Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

Mtn_Infantry said:
• It’s a PH/Guide imposed standard not outfitter imposed (nothing wrong with this)
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I am on page 5 so far catching up for the day. I have agreed with very much of what you have said in the thread, but I strongly disagree with this.

There is definitely something wrong with a PH having a strong moral objection to taking a legal mature representation of a species when that's what the client paid for, and the client was not informed of this in advance.

If I pay for a hunt and at the time of the shot the PH tells me he only takes world record #1 scoring animals and I'm not allowed to shoot, there is something wrong with that. It's no different outcome than whatever extra-legal reason he/we come up with. The result is the same, hunter paid for a specific type of legal hunt, PH decided he would impose extra rules at the time of shot. It's not ok.
 
Sabre said:
I am on page 5 so far catching up for the day. I have agreed with very much of what you have said in the thread, but I strongly disagree with this.

There is definitely something wrong with a PH having a strong moral objection to taking a legal mature representation of a species when that's what the client paid for, and the client was not informed of this in advance.

If I pay for a hunt and at the time of the shot the PH tells me he only takes world record #1 scoring animals and I'm not allowed to shoot, there is something wrong with that. It's no different outcome than whatever extra-legal reason he/we come up with. The result is the same, hunter paid for a specific type of legal hunt, PH decided he would impose extra rules at the time of shot. It's not ok.
Click to expand...
There is a definite learning experience from this for all of us. There are questions now I wouldn’t have really thought to ask…because after 20 years I thought I (like many of us with experience here) “knew the rules”.
So if you had told me… “we only hunt mature males that have to be clearly 6+ years old”..I’d say..”yep..got it “
If you told me “we don’t hunt pride males” I would say “sure..that’s standard practice”
If you told me “a lion hit this bait…we need to check and make sure he doesn’t have any females or cubs with him” I’d say…”yep…standard practice”
If you told me “we don’t want to hang baits anywhere near where we saw that pride” I’d say “yep…makes total sense… we don’t want to waste time feeding that pride knowing we can’t hunt a male if he is with them…nor waste that time and bait”
I would never have thought to say….”so… what happens if we get a big mature male on bait… we do indeed make sure that he is alone. We verify he is a beautiful male and clearly legal… are we going to pass on him if we even suspect he COULD be a pride male even if there is zero evidence or reason other than he is a prime male?… or… are we REALLY only hunting POST PRIME 8-10 year+ old males ONLY? Because…ONLY a 8-10+ Post prime male can meet this criteria
OR… a Coalition of 2-3 Prime Males that are mature but may also be questionable as to whether they are of legal age??????
I’ll damn sure make sure I know the criteria very clearly from here out (and I have current plans to hunt a Lion in TZ in a couple of years…I’m 99.9% sure I know the PHs opinion and answer…dude is a killer. But I’ll be making 100% sure.
Like I said… I THOUGHT knew the rules of the game.
 
Sabre said:
I am on page 5 so far catching up for the day. I have agreed with very much of what you have said in the thread, but I strongly disagree with this.

There is definitely something wrong with a PH having a strong moral objection to taking a legal mature representation of a species when that's what the client paid for, and the client was not informed of this in advance.

If I pay for a hunt and at the time of the shot the PH tells me he only takes world record #1 scoring animals and I'm not allowed to shoot, there is something wrong with that. It's no different outcome than whatever extra-legal reason he/we come up with. The result is the same, hunter paid for a specific type of legal hunt, PH decided he would impose extra rules at the time of shot. It's not ok.
Click to expand...
 
kpoynter said:
There is a definite learning experience from this for all of us. There are questions now I wouldn’t have really thought to ask…because after 20 years I thought I (like many of us with experience here) “knew the rules”.
So if you had told me… “we only hunt mature males that have to be clearly 6+ years old”..I’d say..”yep..got it “
If you told me “we don’t hunt pride males” I would say “sure..that’s standard practice”
If you told me “a lion hit this bait…we need to check and make sure he doesn’t have any females or cubs with him” I’d say…”yep…standard practice”
If you told me “we don’t want to hang baits anywhere near where we saw that pride” I’d say “yep…makes total sense… we don’t want to waste time feeding that pride knowing we can’t hunt a male if he is with them…nor waste that time and bait”
I would never have thought to say….”so… what happens if we get a big mature male on bait… we do indeed make sure that he is alone. We verify he is a beautiful male and clearly legal… are we going to pass on him if we even suspect he COULD be a pride male even if there is zero evidence or reason other than he is a prime male?… or… are we REALLY only hunting POST PRIME 8-10 year+ old males ONLY? Because…ONLY a 8-10+ Post prime male can meet this criteria
OR… a Coalition of 2-3 Prime Males that are mature but may also be questionable as to whether they are of legal age??????
I’ll damn sure make sure I know the criteria very clearly from here out (and I have current plans to hunt a Lion in TZ in a couple of years…I’m 99.9% sure I know the PHs opinion and answer…dude is a killer. But I’ll be making 100% sure.
Like I said… I THOUGHT knew the rules of the game.
Click to expand...

I suppose we can all learn something from this, but in another sense, what are we learning?

At a certain point the onus is on the PH or outfitter to tell us as hunters if they have rules, ideals, or morals that are outside the norm that would affect our hunt.

We as hunters, for the most part, already take the vast majority of liability. Which is somewhat expected since we are dealing with animals, nature, and weather. If we book 3 years out and show up and the weather is trash the whole hunt, we eat that. If we show up and there was a fire that went through that year and destroyed the area, we eat that. If we show up and animals just won't cooperate, we eat that. On and on and on, we eat that. Because we love hunting and we go into it with an understanding that hunting isn't a guarantee.

But at a certain point, a PH and Outfitter need to be responsible for the parts that are in their control. There are so many things we can't control in hunting. But if an outfitter is going to make my hunt extremely hard or impossible beyond all the uncontrollable things, based on his own ideals, he damn sure should have told me that before accepting an obscene amount of money for my hunt.

Because, yeah, we can all now ask a question relevant to this topic we didn't know existed. But where does it stop? How many millions of questions can you come up with that shouldn't need to be asked, but you could? If you go through all of them, any reasonable outfitter/PH is going to think you are insane.
 
kpoynter said:
are we REALLY only hunting POST PRIME 8-10 year+ old males ONLY? Because…ONLY a 8-10+ Post prime male can meet this criteria
OR… a Coalition of 2-3 Prime Males that are mature but may also be questionable as to whether they are of legal age??????
I’ll damn sure make sure I know the criteria very clearly from here out (and I have current plans to hunt a Lion in TZ in a couple of years…I’m 99.9% sure I know the PHs opinion and answer…dude is a killer. But I’ll be making 100% sure.
Like I said… I THOUGHT knew the rules of the game.
Click to expand...
Wait now I'm spit balling more questions since the goal post could once again move...

What if a post prime 8-10+ year old male is observed still with a Pride?
It happens especially with coalitions .... Scarface, Loonkito and Old Ginger all of whom lived into their mid to late teens. Old Ginger was overthrown in Zambia around 14 by a coalition of his own sons and allowed back into the pride until he was 17yo and suddenly disappeared

Don't most PH's and Outfitters normally have thousands of photos of different animals in their area especially lions?
Since none of the above was expressly discussed, what evidence was presented during the hunt that this legal lone, potential pride male was in face a pride male?
Did the PH show anything to support his statement at that time or even back at camp that night to remove any doubt that male was indeed a pride male? Maybe a photo of the male with the pride (not one taken months after and all opinions and evidence showing its different deleted, and posters blocked).
Could he have not been a pride male at the time of the hunt and later became one? Would that have caused an entire generation of his non-existent offspring to be killed via infanticide?
Was there a discussion about the dark guard hairs he had and how they made him a pride male or why the dark guard hairs didn't apply to all the other photos and videos sent in the year or more leading up to the hunt because each of them also had dark guard hairs?
Was any evidence shown that the pride (witnessed in another area of the concession far away from the bait a day prior) didn't have a male in their company?
Was any evidence shown that there wasn't actually a coalition of males and he rotated in and out with other males? If this is/was the case would removing this one male in the coalition accellerate the infanticide issue?
 
Mtn_Infantry said:
Was any evidence shown that there wasn't actually a coalition of males and he rotated in and out with other males? If this is/was the case would removing this one male in the coalition accellerate the infanticide issue?
Click to expand...

I will weigh in on this, but this starts to get to the theater of the absurd. I think when you get to this many What Ifs, we arent really looking for an ethical reason to kill a lion but now looking for reason on why we shouldnt because of an unknown dynamic in nature.

What if he is a pride male and has an evil brother named Scar, who teams up with Hyenas to overthrow the pride and fails to kill the son and the son is raised by a warthog. Should we not hunt warthogs because they could raise Simba and he is the true heir to the throne and the pride?
 
Never interested in hunting African lion so not much opinion. But, when you can find ads for CBL with catalogs showing pics of individually ID’d animals who have been to the beauty shop, it should be obvious you are in “unstable” territory when planning any lion hunt and of course true for any high end, high demand, big trophy fee, marquee animal. Not sure what to make of PH turning down certain large trophies as seems the point in this discussion?? Being honest here, but I’m not fully following all the concerns as stated in the OP and some follow up posts in this thread. Outside looking in …On one hand by turning down mature male lion and believing it a “pride” male lion maybe seriously trying to do legit conservation by protecting a cohesive, established pride for future reproduction and population enhancement OR saving a particular large trophy male for some other client who has already prepaid trophy fee at 3x or more standard rate. Who knows?… I’ll stay out of that guessing game. I’ve always talked to outfitters, guides and PHs directly and used gut instinct when planning guided hunts. I’d much rather hunt with PH or guide who is ultra conservative and may honestly turn down a trophy if there is good or legal reason compared to a PH or guide who gets “excited” and encourages you to shoot first legal animal while “acting” a show on how good it is…. usually claiming it a nice example or older animal past it’s prime with less trophy quality/size or some such deceit.

In the end, “You pays you money and you takes you chances”.
 
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Mtn_Infantry said:
Good luck with your hunt!

I’m sure you won’t have any issues. Out of curiosity who did you select as an outfitter/PH? You’ve had some awesome hunts and reports, would love to hear how/why you went through the vetting/selection process on this on
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I don’t want to hijack the thread so sent you a DM. Let me know if you don’t receive it.
 
Mtn_Infantry said:
Wait now I'm spit balling more questions since the goal post could once again move...

What if a post prime 8-10+ year old male is observed still with a Pride?
It happens especially with coalitions .... Scarface, Loonkito and Old Ginger all of whom lived into their mid to late teens. Old Ginger was overthrown in Zambia around 14 by a coalition of his own sons and allowed back into the pride until he was 17yo and suddenly disappeared

Don't most PH's and Outfitters normally have thousands of photos of different animals in their area especially lions?
Since none of the above was expressly discussed, what evidence was presented during the hunt that this legal lone, potential pride male was in face a pride male?
Did the PH show anything to support his statement at that time or even back at camp that night to remove any doubt that male was indeed a pride male? Maybe a photo of the male with the pride (not one taken months after and all opinions and evidence showing its different deleted, and posters blocked).
Could he have not been a pride male at the time of the hunt and later became one? Would that have caused an entire generation of his non-existent offspring to be killed via infanticide?
Was there a discussion about the dark guard hairs he had and how they made him a pride male or why the dark guard hairs didn't apply to all the other photos and videos sent in the year or more leading up to the hunt because each of them also had dark guard hairs?
Was any evidence shown that the pride (witnessed in another area of the concession far away from the bait a day prior) didn't have a male in their company?
Was any evidence shown that there wasn't actually a coalition of males and he rotated in and out with other males? If this is/was the case would removing this one male in the coalition accellerate the infanticide issue?
Click to expand...
There is an NGO there studying cats. They were there the day we got to camp. Nice folks and not anti hunting.
We were the first hunters there for the year (which had advantages and I took many great animals)
They had cameras but they don’t share any location for any pics they capture. We only put cameras on baits.
This was the only Lion on bait or camera in two weeks (I caught a young male passing a Leopard bait technically). Therefore the only Lion on camera from 2026 at that point.
We saw two prides (or perhaps one twice) while there between the two vehicles.
Corey could speak to earlier pictures shared of example shooters perhaps.
One, to my recollection, was substantially similar to this one. Actually I’d say it looked more like the “other one” with darker mane posted on IG this week (from memory)
I feel like he looked at some 2025 pics of known Lions.
I’ve never heard of a PH waiting on an angle to look for literal piss stains like you would for a Leopards balls.
You look hard for other markers for signs of age….thats what you spend your time looking for
I guess if I was the PH and I felt that way I wouldn’t called it in this manner
I MIGHT….MIGHT have said…hey.. I think he may be a pride male. (Maaaayyyy Be) I need to keep him on bait for another day to make sure. If he comes back tomorrow without the ladies…. We smoke him…
That would have been understandable (sort of).
We can’t over regulate ourselves like this. Cats breed quite well… it’s nature. There was no downside to harvesting this Mature male…none.
Pretending otherwise is fantasy IMO. These cats have 2M acres there to frolic that’s full of game. And they have taken zero in I believe 3-4 years now maybe (a fact that wasn’t known and I’m still unclear about… he as told once in camp success rate was about 30%!!!. That was a real oh shit moment
We were told MULTIPLE times about how they only hunt 50% of the quota…they don’t overhunt it (which they definitely don’t). They get 4 Lions a year on quota and only hunt 2 to ensure quality and population structure. I would have never thought from the conversations I had ( I wasn’t focused on Lion but had there have been quota I would have) this was an issue.
It’s a great area…and I had a great safari. There are plenty of Leopard there. Turns out, not that many buffalo. Another outfitter told us later very few buffalo are taken there each year. I don’t know why. I would actually assume the Lions keep them pretty hammered.

When you know you sell two big money Lion Hunts a year…and they are big money… you know these are THE TWO anchor hunts financially for the entire concession. The cat hunts and money are what pay for everything. Period…
So you absolutely have a responsibility to manage the animals and have stewardship to ensure quality. That’s awesome and I respect it greatly.
You also have a strong responsibility to the clients and, most importantly, the two anchor hunts per year you conduct. Those two hunts pay the bills. Then the guys like me who had full bag sans lion in two areas. The focus to simply pass that animal completely ignores (if not betrays) the responsibility to the client (and for the 50th time…especially based on sheer conjecture)
I would recommend this area and RHS…my safari was top notch,
But I wouldn’t hunt Lion there. You might as well just pay Bubye Valley money and shoot a monster.
Niassa..l
Other TZ areas..
Matetsi…wherever.
 
I appreciate discussions like this. I’ve only been to Africa a handful of times, and learn more and more each time.

For most of my hunts, I’ve used an American based booking agent which I really like. I’ve learned to trust them as well. I don’t think they’re a sponsor so I won’t say who it is. But they’re one of the bigger names

Some of the questions I’ve learned to ask or research if hunting outside of South Africa.

What’s the best time of year?
Is the company I’m hunting with the concession holder?
Has the PH I’m hunting with hunted this concession before? How recently?
How big is the concession?
Are the animals on the concession or are they going back and forth to another concession or a park?

I can’t think of anymore off the top of my head. But these are big ones to me.

I’ve been told too many stories about things that directly relate to those questions above.
 
kpoynter said:
There is an NGO there studying cats. They were there the day we got to camp. Nice folks and not anti hunting.
We were the first hunters there for the year (which had advantages and I took many great animals)
They had cameras but they don’t share any location for any pics they capture. We only put cameras on baits.
This was the only Lion on bait or camera in two weeks (I caught a young male passing a Leopard bait technically). Therefore the only Lion on camera from 2026 at that point.
Click to expand...
A NGO in a hunting camp studying lions just before a lion hunt is like 6 teenagers breaking out an ouija board under a full moon on all hallows eve. Sounds like the script for a predictably bad horror flick.

I’m disheartened for you all over this whole affair.
 
Sabre said:
Because, yeah, we can all now ask a question relevant to this topic we didn't know existed. But where does it stop? How many millions of questions can you come up with that shouldn't need to be asked, but you could? If you go through all of them, any reasonable outfitter/PH is going to think you are insane.
Click to expand...
Well said.

I had a pleasant and humorous exchange with a PH from Zim who is going to be helping me out with my own personal cat challenge. I had to know his reaction to all this. While he doesn’t have a dog in this fight, he was clear about having a relationship with the client and videographer in the past and he didn’t hold back with me what he would have done were he PHing that hunt.

I asked him about guard hairs, stains on legs, cameras, drug roads, indicators of pride male status, and on, and on… to the point that we agreed; the technology, information and data we as hunters and PH’s enjoy today has made incredible improvements in lion habitat, overall population, and far better quality of mature male lion takes than 20 (and certainly) 30 years ago.

Asking, or pressuring, of a PH to go to absurd levels of identification to satisfy someone or some organization’s notions on the task is ceding their own (the PH’s and outfits) credibility and legitimacy as conservationists themselves. The disgraceful and disingenuous part of all this to me is; were it not for the hunters and outfitters the NGO’s wouldn’t have a place to do a study in first place outside the limits of a national park.

We both had a good laugh and the smart ass in me couldn’t help but ask: “What is going to be asked of you guys next? Find out the lion’s favorite color?!”
 
Betterinthebush said:
A NGO in a hunting camp studying lions just before a lion hunt is like 6 teenagers breaking out an ouija board under a full moon on all hallows eve. Sounds like the script for a predictably bad horror flick.

I’m disheartened for you all over this whole affair.
Click to expand...
I took oppositie approach and failed in my attempt.
Could I participate in operation of non hunting NGO? That was the idea.

I was looking for options and offers to vita dart the rhino.
There are hunting outfitters who offers that.

But there are other rhino non hunting conservation organizations who have to tranq the rhino, for relocation, cutting horn, blood sampling, this and that.

I contacted them as well, "offering my services should they need some help".

But they said they have their own people to do that.
Two groups dont mix.

So, I am in agreement with you.
 
mark-hunter said:
I took oppositie approach and failed in my attempt.
Could I participate in operation of non hunting NGO? That was the idea.

I was looking for options and offers to vita dart the rhino.
There are hunting outfitters who offers that.

But there are other rhino non hunting conservation organizations who have to tranq the rhino, for relocation, cutting horn, blood sampling, this and that.

I contacted them as well, "offering my services should they need some help".

But they said they have their own people to do that.
Two groups dont mix.

So, I am in agreement with you.
Click to expand...
There is a lot more NGO involvement in hunting areas than you might realize. I’ve hunted two areas with significant NGO investment. One was a $1 million a year contribution for anti-poaching and reserve development. Their goals are not always conflicting with hunting. In both cases, the hunting operator was in control of area and very grateful for the added help. The one in particular has extremely professional highly trained people on the ground. It wasn’t as simple as an amateur asking to volunteer.

However, a lion research NGO seems like a possible conflict of interest during a lion hunt. Especially if it puts potential funding to area/operator at risk. The client already paid daily rates. The NGO money comes with conditions (assuming there is money).
 
Mtn_Infantry said:
Wait now I'm spit balling more questions since the goal post could once again move...

What if a post prime 8-10+ year old male is observed still with a Pride?
It happens especially with coalitions .... Scarface, Loonkito and Old Ginger all of whom lived into their mid to late teens. Old Ginger was overthrown in Zambia around 14 by a coalition of his own sons and allowed back into the pride until he was 17yo and suddenly disappeared

Don't most PH's and Outfitters normally have thousands of photos of different animals in their area especially lions?
Since none of the above was expressly discussed, what evidence was presented during the hunt that this legal lone, potential pride male was in face a pride male?
Did the PH show anything to support his statement at that time or even back at camp that night to remove any doubt that male was indeed a pride male? Maybe a photo of the male with the pride (not one taken months after and all opinions and evidence showing its different deleted, and posters blocked).
Could he have not been a pride male at the time of the hunt and later became one? Would that have caused an entire generation of his non-existent offspring to be killed via infanticide?
Was there a discussion about the dark guard hairs he had and how they made him a pride male or why the dark guard hairs didn't apply to all the other photos and videos sent in the year or more leading up to the hunt because each of them also had dark guard hairs?
Was any evidence shown that the pride (witnessed in another area of the concession far away from the bait a day prior) didn't have a male in their company?
Was any evidence shown that there wasn't actually a coalition of males and he rotated in and out with other males? If this is/was the case would removing this one male in the coalition accellerate the infanticide issue?
Click to expand...
It’s the same concept as hunting dagga boys and deliberately staying away from the herd. The reality is that old bulls move in and out of the herd all the time. Just because a bull is alone doesn’t mean he’s no longer breeding, and just because he’s with the herd doesn’t mean he’s still actively breeding. Where you find him at any given time isn’t necessarily an indication of his age, breeding status, or contribution to the herd
 
375Fox said:
There is a lot more NGO involvement in hunting areas than you might realize. I’ve hunted two areas with significant NGO investment. One was a $1 million a year contribution for anti-poaching and reserve development. Their goals are not always conflicting with hunting. In both cases, the hunting operator was in control of area and very grateful for the added help. The one in particular has extremely professional highly trained people on the ground. It wasn’t as simple as an amateur asking to volunteer.

However, a lion research NGO seems like a possible conflict of interest during a lion hunt. Especially if it puts potential funding to area/operator at risk. The client already paid daily rates. The NGO money comes with conditions (assuming there is money).
Click to expand...
I believe it represents a significant conflict of interest if money is involved from the NGO.
I believe their likely financial contributions are significant. Great…
But don’t tell me that doesn’t influence this situation. Maybe quite significantly…
The comeback would be…. They don’t mind hunting at all and they know it’s a necessary part of the deal. That’s true…
But also don’t tell me that wouldn’t HEAVILY influence a situation like this…where the NGO gets pictures from the outfitter to compare against their data (which they 100% would)
And said NGO goes…oh my… that’s George… George is subject Lion #3…George hangs out with Sheila, Sherry, and Mary…he sired Leo, Harry, and George II… oh dear….
Oh my… please don’t pull my $1,000,000 7 year grant to anti-poaching and the two new high tech predator drones with thermal imaging you are donating.
Well… you guys REALLY must be more careful…we must be on the same page about Conservation principles
 
DieJager said:
Thanks for sharing this. My first hunt abroad taught me to not believe everything that is said and to do your own research.

If I was the client of mister Potter I would sue him into oblivion. Hope anyone considering to hunt with this guy will run when he sees this story. Unbelievable.
Click to expand...
I can see it’s frustrating for the client, but does the Ph not have final say on the animal that is taken? And then the client can choose to take or decline the shot
 
Muntjacer23 said:
I can see it’s frustrating for the client, but does the Ph not have final say on the animal that is taken? And then the client can choose to take or decline the shot
Click to expand...
I normally say I'll agree with you. I honestly don't know if your read all the pages on this thread and if not I'll suggest you will do that because I think you find the answer why this situation is different.

I could try to make the case but a few members with much more knowledge and in the know have already did that and with my English I would probably butcher it.
 
Muntjacer23 said:
I can see it’s frustrating for the client, but does the Ph not have final say on the animal that is taken? And then the client can choose to take or decline the shot
Click to expand...
Normally, I would agree with you.

But what happens in a situation where the PH's personal ethics go beyond what the law requires? Is the PH allowed to impose those ethics on the client? And without any discussion in advance?

I would suggest that if the PH has personal ethics which go beyond what the law requires, the PH must make that clear to the client in advance, and if the client doesn't agree, then either the PH needs to go along with the client or the client needs a different PH.
 
Hank2211 said:
Normally, I would agree with you.

But what happens in a situation where the PH's personal ethics go beyond what the law requires? Is the PH allowed to impose those ethics on the client? And without any discussion in advance?

I would suggest that if the PH has personal ethics which go beyond what the law requires, the PH must make that clear to the client in advance, and if the client doesn't agree, then either the PH needs to go along with the client or the client needs a different PH.
Click to expand...
DieJager said:
I normally say I'll agree with you. I honestly don't know if your read all the pages on this thread and if not I'll suggest you will do that because I think you find the answer why this situation is different.

I could try to make the case but a few members with much more knowledge and in the know have already did that and with my English I would probably butcher it.
Click to expand...
Having now caught up on the whole thread. It does now sound like the PH’s ethics go above and beyond the legal requirement for lion hunting. And whilst that on its own isn’t a problem and is arguably admirable that they are so committed to conservation, it sounds like it wasn’t communicated to the client prior to booking, which makes it a problem.

And has now left the client to feel like any legal lion sighted might not be deemed suitable by the ph.

I will also add I have never hunted lions so I don’t have the same experience as many on this thread, but these are just my thoughts from what I’ve read
 
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