Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

I will be hunting lion in Zimbabwe next year. I've sent a link to this thread to my outfitter and PH.

Thanks to all - this has been an excellent and useful discussion.
 
Mtn_Infantry said:
Someone else can correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe there is a written law about not shooting a pride male. I believe the law only states the minimum age.

In this example all parties unanimously agreed it more than met the legal standard for age and that is documented on video. Neither side is arguing that, it’s honestly not a topic of debate and has zero bearing on what transpired and vetting an outfitter.

Because of that I’m not sure a wildlife offense could be applied. There might be other laws though, and it would’ve definitely impacted the rest of the hunt.

I give kudos to the hunter for not doing that.
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I don’t know if it’s law, but I’ve seen on outfitter price lists no pride males can be shot. Which I think we’d all agree, especially if known up front. Question becomes what defines a pride male? I would expect many PHs to look for reasons it’s not a pride male. This case seems PH was looking for reasons it is a pride male.
 
Red Leg said:
A bit of personal guidance I have always tried to follow is to offer observations - positive or negative - based solely upon my personal experiences. The moment we enter the world of what we heard, what we were told, or what we inferred, we are on very treacherous ground indeed. I will admit to have violated that admonition more than once - even on this site - and always to my regret.
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It’s true advice, but a lot of this in reference to the lion goes back to the discussion we had a few days ago about area vs PH for leopard hunting. I still think area is most important, but calling all the recent lion references with the PH likely would have shown a pattern too. The public image created isn’t always the reality.
 
375Fox said:
I don’t know if it’s law, but I’ve seen on outfitter price lists no pride males can be shot. Which I think we’d all agree, especially if known up front. Question becomes what defines a pride male? I would expect many PHs to look for reasons it’s not a pride male. This case seems PH was looking for reasons it is a pride male.
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I agree and that was what I wanted to post/highlight initially. Nothing wrong with either approach as long as BOTH hunter and PH are on the same page and that should be established WELL before the hunt is contracted. I never thought I’d need to ask what defines a pride male and can that be applied to a lone male. I’m venturing to guess many others wouldn’t have thought to asks that either.

To take it one step further EVERY PH I know or have ever hunted with has thousands of photos of different animals in their concession at their finger tips. If there’s a pride of lions they have countless photos. Leopards they have photos and spot analysis on them. If the PH thinks it’s a pride male great, show me the photos and videos of it with the pride. Make me believe there’s a chance with something more than dark hairs that I saw on photos of other lions you’ve been texting me for a year or more.

In this instance there was excellent photo/video of the lone male at the bait to compare PH photos back to. Maybe it’s me as a hunter but if the PH can’t at least create a shadow of a doubt then we shouldn’t be having that conversation. The hunter or other parties present would need to comment if that was done in this instance.
 
Mtn_Infantry said:
Someone else can correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe there is a written law about not shooting a pride male. I believe the law only states the minimum age.

In this example all parties unanimously agreed it more than met the legal standard for age and that is documented on video. Neither side is arguing that, it’s honestly not a topic of debate and has zero bearing on what transpired and vetting an outfitter.

Because of that I’m not sure a wildlife offense could be applied. There might be other laws though, and it would’ve definitely impacted the rest of the hunt.

I give kudos to the hunter for not doing that.
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Yeah, I don't know how it would be handled. If it it is on tape that you asked and the PH says not to shoot and you are still shooting it. I do not want to find out how creative an African government can be.
 
Red Leg said:
A bit of personal guidance I have always tried to follow is to offer observations - positive or negative - based solely upon my personal experiences. The moment we enter the world of what we heard, what we were told, or what we inferred, we are on very treacherous ground indeed. I will admit to have violated that admonition more than once - even on this site - and always to my regret.
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Probably wise advice. My original post wasn’t meant to be a 2nd hand hunting report. I tried to refrain from giving too much insight that I had.

It was meant to further the discussion of vetting outfitters and provide some examples as discussed in the leopard thread. I think many can say they never thought to ask about pride males without a pride. Info on this hunt and details I was given from one side told started coming out as the focus shifted to one example and calling certain things out.

I believe you might even be able to add a past example that occurred here on AH. Maybe a newer Namibian outfitter borrowing lodge and trophy photos from a leopard outfitter you speak extremely highly of (rightly so) to advertise the new outfitters leopard hunts even though they were only allowed one hunt there. The outfitter you like did NOTHING wrong in this instance.
 
Hank2211 said:
I will be hunting lion in Zimbabwe next year. I've sent a link to this thread to my outfitter and PH.

Thanks to all - this has been an excellent and useful discussion.
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Good luck with your hunt!

I’m sure you won’t have any issues. Out of curiosity who did you select as an outfitter/PH? You’ve had some awesome hunts and reports, would love to hear how/why you went through the vetting/selection process on this one.
 
Mtn_Infantry said:
This goes back to the topic of selecting outfitters, cancellation hunts, and asking for references after a hunt is booked.

This might be a little controversial and I think it’s up to each of us to decide where the line is, but in the last 24 Hours I’ve seen multiple examples of what I’d consider shady practices. I’m not picking on anyone, I don’t have the full story from all sides, but I think this is going to be eye opening for some. I’m sure I can find another dozen examples if I look hard enough and I left out several of the reoccurring names.

1) JSB Safaris in Namibia
A Craig Boddington Endorses Outfitter advertises a Croc Hunt in Namibia.
View attachment 796528

Looks good right? This Outfitter/PH is using a doctored photo to advertise his hunts. Cliff Walker (not a Namibian PH) hunted this Croc and here’s his photo.
View attachment 796529

Look close you can even see their shadows weren’t edited out just the people. I know this happens regularly @375Fox had one of his photos borrowed by a low rent South African PH, I’ve had mine borrowed, and know several other have too. Wouldn’t know this if Cliff hadn’t called this out.

To me, this raises the question of did Boddington actually vet this outfitter? Did Craig Boddington know? How much involvement does he have or is he licensing out his name to a marketing company? Should this automatically preclude this outfitter from being a CB Endorsed Outfitter? How much value does one now place on a CB Endorsed Outfitter or is that something an outfitter can pay for?



Im prefacing this next one with they’re A VERY well known and long respected name in the industry (with a recent great hunting report on here). I don’t have 100% of the story but it’s obviously being shaped differently by each side.

2) Morgan Potter - Robin Hurt Safaris
Books a 21 Day Tanzania Lion Hunt. During the hunt, there’s some controversy about the only Lion that was hitting bait over the last 14 Days. What I heard was it was first called too young, and later a pride male (no pride in photos) based on dark marks on the back leg (which indicate it’s mature and CAN be a pride male).

Morgan recently made a post on social media about pride males, citing this incident and saying it’s the same male.
View attachment 796543View attachment 796544View attachment 796545

If you were following along after this post was made you’d have seen posts of the lion from this hunt, as video taped by one of the top videographers in Africa, who’s probably been on and a part of more lion hunts then any active African PH today. Stating it’s not the same lion (missing scar in leg, mane and face are different, trail cam photos are well over 50km away from this area). As well as comments from other very well respected Tanzanian PH’s like Quintin from Kilombero North Safaris who essentially argues Morgan’s decision not to shoot a legal lion on the assumption of it being a pride male when there’s zero evidence of a pride or it being a pride male is tantamount to theft. I couldn’t get all the comments as they were quickly deleted, but you get the point.View attachment 796549View attachment 796550
View attachment 796552
Backstory I was also told (after the hunt) RHS has only killed 1 Lion on this concession over the last several years, despite showing the client photos of numerous “shooter” male lions. They didn’t disclose that, didn’t disclose the info that this isn’t a great area for lions with no real resident pride, also didn’t discuss their thoughts on Pride Males. Essentially it’s more of a fringe portion of territories and ranges. Additionally after the hunt, the other PH in camp, as well as one of the Hurts said it was a legal male and they’d have shot it.

#3 Reward Sibanda - Adventure Hunts Zimbabwe
Posts a clients 40lb trophy bull elephant.
View attachment 796558

The issue here is the out of skull ivory he’s advertising isn’t the same bull. Big bodied bull, likely 35-45yo BUT there are known size references in the photo a future hunter can use, in addition to some of the marks and stains.
View attachment 796556

#4 Giles Allcock of Shaw & Hunter Safaris (TZ)
Outfitter contracts a booking agent to sell a Tanzania Buffalo Hunt Package. We’ll negate the fact the booking agent hadn’t hunted with the outfitter when initially marketing it, but unsuccessfully hunts it prior to the clients arrival. View attachment 796582

The Client(s) (AH members) show up and are told by the concession holder and the contracted PH’s there are no buffalo in this concession too many Maasai and cattle.

#5 *** Forum Sponsor ***
Outfitter is misrepresenting their hunting area and trophy quality with photos that aren’t theirs, of an area and lodge that isn’t theirs.

These are just a handful of examples that I’ve seen or know of, with first 4 being extremely recent. To me this highlights the importance of vetting your outfitter and asking a variety of questions not just the standard ones. Hear what they’re saying and be adaptive to their responses. Make sure you and your PH mesh and have similar thoughts. It also underscores how important checking references is within the research process.
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Morgan Potter is a close friend of mine. While that is the case, I can look at a situation and admit when one of my friends or I has done something wrong and is at fault. In this instance, I will vouch for Morgan's integrity and ethics. He's a good man driven by doing the right thing in the field. Oftentimes, that can conflict with other PHs and occasionally with the clients. Robin Hurt is also a man of integrity and morals. The OP said he doesn't have Morgan's side of the story. I would think that is paramount before making a post that might damage a man's career and reputation. I have talked to Morgan about this situation, and there is more to the story than has been reported. Such is the case in any dispute. I also disagree with Morgan being lumped in with the other PH/Outfitters you referenced, who seemed to have intentionally misrepresented things to potential clients. That's different than the issue at hand with Morgan.
 
Nothing is preventing him from weighing in here.

hwr239 said:
Morgan Potter is a close friend of mine. While that is the case, I can look at a situation and admit when one of my friends or I has done something wrong and is at fault. In this instance, I will vouch for Morgan's integrity and ethics. He's a good man driven by doing the right thing in the field. Oftentimes, that can conflict with other PHs and occasionally with the clients. Robin Hurt is also a man of integrity and morals. The OP said he doesn't have Morgan's side of the story. I would think that is paramount before making a post that might damage a man's career and reputation. I have talked to Morgan about this situation, and there is more to the story than has been reported. Such is the case in any dispute. I also disagree with Morgan being lumped in with the other PH/Outfitters you referenced, who seemed to have intentionally misrepresented things to potential clients. That's different than the issue at hand with Morgan.
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This will be more in the “vetting” of an outfitter but to me more about the PH assigned to my hunt.
I believe on a specialized hunt such as cats, big elephant or sitatunga. I would ask about the density of desired game in the area but MOST importantly the amount of experience the PH has with that game.
 
Hank2211 said:
I will be hunting lion in Zimbabwe next year. I've sent a link to this thread to my outfitter and PH.
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Let us know how they responded.
 
hwr239 said:
Morgan Potter is a close friend of mine. While that is the case, I can look at a situation and admit when one of my friends or I has done something wrong and is at fault. In this instance, I will vouch for Morgan's integrity and ethics. He's a good man driven by doing the right thing in the field. Oftentimes, that can conflict with other PHs and occasionally with the clients. Robin Hurt is also a man of integrity and morals. The OP said he doesn't have Morgan's side of the story. I would think that is paramount before making a post that might damage a man's career and reputation. I have talked to Morgan about this situation, and there is more to the story than has been reported. Such is the case in any dispute. I also disagree with Morgan being lumped in with the other PH/Outfitters you referenced, who seemed to have intentionally misrepresented things to potential clients. That's different than the issue at hand with Morgan.
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He’s one of your close friends or you are a good client? I see a lot of hunters are very confused on the relationship. I don’t know Morgan Potter’s side of the story. I’ve never met the man, but his post on the topic appear to be trying to showcase his superior ethics and morals at the expense of the client. $100k easily ruins friendships. I think there are other ways he could distinguish himself from the average PH. This is a situation I hope I’ll never find myself in.
 
Perhaps the best practice and lesson to be learned from any of the examples in this thread is to solicit references here, on AH, for a potential hunt, either by thread reply or DM. Some hunts go great, and some don’t, and I doubt many outfitters will give you references from the most challenging hunts, although those might be the most valuable at avoiding mistakes.

I had a poor experience with a Tanzania outfitter, that was in part do to relying too heavily on a name/reputation and not better questions and research myself. I later learned other clients, who clearly were not a reference given by the outfitter, had a similar expectations and experience in the same area.

The areas are often changing quickly, the PHs the outfitter contracts with can change seasonally, and client expectations of a good hunt vary widely. There is a lot to consider and a tremendous amount of information available here.
 
hwr239 said:
Morgan Potter is a close friend of mine. While that is the case, I can look at a situation and admit when one of my friends or I has done something wrong and is at fault. In this instance, I will vouch for Morgan's integrity and ethics. He's a good man driven by doing the right thing in the field. Oftentimes, that can conflict with other PHs and occasionally with the clients. Robin Hurt is also a man of integrity and morals. The OP said he doesn't have Morgan's side of the story. I would think that is paramount before making a post that might damage a man's career and reputation. I have talked to Morgan about this situation, and there is more to the story than has been reported. Such is the case in any dispute. I also disagree with Morgan being lumped in with the other PH/Outfitters you referenced, who seemed to have intentionally misrepresented things to potential clients. That's different than the issue at hand with Morgan.
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I've said over and over I don't have Morgan's personal side of this story, and mentioned it more than once in my original post, that I only had one side of the story.
I've also said and will say again "Shady" is probably the wrong word choice for this specific example. I've repeatedly said I do not think this was done intentionally or with malice to the hunter. I believe Morgan to be a great PH and one who cares immensely about the animals and their preservation.

I also tried to give Morgan and Robin Hurt Safaris as well as their long standing reputation some credit and preface what I was saying as as what gave me pause and would make me ask some additional questions if booking a lion hunt. Going back to my messages that day with the Hunter, I said on more than one occasion that doesn't sound like Morgan & RHS, and that I'd have expected differently from them (based on the great reports I've heard from multiple hunters). Knowing the side of the story I know, I raised some questions, but what got me was the removal of differing posts and opinions, plus the denial of doing it to one. I again standby my assertion and belief what we have is a misalignment of goals between hunter and PH, as well as a clear miscommunication between them, that I BELIEVE goes back to even before the hunt began.

It is my opinion this is something that needs to be shown/discovered in the vetting process. Everyone who knows Morgan (including the hunter and their hunting partner) has attested to Morgan being extremely conservation minded. In this type of scenario (especially when were talking about well over sig figures in just day rates) I believe the PH must be abundantly clear in their standards and where the bar is set. For me as a perspective client looking into a lion hunt, and spending that sum of money, what I've taken away from this that I need to understand the country's legal requirements, the outfitters requirements, and the PH's requirements potentially down to the "T" or "P" in this case.
Since you know the RHS operation if you've had a chance to ask if the other PH on the hunt commented about if they'd have shot, or if the Hurt's after seeing the footage and visiting the client at their hotel 2 days in a row said they would shot that lion. You don't need to post that publicly, welcome to DM me.


I think I posted elsewhere in the thread but I think Morgan would be an awesome person to sit around the campfire with after a hunt and talk about conservation with. I don't know that I'd necessarily be welcome to do it after this thread (and I can't afford it), but I think I'd hunt Plains Game and Buffalo with him. When it comes to Lion I don't know that he's the PH for me. The day rates alone on this hunt exceed what I make in a year. That doesn't account for bait, trophy fees, or tips. If I'm making that kind of investment (like my previous and future hunts) I'm going to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible. Not in a way that crosses any legal boundaries, but with a PH who has a loser definition of a pride male that doesn't include an unaccompanied lone male, on the fringe of a concession where lone males were stated to be nomads.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it; it is possible for a prime aged male to be a nomad and a post breeding age male to have never been a pride male. It's also possible that a prime aged male (legal and over 6), may not yet have challenged or taken over a pride.
 
I’m not offering my innocence or guilt to anyone mentioned in this thread because I don’t know the facts. Nonetheless, I like these type of threads to learn what “potential” issues a hunter might face on an extremely high dollar overseas hunt well beforehand. Great communication points and possible clauses to include before signing a finalized hunt contract.

A similar information-type thread appeared a couple of months ago regarding a hunter and Lefol Safaris in Central African Republic. That hunt and the logistics thereafter turned into a nightmare for the hunter. Lefol was eventually expelled from SCI.

Best of luck to all this season and happy hunting to all, TheGrayRider a/k/a Tom.
 
Mtn_Infantry said:
I think I'd hunt Plains Game and Buffalo with him
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For what it is worth nothing in this thread has changed my opinion on that. He is a good PH and Hurt is a great outfit. I don't think I would hunt Lion with him due to the pride male point (mostly because we haven't been able to truly define what is a pride male). But pretty sure the feeling would be mutual, that he wouldnt want me as a client. And thats ok, to be this is about communication and expectations.

Here is an example, I have a hunt coming up and the PH told me, we might not see a ton of legal animals, and if I see a representative trophy I need to shoot it and not hold out. I am ok with this, some others might not be, but there is communication about it up front.
 
Hunt anything said:
This will be more in the “vetting” of an outfitter but to me more about the PH assigned to my hunt.
I believe on a specialized hunt such as cats, big elephant or sitatunga. I would ask about the density of desired game in the area but MOST importantly the amount of experience the PH has with that game.
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I agree with this 100%. I have less Africa experience, but have done several North America guided hunts. Twice I have gone with ‘reputable’ Outfitters but was assigned a guide with less knowledge of the hunting area or experience chasing the target game than I would have expected. I’ve found I can get enough information on the Outfitter online, but testing the guide (PH) that is what I dig into the most.
 
Guys,

The hunter in question is a client of mine although he booked this hunt on his own.. As told to me by the client there were other issues besides the lion all of which contributed the hunters dissatisfaction with the safari.

Mark
 
There were other issues?

Uf.

:unsure:
 
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