The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

Ontario Hunter said:
It's all ivory hunter Wally Johnson used and he shot thousands of elephant. I haven't read Capstick's book but I'm sure more than a few of them were charging. :D
Click to expand...
Blah blah blah......same for Bell.....how many of the elephant they wounded and lost did they write about?????
How many of them where while guiding paying clients and having to keep them in one piece when the shit hits the fan....wake up your tea is getting cold.....
Next you will say elephant have been killed with 22lr as well as the world record gruzzly bear.....
 
IvW said:
Blah blah blah......same for Bell.....how many of the elephant they wounded and lost did they write about?????
How many of them where while guiding paying clients and having to keep them in one piece when the shit hits the fan....wake up your tea is getting cold.....
Next you will say elephant have been killed with 22lr as well as the world record gruzzly bear.....
Click to expand...
I guess he would not have lived to old age if his 375 rifle was just wounding a lot of elephants. Wounding them is not a recipe for success as an ivory hunter. It's a means for a very short career ... and he had a very long one. You can do the math. :D
 
IvW said:
All boils down to what calibers you can handle with compitance.....if it is 375H&H so be it......if you are a PH and that is your max you may want to stick to plains game....

For a visiting hunter it is most important to be able to handle your chosen rifle type(double or bolt) and caliber to make the first shot count....all you need to do....if it is 375 H&H so be it....

If anybody is under the impression that a 375 H&H has the same stopping power/ability than a 500 NE or 500 Jeff on elephant in adverse charging conditions well.....good luck...
Click to expand...
Guav Johnson does alright
 
On my last DG trip to Africa, I took a .375 H&H and .416 Rigby to the range and shot them both without using a bench rest.


I was more accurate with the .416 and couldn't feel the difference in recoil. (As could my son)


The .416 made the trip.

The .375 stayed home.


Bullet placement beats energy (almost) any day, but if you can shoot a more powerful rifle just as accurately, as a less powerful rifle, it's a "no-brainer."
 
My apologies to everyone, but I want to keep a leash on this thread and not let it go hayware or open a pandora's box. As I said please do not start a slug fest, we are here for views and thoughts and not decide right vs wrong...

IvW said:
if you are a PH and that is your max you may want to stick to plains game....
Click to expand...

So In line to what you have said @IvW respectfully, there are quite a few successful PH's that carry a 375 H&H. In the last HSC there was an outfitter from Mozambique or Tanzania I do not remember and I wont take the name as they are not a sponsor here. I started a chat with their head PH for Elephant and asked him which rifle he carries and in which calibre. He said a 375 H&H. I was little surprised at first but then he explained the straight line penetration that a 300 grain solids from a 375HH is far superior to any other bigger caalibres and he loves it. He has been doing this for almost 20 years...
I'm not challenging your thought, but I do know that there are many PH's who are very comfortable guiding with a 375 H&H. What do you think of these PH ?

If anybody is under the impression that a 375 H&H has the same stopping power/ability than a 500 NE or 500 Jeff on elephant in adverse charging conditions well.....good luck...

Nobody is claiming a .375 H&H magically becomes a .500 NE because the shooter has good intentions.

My point is simply that shot placement, bullet construction, familiarity with the rifle, and the ability to put that shot where it needs to go count for an enormous amount. A hunter or PH using a .375 H&H may also adopt a somewhat different strategy and engagement distance than someone carrying a .500.

Different tools, different capabilities, different margins but that doesn't make the .375 H&H an unsuitable elephant rifle.

After all, the rifle you can shoot accurately, confidently and repeatedly is worth considerably more than the rifle that looks impressive sitting in the gun rack or in the camp..
 
Gomer said:
This is where I see vastly differing philosophies. In the US, we only have a few animals that fight back. None of them are particularly tough skinned and succumb fairly easy. Hence, the 223 on moose crowd. They lament about recoil and swear there is no way anyone can shoot a 30-06 accurately because of fierce unmitigated recoil.

But when you talk to guys who travel and hunt animals such as cape buffalo, hippo, elephant, etc., they seem to like a lot more oomph. Recoil is a fact of life and they want to be able to get the job done. I have always leaned into the oomph crowd.

But there has to be a balance. You can’t hit well if you don’t shoot well. You won’t shoot well if you don’t practice. Bullet technology can only make up for so much, especially if you have to use solids.

I found out at an early age that I couldn’t be a fighter pilot. I still like airplane movies and aviation. Not enough to make a pair of wings and jump off a cliff just to say I flew. If you can’t, you shouldn’t.
Click to expand...
I agree with you. On of the hunting problems in fl is any cf is ok for deer and hogs.
17 hornet 5.7 ext and it seams like every time a new small cartridge is introduced there a rush of deer hunter using it.

I think you need to use what is appropriate for what your doing.
I tried the 223 onece because of a bad shoulder. I put a big scope on it used the best or supposed best bullets you could get I payed 50$ something for a box of 223 with the x bullet. Trying to do the best I could with such a small round. It did not take long for me to decide if I could not shoot something bigger I would not hunt any more.


And now for Bell
I know it’s popular to say Bell did this it should be fine for everyone.
It’s not that’s the same as saying the average guys should be able to do what the worlds best do. Folks it ant the same.
Supposed bell could shoot 10 running zebra all in the head with out a miss?
And birds out of the air regularly with a rifle.
I have never hunted with any one with that kind of skill.
 
Safari Dave said:
Bullet placement beats energy (almost) any day, but if you can shoot a more powerful rifle just as accurately,its a "no-brainer"
Click to expand...
and reload as fast and carry all day everday.
 
RR 314 said:
Well, perhaps not incapable—more likely improbable. :-). A perfect brain shot or spine shot with a .375 will stop anything in short order. However, a larger bullet, with more kinetic energy in slightly more marginal zones may be the difference between an oh shoot moment and a closed casket.

That is all I have to say about that.

Forrest
Click to expand...
Well you had said not stopping so incapable :)
 
Ontario Hunter said:
Your friend needs to watch more YouTube videos. The buffalo I see getting shot to pieces are often as not due to clients shooting double gun cannons. Recently I saw two videos like that. One the bull was shot seven times (allegedly!) and the other one the PH claimed was shot NINE times. I mean really, how can any living thing be shot eight times with a 500 and still have something left to stand up with? Lots of videos of clients putting away their bulls with one or two shots from 375 H&H.

I suspect the fella who goes after buffalo with a mega cannon too often also carries a false sense of security. Yeah, this gun will kill a buffalo no matter what. Whereas the hunter with the 250 gr bullet loaded in 375 expects he MUST put that first shot where it counts. And he usually does. Or he declines to shoot if the situation isn't perfect.

I killed three buffalo with four shots. Two were with 375 and quite light bullets. Last one was 400 gr 404 @ 2200 fps which is hardly a cannon load. I think there's a pattern.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of an instance where a 600 NE was used by a very famous man to shoot a buffalo over a hill. He probably shot 9 or 10 rounds I think.
 
dchum said:
Guav Johnson does alright
Click to expand...
Yes he does hunting in Cameroon does not require more than a 375H&H.....in zzim he prefers 470 NE and 458 Lott.....
 
SStomcat said:
My apologies to everyone, but I want to keep a leash on this thread and not let it go hayware or open a pandora's box. As I said please do not start a slug fest, we are here for views and thoughts and not decide right vs wrong...



So In line to what you have said @IvW respectfully, there are quite a few successful PH's that carry a 375 H&H. In the last HSC there was an outfitter from Mozambique or Tanzania I do not remember and I wont take the name as they are not a sponsor here. I started a chat with their head PH for Elephant and asked him which rifle he carries and in which calibre. He said a 375 H&H. I was little surprised at first but then he explained the straight line penetration that a 300 grain solids from a 375HH is far superior to any other bigger caalibres and he loves it. He has been doing this for almost 20 years...
I'm not challenging your thought, but I do know that there are many PH's who are very comfortable guiding with a 375 H&H. What do you think of these PH ?

If anybody is under the impression that a 375 H&H has the same stopping power/ability than a 500 NE or 500 Jeff on elephant in adverse charging conditions well.....good luck...

Nobody is claiming a .375 H&H magically becomes a .500 NE because the shooter has good intentions.

My point is simply that shot placement, bullet construction, familiarity with the rifle, and the ability to put that shot where it needs to go count for an enormous amount. A hunter or PH using a .375 H&H may also adopt a somewhat different strategy and engagement distance than someone carrying a .500.

Different tools, different capabilities, different margins but that doesn't make the .375 H&H an unsuitable elephant rifle.

After all, the rifle you can shoot accurately, confidently and repeatedly is worth considerably more than the rifle that looks impressive sitting in the gun rack or in the camp..
Click to expand...
Then we are on the same page.....

The ph you refer to is from Mozambique.....he only believes in 375 H&H for everything....
 
Flbt said:
And now for Bell
I know it’s popular to say Bell did this it should be fine for everyone.
It’s not that’s the same as saying the average guys should be able to do what the worlds best do. Folks it ant the same.
Supposed bell could shoot 10 running zebra all in the head with out a miss?
And birds out of the air regularly with a rifle.
I have never hunted with any one with that kind of skill.
Click to expand...
Respectfully that was not the idea if that is what you inferred. Bell or anyone else for that matter using a PG calibre rifle and bullet, to hunt Elephant was meant to convey that knowing the anatomy of the animal coupled with shot placement can go a long way.
 
Always the same tired 100 year old discussion...

Bottom line #1: the first shot is the one that counts, place it in the right place.

Bottom line #2: on DG, shoot as big a gun as you can shoot reliably.

Bottom line #3: do not confuse killing and stopping. As the old guys used to say "it is the dead ones that kill you".

Bottom line #4: each have their own personal preferences. Same as to the answer to the famous question: which DG is the most dangerous? The real answer is "the one that caught you".

Bottom line #5: ivory hunting realities of the 1900's are irrelevant to the client hunting realities of the 2000's. I am tempted to add: so are client hunting realities of the 1950's.
 
Last edited:
Ontario Hunter said:
Your friend needs to watch more YouTube videos.
Click to expand...
The individual in question formed this option primarily from watching YouTube videos of Dangerous Game hunts. It's also from our experience and that of several PH's we have hunted with.

Ontario Hunter said:
The buffalo I see getting shot to pieces are often as not due to clients shooting double gun cannons. Recently I saw two videos like that. One the bull was shot seven times (allegedly!) and the other one the PH claimed was shot NINE times. I mean really, how can any living thing be shot eight times with a 500 and still have something left to stand up with? Lots of videos of clients putting away their bulls with one or two shots from 375 H&H.
Click to expand...
Plenty of videos and hunt reports of experienced hunters putting an animal on the ground with one shot from a big bore bolt gun. Not all boomers are Double Rifles
Ontario Hunter said:
I suspect the fella who goes after buffalo with a mega cannon too often also carries a false sense of security.
Click to expand...
This is purely assumption.
Ontario Hunter said:
Yeah, this gun will kill a buffalo no matter what.
Click to expand...
Nobody of any real hunting experience believes this type of thing. On the other hand, I see far more hunters on this forum and others, that truly believe a 223 Remington with a77gr bullet kills as well as a 300mag because lack of recoil allows them to place shots more precisely.
Ontario Hunter said:
Whereas the hunter with the 250 gr bullet loaded in 375 expects he MUST put that first shot where it counts. And he usually does. Or he declines to shoot if the situation isn't perfect.
Click to expand...
Why would a hunter shooting a 416, 458 or 470 have a mindset any different than this?
Ontario Hunter said:
I killed three buffalo with four shots. Two were with 375 and quite light bullets. Last one was 400 gr 404 @ 2200 fps which is hardly a cannon load. I think there's a pattern.
Click to expand...
So far my score on Buffalo is one shot per Buffalo, DRT. So theoretically, my 450 Rigby is the better choice. :cool:
 
One Day... said:
Always the same tired 100 year old discussion...

Bottom line #1: the first shot is the one that counts, place it in the right place.

Bottom line #2: on DG, shoot as big a gun as you can shoot reliably.

Bottom line #3: do not confuse killing and stopping. As the old guys used to say "it is the dead ones that kill you".

Bottom line #4: each have their own personal preferences. Same as to the answer to the famous question: which DG is the most dangerous? The real answer is "the one that caught you".

Bottom line #5: ivory hunting realities of the 1900's are irrelevant to the client hunting of the 2000's. I am tempted to add, so are client hunting realities of the 1950's.
Click to expand...
There you go, this is how I ended my post -
What say you, gentlemen?
Are you trading the heavy "safety net" of a punishing .458 for the laser-like placement of a manageable .375?

Let’s hear your thoughts below!Be gentle. My shoulder isn't the only thing that's sensitive.
 
SStomcat said:
Respectfully that was not the idea if that is what you inferred. Bell or anyone else for that matter using a PG calibre rifle and bullet, to hunt Elephant was meant to convey that knowing the anatomy of the animal coupled with shot placement can go a long way.
Click to expand...
Yes but that’s only one part of it.
You have to know the anatomy you have to have the nerve to be that cool under pressure and you have to have the natural ability.
One with out the ability to do the rest is usless.
 
The whole theory of a stopping rifle is one that can turn a buffalo, elephant, hippo, or rhino, even if the shot isn't perfect. Most likely, a .30-06 with FMJs will perfectly kill any of these from a frontal or side brain shot. Miss by a little, and the .30-06 will likely have little effect.
 
Folks,

I've put more than a few hunters on their first DG safari. When they ask about what to bring for rifles I tell them to bring a scoped 375 of some ilk. A 375 will do it all. I think starting off with a 375 is great and if then you want to move up the ladder fine but don't do it just because Johnny that's been on one buffalo hunt used a cannon.

I had a safari newbie and his Dad book a safari. The son asked me about what he shoud bring admitting he had little expereince with recoil. He and his Dad had never shot anything other than 308s. I told him to get a 375 and have a muzzle break installed. he said that would be "too gay". He ended up taking a straight out of the box CZ in 416 Rigby. He wounded and lost 3 buffalo. The Dad never got to shoot as he wanted the son to kill a buffalo first and they just ran out of time. Of course with that result there were a litany of complaints ranging from the camp location not being scenic to the lack of buffalo.

Mark
 
I wish I were, but I'm actually not surprised, by "hunters" who, IMO, have not had enough experience with their "home animals."

I have experienced many similar situations on guided fishing trips.

Folks who don't even know how to catch a bluegill on a worm under a bobber, book a flyfishing trip for trout and somehow expect to be successful???

We can usually pull off a fish or two with someone who doesn't know what they are doing, but if they did we could catch 25+ every day.
 
SStomcat said:
There you go, this is how I ended my post -
What say you, gentlemen?
Are you trading the heavy "safety net" of a punishing .458 for the laser-like placement of a manageable .375?

Let’s hear your thoughts below!Be gentle. My shoulder isn't the only thing that's sensitive.
Click to expand...

The right question...

I do not want to come across as rude, and I am really not, but you are not asking the right question, and your two options are not mutually exclusive, unless the entire thread is click bait, in which case I have zero interest...

The real question is not what do you choose between -- I am going to make it short -- killing or stopping? recoil or accuracy? The real question on DG is: "what is the biggest gun you can shoot reliably?"

Because to those who shoot the .458 well, (they have generally learned proper shooting form; proper recoil control; proper practice; and proper DG rifle weight), a well-handled .458, even Lott, heavy recoil is not "punishing", and it can absolutely place shots "laser-like"...

So, again, what is the biggest gun you can shoot reliably; where is your personal recoil control threshold? And I could add: what do you practice with? and how often? If you are comfortable at .375 level, shoot a .375 on DG. If you are comfortable at .458 level, shoot a .458 on DG.

Zero Blaser .458 Lott 500 gr TSX.JPG

.458 Lott 500 gr 100 yard group (from a Blaser R8) standing from the sticks (bench groups serve no purpose past sighting, there are darn few benches in the jesse).
"Laser-like" enough for me around 1 MOA, at least the same killing power, and certainly a whole lot more stopping power than a .375.
Achieved through proper rifle weight, learning recoil control, and years of practice.


PS: do not assume that every hunter or PH of fame was/is comfortable with the big calibers, or could/can afford one. I know a number of today's PHs would cannot afford to shoot anything bigger than a CZ .375, and I know a few honest enough to say that they can't shoot the .458 or even the .416. Guess what, all of the above "choose" the .375 ;)

PS 2: most folks who can shoot well the .40+ and .45+ started by learning to shoot the .375 well. There is a lot of wisdom in this reality... ;)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Members online

... and 1059 more.
Total: 627,191 (members: 1,109, guests: 626,082)

Forum statistics

Threads
70,437
Messages
1,576,225
Members
170,536
Latest member
KAOLavina1
 

 

 

Proudly sponsored by

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

H
Hornedfrogbbq wrote on Rhoyland4's profile.
Do you mind me asking what auction you are referencing? I'm not in the market for any of those rifles...just curious.

Frosty in Fort Worth
•••
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
Getting some culling done!

•••
K_P
K_P wrote on Buckleyguy12's profile.
Good morning from Montana.

I'm looking at a post from 2018 where you were looking for a lefty Winchester in .375 H&H Magnum. I'm selling mine. My email is [redacted] in the event that you're still searching for a unicorn.

Best,

Kelly Palmer
•••
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
Gents, if you book and pay your deposit before the end of this year , you can have the bigger cull package for the 2026 price! https://www.africahunting.com/threa...griffiths-safaris-starting-at-us-2-560.96285/
•••
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
I am currently in Northern Cape scouting a hunting area, we will have lots of amazing hunting opportunities for 2027! I will post updated available dates soon!
•••

Share this page

 
Top