his instagram post with the lion which was CLEARLY not the same lion we had at the bait, and instead of a constructive discussion, he deleted all my posts and pictures and then he blocked me from his instagram. That my friend, is shady.

With everything that transpired on this hunt, everything that has come to light after, the attempt to save face and double down by the PH, how is this not fraud?

Serious question, if you sell lion hunts, but never (or almost never) let clients shoot legal mature males, when does that just reach the threshold for actual criminal fraud. Because to me, it sure feels like that.

AndyMac · 2026-11-01T02:33:51-0600

Sabre said:
With everything that transpired on this hunt, everything that has come to light after, the attempt to save face and double down by the PH, how is this not fraud?

Serious question, if you sell lion hunts, but never (or almost never) let clients shoot legal mature males, when does that just reach the threshold for actual criminal fraud. Because to me, it sure feels like that.

What i find the most disturbing, is even after meeting with one of the directors and clearly explaining the series of events leading to the clients decission to leave early, no form of compensation was offered. He also admited that he would have shot the cat, but then praised the decision not to shoot the lion on the same post that multiple comments were deleted and blocked... I just dont understand that...

Russ16 · 2026-11-01T04:53:56-0600

Betterinthebush said:
I like analogies and use them to draw attention to and illuminate a point to readers. But, respectfully, this is an example of a not very well constructed analogous comparison.

A better analogy would be; “This is like an ESPN camera man putting on his pads and replacing an injured Tom Brady in the 4th quarter of a wildcard game, while being down by two points with 30 seconds left to play”

Because that is exactly what @AndyMac did here, go to the 17:10 mark:

I defy anyone to show me an ESPN camera man that has equal knowledge and skill of a coach or player compared to these guys who record dangerous game safaris. The couple I’ve met have the eyes, composure and experience on par with many (if not any) PH (‘s).

That’s not the only time either. Plenty of videos where things go pear shaped and he or Dan step in and help. Whether it is first aid or like the leopard above.

kpoynter · 2026-11-01T08:26:02-0600

jswitzer said:
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Are we really going to pretend like that male didn't just get collared?

What is your point ? A Male….got collared here
“The Male”? Not so sure
But what point are you making about this male now being collared?
That the collar now retroactively confers some form of credibility to the decision?
That collaring a male Lion in a 2M acre concession is a good thing? Or a bad thing?
That having NGOs working within the hunting area (and very possibly contributing big money) is a conflict of interest?
I believe this is year 4 perhaps without taking a Lion from this concession. In that time (if it is 4 years) there would have been 16 on quota.
But I can tell you with certainty that the belief was that 8 would have been taken of the 16 due to careful management
8….not zero
2 per year…not zero…

Sabre · 2026-11-01T10:59:29-0600

kpoynter said:
What is your point ? A Male….got collared here
“The Male”? Not so sure
But what point are you making about this male now being collared?
That the collar now retroactively confers some form of credibility to the decision?
That collaring a male Lion in a 2M acre concession is a good thing? Or a bad thing?
That having NGOs working within the hunting area (and very possibly contributing big money) is a conflict of interest?
I believe this is year 4 perhaps without taking a Lion from this concession. In that time (if it is 4 years) there would have been 16 on quota.
But I can tell you with certainty that the belief was that 8 would have been taken of the 16 due to careful management
8….not zero
2 per year…not zero…

And if this is accurate, there should seriously be an investigation into the operation. How many "lion hunts" have they sold? If it is 8 similar hunts to the person talked about on this thread, that's $500,000 - $800,000+, right? And still selling hunts there.

mark-hunter · 2026-11-01T13:13:53-0600

500 to 800k is certainly tempting.

TTundra · 2026-11-01T13:40:07-0600

One could easily suppress public outcry under the guise of 'conservation'. Likely governmental ad much as civil. Too taboo to speak out once its deemed the "C" word...

I do wonder how many unfilled tags have happened under RHS and Morgan since the NGO wires started flowing?

As others have said, especially as someone who is looking at TZ outfits for myself, this outfitter and PH wont be considered for my hunts.

Sad situation for all involved and the hunting community.

Mtn_Infantry · 2026-11-01T15:41:34-0600

TTundra said:
One could easily suppress public outcry under the guise of 'conservation'. Likely governmental ad much as civil. Too taboo to speak out once its deemed the "C" word...

I do wonder how many unfilled tags have happened under RHS and Morgan since the NGO wires started flowing?

As others have said, especially as someone who is looking at TZ outfits for myself, this outfitter and PH wont be considered for my hunts.

Sad situation for all involved and the hunting community.

I believe RHS has publicly said they intentionally only hunt 30-50% of their total quota allocation. I see nothing wrong with them doing that, especially since they advertise that, so long as they’re not booking hunts with the intention of not taking or letting a client take what, or some of what their license allows, so long as that area has quota.

Example - 21 Day License has 4 Buffalo, with many other species showing multiples. If that area shows clients can take Buffalo or the other species, the client intends on taking 4 or multiples only to learn while there can’t then I feel like that’s an issue, that should’ve been discussed before booking. Same goes for Zebra, Grants, Tommy, Wildebeest, etc. If they’re on quota and on ones license, and a legal animal is spotted the hunter wants to take they should be free to without issue unless they know going into the hunt, at the time of booking.

I’m not saying RHS does any of the above but this IS a question I now know to ask prior to booking in Tanzania.

kpoynter · 2026-11-01T15:43:11-0600

Sabre said:
And if this is accurate, there should seriously be an investigation into the operation. How many "lion hunts" have they sold? If it is 8 similar hunts to the person talked about on this thread, that's $500,000 - $800,000+, right? And still selling hunts there.

800k+++
But..in fairness I would say the real measure is the cost difference between a Leopard/Buff full 21 day vs. Lion/Leopard Buff etc.
Still a whole lotta day rates collected rather than say trophy fees based on success.

318AE · 2026-11-01T15:53:47-0600

Mtn_Infantry said:
I believe RHS has publicly said they intentionally only hunt 30-50% of their total quota allocation. I see nothing wrong with them doing that, especially since they advertise that, so long as they’re not booking hunts with the intention of not taking or letting a client take what, or some of what their license allows, so long as that area has quota.

Example - 21 Day License has 4 Buffalo, with many other species showing multiples. If that area shows clients can take Buffalo or the other species, the client intends on taking 4 or multiples only to learn while there can’t then I feel like that’s an issue, that should’ve been discussed before booking. Same goes for Zebra, Grants, Tommy, Wildebeest, etc. If they’re on quota and on ones license, and a legal animal is spotted the hunter wants to take they should be free to without issue unless they know going into the hunt, at the time of booking.

I’m not saying RHS does any of the above but this IS a question I now know to ask prior to booking in Tanzania.

It’s a pertinent point. Each concession area has an annual quota per species that cannot be exceeded. The trophy fees go to the central government. It used to be the case that the concession holder (outfitter) had to take at least 50% of the quota, or pay the difference if the area was under hunted. That is likely still the case, but I don’t know for certain.

Given this, the concession holder has a strong incentive to book enough hunts each year to hit at least 50% of the quota. To your point, on the flip side, you want to make sure that the area has enough quota overall that you can fill your license if the right opportunities present themselves.

Tdsmith517 · 2026-11-01T15:56:08-0600

Aren’t daily rates for DG in TZ like $2500-3000 a day? It seems like they don’t feel the need to fill quota for trophy fees if they are netting $52,500-63,000 in daily rates for a 21 day lion hunt and add on a few trophy fees for animals shot as either bait or add ons. And it’s $60,000-70,000 in a hurry. Seems to me like they are netting some income either way. Now while having unfulfilled tags is just part of hunting, nobody is potentially dropping over a $100,000 to be told that it’s policy to leave half their quota unfulfilled once they arrive. Seems to me that conversation should happen before.

Sabre · 2026-11-01T15:58:52-0600

kpoynter said:
800k+++
But..in fairness I would say the real measure is the cost difference between a Leopard/Buff full 21 day vs. Lion/Leopard Buff etc.
Still a whole lotta day rates collected rather than say trophy fees based on success.

I think it's fair to look at the total and not the difference if most the people (which I assume is the case) booked a lion combo hunt, because those people likely wouldn't have booked at all if it weren't for the draw of the lion.

I do see what you are saying as well.

375Fox · 2026-11-01T16:00:43-0600

Tdsmith517 said:
Aren’t daily rates for DG in TZ like $2500-3000 a day? It seems like they don’t feel the need to fill quota for trophy fees if they are netting $52,500-63,000 in daily rates for a 21 day lion hunt and add on a few trophy fees for animals shot as either bait or add ons. And it’s $60,000-70,000 in a hurry. Seems to me like they are netting some income either way. Now while having unfulfilled tags is just part of hunting, nobody is potentially dropping over a $100,000 to be told that it’s policy to leave half their quota unfulfilled once they arrive. Seems to me that conversation should happen before.

That would be on the low end. They are $2500-$3500 for 10 day buffalo safaris depending on outfitter and area. 21 day full bag safaris reach $250k in day rates depending on the outfitter. Most will fall in the $100k-$150k range.

TTundra · 2026-11-01T16:03:26-0600

Mtn_Infantry said:
I believe RHS has publicly said they intentionally only hunt 30-50% of their total quota allocation. I see nothing wrong with them doing that, especially since they advertise that, so long as they’re not booking hunts with the intention of not taking or letting a client take what, or some of what their license allows, so long as that area has quota.

I do feel this is still one of the burning questions from this hunt.

Or at very least, now an attempt to cover up a now very public poorly PH'd hunt. One cannot ignore the multitude of grievances despite one being monumental in fiduciary consequences.

375Fox · 2026-11-01T16:04:01-0600

318AE said:
It’s a pertinent point. Each concession area has an annual quota per species that cannot be exceeded. The trophy fees go to the central government. It used to be the case that the concession holder (outfitter) had to take at least 50% of the quota, or pay the difference if the area was under hunted. That is likely still the case, but I don’t know for certain.

Given this, the concession holder has a strong incentive to book enough hunts each year to hit at least 50% of the quota. To your point, on the flip side, you want to make sure that the area has enough quota overall that you can fill your license if the right opportunities present themselves.

Unless the money comes from other sources outside hunting. That appears a strong possibility in this case.

Tdsmith517 · 2026-11-01T16:04:51-0600

375Fox said:
That would be on the low end. They are $2500-$3500 for 10 day buffalo safaris depending on outfitter and area. 21 day full bag safaris reach $250k in day rates depending on the outfitter. Most will fall in the $100k-$150k range.

Thank you for the information. I have just always seen the $2,500-3,000 number tossed around. I have never looked into a full bag rate for any country especially TZ.

375Fox · 2026-11-01T16:07:24-0600

Tdsmith517 said:
Thank you for the information. I have just always seen the $2,500-3,000 number tossed around. I have never looked into a full bag rate for any country especially TZ.

Tanzania is by far the most expensive in general when comparing different countries. They generally cater to a different caliber of clientele, but the country also has some huge areas set aside for hunting. Selous is actually least expensive area to hunt. Maasailand is generally the most expensive.

Mtn_Infantry · 2026-11-01T16:09:03-0600

318AE said:
It’s a pertinent point. Each concession area has an annual quota per species that cannot be exceeded. The trophy fees go to the central government. It used to be the case that the concession holder (outfitter) had to take at least 50% of the quota, or pay the difference if the area was under hunted. That is likely still the case, but I don’t know for certain.

Given this, the concession holder has a strong incentive to book enough hunts each year to hit at least 50% of the quota. To your point, on the flip side, you want to make sure that the area has enough quota overall that you can fill your license if the right opportunities present themselves.

Exactly, I wouldn’t want to hunt an area that has say 16 buffalo on annual quota + 4 Leopards and 1 Lion BUT the outfitter also books straight buffalo hunts in addition to increase their daily rate revenue and restricts the cat hunters they’ve book from even having the opportunity at taking 4 buffalo should they wish not need for bait.

If you take the example above (fictional quota numbers) that would mean 8 Cape Buffalo, 2 Leopards, and 1 Lion (every other year). It’s also possible in Tanzania to buy Multiple Licenses. So on a 21 Day Hunt, one could buy their hunting companion a 10 Day Companion License (includes 2 Buffalo), or could buy them a 14 Day (3 Buffalo) or multiple licenses. Booking a 7, 10, or 14 Day Buffalo Hunt on top of 2 Cat Hunters means someone is intentionally being restricted.

Again, not saying RHS does this but in researching Tanzania Hunting I’ve learned there are outfitters who do this. @318AE as you and I have discussed, I know of 2 separate groups (multiple) hunters each (not referenced in my OP) who’ve hunted Maasailand for Buffalo/PG in a concession that has an annual quota of 1 or 2 Buffalo and hardly any Buffalo because they’re further up the mountain in a different concession but occasionally stray/wander into that area.

Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

Rare Breed

Betterinthebush

Sabre

AndyMac

Russ16

kpoynter

Sabre

mark-hunter

TTundra

Mtn_Infantry

kpoynter

318AE

Tdsmith517

Sabre

375Fox

TTundra

375Fox

Tdsmith517

375Fox

Mtn_Infantry

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