Politics

It’s not that I disagree with you, it’s just that the “breath and comments” are what makes this an interesting thread.

One doesn’t simply get to show up and make a statement and then declare that it is off limits for debate. ( I learned this from my wife.) :cool:
Sage advice.....taken(y)
 
I don't agree with this, as far as Iran having nuclear weapons, but a friend up here today shared this and said this is where he is at. My fear, ahead of the midterms, is that a lot of people are at this point or don't really believe Iran will ever have the capability.


1000027556.jpg
 
I don't agree with this, as far as Iran having nuclear weapons, but a friend up here today shared this and said this is where he is at. My fear, ahead of the midterms, is that a lot of people are at this point or don't really believe Iran will ever have the capability.


View attachment 793740
And when the defecation hits the oscillation, those same people will ask "How could that happen?".
 
As of this morning, regular gas is now $4.13-$4.35 a gallon in St Augustine FL. Trump thinks he can make a deal with the Iranians, but he ultimately allows them to keep blocking the Strait of Hormuz and expand their havoc to neighboring Arab countries. News Flash!!!! The Iranians are stringing this administration along, with the intent to outlast Trump, hoping the Democrats will be voted in to power at the next national election. They don't make deals. The regime must be destroyed with all their distorted ideologic fanatics. The Iranian citizens will never be strong enough to over through the regime. Sadly, this is just a pipe dream because the regime's total destruction will never occur. I do not care who disagrees with me, so to those who think I'm off my rocker, just save your breath and your comments. It's just of waste of time with me.
I'd generally agree that the Iranians are stringing Trump along, but I would like your thoughts on how exactly he could achieve their destruction even if he wanted to.

From where I'm sitting (and these are simply my own opinions formed on what data I have available), Trump has an incredibly weak hand and basically no viable options left. The Iranians obviously think so too, hence the stringing along, and the rejection of an extremely favorable MOU framework several times now.

The current strategy is ineffective. Air strikes have reached the limits of their utility. No meaningful progress is being made. Iran has lost a lot of its military forces, and even a lot of their leadership, true. It's a total victory at the tactical level. Yet they're still standing, and they still remain a credible enough threat that they're not coming to the negotiating table. That seems unlikely to change any time soon. So it's a strategic failure.

The attempts to enable an internal revolt have failed. The Iranian people are no more likely to overthrow their leaders now than they were 6 months ago. If anything, having a convenient external enemy acting as a clear aggressor seems to have been pretty good at unifying the population behind their government.

Economic sanctions have not been particularly effective, at least thus far. We already applied maximum sanctions. We're already rigorously enforcing them. We have very few options to escalate from here. Yes, Iran's economy is in desperately poor shape. But then, that's been true for years, it hasn't yet brought them to the table, there's no guarantee that the sanctions will achieve that any time soon, and now the pain is mounting for the rest of the world just as quickly.

The only countries that could meaningfully bring more pressure to bear on that front are Russia and China, both of whom are presumably quite happy to see the US humiliated in this way. The US could of course try and enforce the sanctions on Chinese institutions, Bessent certainly suggested we would. But realistically that'll hurt us and the world economy just as much as it does Iran, so unless you want to take the economic MAD option and intentionally kick off a global recession over this, it's not really feasible.

Assuming we don't want to try and force them, well, they're not likely to play ball of their own accord. Russia is a major oil producer who is already isolated (and therefore insulated) from the global markets due to their own sanctions. China is enjoying an enormous upswell in their global economic and political influence from this mess, and has the worlds largest strategic reserves. They can happily buy Russian and Iranian oil at a steep discount. They're hurting too, sure, but they can afford to wait a lot longer than the US can, and their governments aren't nearly as beholden to popular opinion anyway, so the situation plays to their benefit.

The only options left for escalation (beyond something truly drastic that would make the US an international pariah) are boots on the ground, and taking and holding the straits (both of them now I guess) by force.

That's political suicide, if it's even viable at all. It's the easiest possible way to guarantee a landslide loss in the midterms. You'd lose huge swaths of the more isolationist MAGA vote overnight, at a time when this administration needs all the support it can get. Even if they do cling on, it might even be enough to get some R house and senate reps to cross the aisle on the issue.

It'd be one thing if the R's were on track to comfortably retain the house and senate majorities. At least then, they could simply stall till late November and then make unpopular decisions whilst being safely insulated from political consequences for a couple of years... but that doesn't appear to be the situation we're in, at least for the House. Honestly, based on recent polling, even the Senate is a bit of a question.

It rather seems to me that that's the main incentive behind the increasingly desperate attempts at negotiating a peace from our side. Sorting that in the next 6 weeks is pretty much the only chance the R's have of retaining the ability to exercise political power for the next two years. The Iranians seem to be of that opinion also.

Even ignoring the political angle, holding the strait(s) effectively is going to divert a lot of resources away from the south china sea, Europe, everywhere else, and probably won't achieve the goals of enabling free trade and easing of the oil shock problem anyway. Even with a US naval task force in the area and US troops on Kharg Island, the Iranians will likely remain a credible enough threat that shipping will still be uninsurable and oil supplies will still be constrained for many months to come. Even if we can achieve a total victory and topple the regime, there's going to be enough Iranian military commanders, Iranian sponsored rebels, and Iranian assets knocking around the region that the situation is unlikely to change quickly.

It's a lose/lose situation, especially as a boots on the ground war is just going to devolve into a protracted, unpopular, expensive mess that'll make the last couple of middle eastern efforts look like a minor skirmish... and then we'll withdraw in 10 years having achieved nothing. I have full confidence in the military's ability to execute such a plan, but the Iranians aren't going to adopt a western form of governance any time soon, and I have no confidence in the US having the political will to stick this one out to the point that real change becomes possible, so it'll just be Afghanistan all over again.

This is (IMO) the direct consequence of incompetent, poorly executed actions with no coherent plan, or clear strategic objectives. I don't know what intel or strategic framework the Trump administration was operating under when they kicked this whole thing off, but it's pretty clear that someone drastically miscalculated.

In my opinion, the best we can hope for now is to get back to where we were a year ago, maybe with some unenforcable pinky promise from the Iranians that they totally won't be making any nukes, honest... Even achieving that much is looking increasingly unlikely.
 
I'd generally agree that the Iranians are stringing Trump along, but I would like your thoughts on how exactly he could achieve their destruction even if he wanted to.

From where I'm sitting (and these are simply my own opinions formed on what data I have available), Trump has an incredibly weak hand and basically no viable options left. The Iranians obviously think so too, hence the stringing along, and the rejection of an extremely favorable MOU framework several times now.

The current strategy is ineffective. Air strikes have reached the limits of their utility. No meaningful progress is being made. Iran has lost a lot of its military forces, and even a lot of their leadership, true. It's a total victory at the tactical level. Yet they're still standing, and they still remain a credible enough threat that they're not coming to the negotiating table. That seems unlikely to change any time soon. So it's a strategic failure.

The attempts to enable an internal revolt have failed. The Iranian people are no more likely to overthrow their leaders now than they were 6 months ago. If anything, having a convenient external enemy acting as a clear aggressor seems to have been pretty good at unifying the population behind their government.

Economic sanctions have not been particularly effective, at least thus far. We already applied maximum sanctions. We're already rigorously enforcing them. We have very few options to escalate from here. Yes, Iran's economy is in desperately poor shape. But then, that's been true for years, it hasn't yet brought them to the table, there's no guarantee that the sanctions will achieve that any time soon, and now the pain is mounting for the rest of the world just as quickly.

The only countries that could meaningfully bring more pressure to bear on that front are Russia and China, both of whom are presumably quite happy to see the US humiliated in this way. The US could of course try and enforce the sanctions on Chinese institutions, Bessent certainly suggested we would. But realistically that'll hurt us and the world economy just as much as it does Iran, so unless you want to take the economic MAD option and intentionally kick off a global recession over this, it's not really feasible.

Assuming we don't want to try and force them, well, they're not likely to play ball of their own accord. Russia is a major oil producer who is already isolated (and therefore insulated) from the global markets due to their own sanctions. China is enjoying an enormous upswell in their global economic and political influence from this mess, and has the worlds largest strategic reserves. They can happily buy Russian and Iranian oil at a steep discount. They're hurting too, sure, but they can afford to wait a lot longer than the US can, and their governments aren't nearly as beholden to popular opinion anyway, so the situation plays to their benefit.

The only options left for escalation (beyond something truly drastic that would make the US an international pariah) are boots on the ground, and taking and holding the straits (both of them now I guess) by force.

That's political suicide, if it's even viable at all. It's the easiest possible way to guarantee a landslide loss in the midterms. You'd lose huge swaths of the more isolationist MAGA vote overnight, at a time when this administration needs all the support it can get. Even if they do cling on, it might even be enough to get some R house and senate reps to cross the aisle on the issue.

It'd be one thing if the R's were on track to comfortably retain the house and senate majorities. At least then, they could simply stall till late November and then make unpopular decisions whilst being safely insulated from political consequences for a couple of years... but that doesn't appear to be the situation we're in, at least for the House. Honestly, based on recent polling, even the Senate is a bit of a question.

It rather seems to me that that's the main incentive behind the increasingly desperate attempts at negotiating a peace from our side. Sorting that in the next 6 weeks is pretty much the only chance the R's have of retaining the ability to exercise political power for the next two years. The Iranians seem to be of that opinion also.

Even ignoring the political angle, holding the strait(s) effectively is going to divert a lot of resources away from the south china sea, Europe, everywhere else, and probably won't achieve the goals of enabling free trade and easing of the oil shock problem anyway. Even with a US naval task force in the area and US troops on Kharg Island, the Iranians will likely remain a credible enough threat that shipping will still be uninsurable and oil supplies will still be constrained for many months to come. Even if we can achieve a total victory and topple the regime, there's going to be enough Iranian military commanders, Iranian sponsored rebels, and Iranian assets knocking around the region that the situation is unlikely to change quickly.

It's a lose/lose situation, especially as a boots on the ground war is just going to devolve into a protracted, unpopular, expensive mess that'll make the last couple of middle eastern efforts look like a minor skirmish... and then we'll withdraw in 10 years having achieved nothing. I have full confidence in the military's ability to execute such a plan, but the Iranians aren't going to adopt a western form of governance any time soon, and I have no confidence in the US having the political will to stick this one out to the point that real change becomes possible, so it'll just be Afghanistan all over again.

This is (IMO) the direct consequence of incompetent, poorly executed actions with no coherent plan, or clear strategic objectives. I don't know what intel or strategic framework the Trump administration was operating under when they kicked this whole thing off, but it's pretty clear that someone drastically miscalculated.

In my opinion, the best we can hope for now is to get back to where we were a year ago, maybe with some unenforcable pinky promise from the Iranians that they totally won't be making any nukes, honest... Even achieving that much is looking increasingly unlikely.
Could he. That possibility of miscalculation has been brought up here before. The more tunnel-visioned, classically trained “tacticians” and old guard strategists may be the ones advising. Something tells me and has for a while that the hard core theocrats and mullahs, etc. ruling Iran do not care if we blow the entire country back to the 7th century. They may well be perfectly happy as long as a few of them survive and retain their power. It is like using sane, conventional logic to deal with a group afflicted with a collective insanity. There are too many, fairly recent, well documented examples in history to discount that probability.
 
Could he. That possibility of miscalculation has been brought up here before. The more tunnel-visioned, classically trained “tacticians” and old guard strategists may be the ones advising. Something tells me and has for a while that the hard core theocrat/mullahs, etc. ruling Iran do not care if we blow the entire country back to the 7th century. They may well be perfectly happy as long as a few of them survive and retain their power. It is like using sane, conventional logic to deal with a group afflicted with a collective insanity. There are too many, fairly recent, well documented examples in history to discount that probability.
I wouldn't call it collective insanity. In fact, it's ruthlessly logical on their part.

The Iranian regime is a small party dictatorship, operating in a country with the resource curse.

They don't give a crap about their people, because their people have no bearing on their survival.

For the regime to retain power, they need enough money to bribe key backers, pay the military, and continue the fight. Oil exports to China and arms sales to Russia fill that need just fine from a financial perspective. So who cares if most of their people starve and most of their economy is degraded? They don't need them, and as long as they have the money to pay their internal security apparatus, they can easily suppress any dissent.

In that paradigm, US sanctions are effectively toothless, they're not hitting the mullahs in any way that hurts. The current level of military intervention also seems pretty ineffective, as does any attempt at promoting an internal coup. So what options exist to exert real pressure except the (not politically viable) 'proper war'?

People seem to look at the situation on the ground through the western democratic lens. The country is in ruins, their economy destroyed, their military degraded. We must be winning, surely they start negotiating soon... we would if the situation was reversed.

But in my opinion, that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the country's structure and the levers of power..
 
Reports of anywhere from 500-1,000 drones launched in attack on Moscow/Refinery

I know they were already suffering shortages and lines for fuel.

@WAB what do you think the chances are of them getting that facility back online before the Russian winter sets in?
 
Banning certain press outlets from the White House is a very dangerous precedent, and just simply wrong, IMHO.

Agreed. Instead of outright ban, put them in time out in the back row.
 

Oh brother! Weaponizing proposed monuments as an excuse to get them built. Trump just has the building shits. Here I thought he would focus on balancing the budget. Pissing away millions on a glorious imperial eyesore in these financially trying times makes zero sense.
 
Oh brother! Weaponizing proposed monuments as an excuse to get them built. Trump just has the building shits. Here I thought he would focus on balancing the budget. Pissing away millions on a glorious imperial eyesore in these financially trying times makes zero sense.

A monument can wait, the deficit and interest bill definitely can't. Every administration loves a ribbon-cutting project when the boring fiscal stuff starts hurting.
 
I'd generally agree that the Iranians are stringing Trump along, but I would like your thoughts on how exactly he could achieve their destruction even if he wanted to.

From where I'm sitting (and these are simply my own opinions formed on what data I have available), Trump has an incredibly weak hand and basically no viable options left. The Iranians obviously think so too, hence the stringing along, and the rejection of an extremely favorable MOU framework several times now.

The current strategy is ineffective. Air strikes have reached the limits of their utility. No meaningful progress is being made. Iran has lost a lot of its military forces, and even a lot of their leadership, true. It's a total victory at the tactical level. Yet they're still standing, and they still remain a credible enough threat that they're not coming to the negotiating table. That seems unlikely to change any time soon. So it's a strategic failure.

The attempts to enable an internal revolt have failed. The Iranian people are no more likely to overthrow their leaders now than they were 6 months ago. If anything, having a convenient external enemy acting as a clear aggressor seems to have been pretty good at unifying the population behind their government.

Economic sanctions have not been particularly effective, at least thus far. We already applied maximum sanctions. We're already rigorously enforcing them. We have very few options to escalate from here. Yes, Iran's economy is in desperately poor shape. But then, that's been true for years, it hasn't yet brought them to the table, there's no guarantee that the sanctions will achieve that any time soon, and now the pain is mounting for the rest of the world just as quickly.

The only countries that could meaningfully bring more pressure to bear on that front are Russia and China, both of whom are presumably quite happy to see the US humiliated in this way. The US could of course try and enforce the sanctions on Chinese institutions, Bessent certainly suggested we would. But realistically that'll hurt us and the world economy just as much as it does Iran, so unless you want to take the economic MAD option and intentionally kick off a global recession over this, it's not really feasible.

Assuming we don't want to try and force them, well, they're not likely to play ball of their own accord. Russia is a major oil producer who is already isolated (and therefore insulated) from the global markets due to their own sanctions. China is enjoying an enormous upswell in their global economic and political influence from this mess, and has the worlds largest strategic reserves. They can happily buy Russian and Iranian oil at a steep discount. They're hurting too, sure, but they can afford to wait a lot longer than the US can, and their governments aren't nearly as beholden to popular opinion anyway, so the situation plays to their benefit.

The only options left for escalation (beyond something truly drastic that would make the US an international pariah) are boots on the ground, and taking and holding the straits (both of them now I guess) by force.

That's political suicide, if it's even viable at all. It's the easiest possible way to guarantee a landslide loss in the midterms. You'd lose huge swaths of the more isolationist MAGA vote overnight, at a time when this administration needs all the support it can get. Even if they do cling on, it might even be enough to get some R house and senate reps to cross the aisle on the issue.

It'd be one thing if the R's were on track to comfortably retain the house and senate majorities. At least then, they could simply stall till late November and then make unpopular decisions whilst being safely insulated from political consequences for a couple of years... but that doesn't appear to be the situation we're in, at least for the House. Honestly, based on recent polling, even the Senate is a bit of a question.

It rather seems to me that that's the main incentive behind the increasingly desperate attempts at negotiating a peace from our side. Sorting that in the next 6 weeks is pretty much the only chance the R's have of retaining the ability to exercise political power for the next two years. The Iranians seem to be of that opinion also.

Even ignoring the political angle, holding the strait(s) effectively is going to divert a lot of resources away from the south china sea, Europe, everywhere else, and probably won't achieve the goals of enabling free trade and easing of the oil shock problem anyway. Even with a US naval task force in the area and US troops on Kharg Island, the Iranians will likely remain a credible enough threat that shipping will still be uninsurable and oil supplies will still be constrained for many months to come. Even if we can achieve a total victory and topple the regime, there's going to be enough Iranian military commanders, Iranian sponsored rebels, and Iranian assets knocking around the region that the situation is unlikely to change quickly.

It's a lose/lose situation, especially as a boots on the ground war is just going to devolve into a protracted, unpopular, expensive mess that'll make the last couple of middle eastern efforts look like a minor skirmish... and then we'll withdraw in 10 years having achieved nothing. I have full confidence in the military's ability to execute such a plan, but the Iranians aren't going to adopt a western form of governance any time soon, and I have no confidence in the US having the political will to stick this one out to the point that real change becomes possible, so it'll just be Afghanistan all over again.

This is (IMO) the direct consequence of incompetent, poorly executed actions with no coherent plan, or clear strategic objectives. I don't know what intel or strategic framework the Trump administration was operating under when they kicked this whole thing off, but it's pretty clear that someone drastically miscalculated.

In my opinion, the best we can hope for now is to get back to where we were a year ago, maybe with some unenforcable pinky promise from the Iranians that they totally won't be making any nukes, honest... Even achieving that much is looking increasingly unlikely.

I think you have correctly calculated the American politics. Americans in general have a very short attention span politically and honestly hate any inconvenience.

I think you have 100% incorrectly assessed the situation in Iran. Both sides think they have time on their side. Eventually the Iranian people will rise up. As a Zimbabwean PH told me, Mugabe would be overthrown in a week if the UN stopped given the people food. Hungry people will eventually riot. You also have to remember a large population of Iranians are scared Americans will stop bombing, there have been far more civilians killed by the regime than the American bombing campaign. This is a traditional scenario where bombing strengthens the resolve of the civilian population.

Taxi drivers have stopped driving going against the orders of the regime, because they cant afford gas, people are starting to starve. Public hangings have been postponed and rescheduled due to fear of protests. The mullahs might not be impacted exonomically but when the people do rise up, they will be hanging them from cranes.

Iran has no weapons to sell, no way to move oil, and only hope is Americans cave into political pressure and back off.
 
I think you have correctly calculated the American politics. Americans in general have a very short attention span politically and honestly hate any inconvenience.

I think you have 100% incorrectly assessed the situation in Iran. Both sides think they have time on their side. Eventually the Iranian people will rise up. As a Zimbabwean PH told me, Mugabe would be overthrown in a week if the UN stopped given the people food. Hungry people will eventually riot. You also have to remember a large population of Iranians are scared Americans will stop bombing, there have been far more civilians killed by the regime than the American bombing campaign. This is a traditional scenario where bombing strengthens the resolve of the civilian population.

Taxi drivers have stopped driving going against the orders of the regime, because they cant afford gas, people are starting to starve. Public hangings have been postponed and rescheduled due to fear of protests. The mullahs might not be impacted exonomically but when the people do rise up, they will be hanging them from cranes.

Iran has no weapons to sell, no way to move oil, and only hope is Americans cave into political pressure and back off.

If we could apply sufficient economic pressure to encourage the Iranian people to revolt, why haven't they already done so? We've been doing it pretty much non-stop since 1979.

If the Iranian people were so keen to rise up, why didn't they do so back in February 2026 when we were actively trying to enable that? Why didn't they do so at any point in the last 20 years when the US was trying exactly the same tool kit to force them to do so?

If the Iranian regime was so scared, why didn't they accept the MOU offered months ago?

The terms were incredibly favorable, more so even than the previous Obama era deal they were offered.

The Iranian government obviously feel they have all the cards, and can push for more. I think they're right, to be honest. If you're waiting for the Iranians to stage an internal revolution, you could be waiting decades. The US needs results now...

As for no weapons to sell and no way to move oil..

Iran has sold a great deal of weapons to Russia in the last couple of years, and continue to do so. Russia is now selling a lot of stuff back. Drones, electronic warfare, propulsion technologies, etc. A lot of it is licensing deals or tech transfers, a lot of it enabled through crypto to avoid sanctions or scrutiny.

We're seeing those weapon systems in Ukraine, and we're seeing the Russian built improvements in Hormuz. This is no secret. They have plenty of weapons to sell, and are gathering a great deal of intelligence on their performance against the west that makes that technology more valuable.


On the oil front, China is buying about 500,000 barrels every day at present. About 1/4 of peak volumes in 2024 admittedly, but clearly they do have pretty effective ways to transport it. If they didn't, Bessent wouldn't be discussing sanctions on the Chinese entities buying it. Which, incidentally, isn't going to happen.


 
If we could apply sufficient economic pressure to encourage the Iranian people to revolt, why haven't they already done so? We've been doing it pretty much non-stop since 1979.

We have not, until recently we pretty did what international diplomats do best, they posture. Obama literally removed sanctions, Iranian negotiators made John Kerry cry. Please look at value of the Iranian currency compared to the dollar.

If the Iranian people were so keen to rise up, why didn't they do so back in February 2026 when we were actively trying to enable that? Why didn't they do so at any point in the last 20 years when the US was trying exactly the same tool kit to force them to do so?

They did back in January/February at least 40k protestors were killed, did you not follow that. The people literally burned mosques, targeted IRGC buildings. They have tried numerous times in the last 40 years, but the Americans and West as a whole didnt want to get involved. With all due respect this is a pretty ignorant comment regarding Iranian political uprising.

If the Iranian regime was so scared, why didn't they accept the MOU offered months ago?

Most their leadership is dead, the ones that care to live wanted to take the deal, but IRGC continues to think they can win.


Iran has sold a great deal of weapons to Russia in the last couple of years, and continue to do so. Russia is now selling a lot of stuff back.

You literally prove my point, Iran has nothing to sell now, they did 6 months ago, they dont now. The conditions in Iran have changed.

On the oil front, China is buying about 500,000 barrels every day at present. About 1/4 of peak volumes in 2024 admittedly, but clearly they do have pretty effective ways to transport it.

This is a significant drop, and China is having to use some of its strategic reserves, which are over 1.4Billion barrels.

Also I wouldn't bet against Bessent.
 
Reports of anywhere from 500-1,000 drones launched in attack on Moscow/Refinery

I know they were already suffering shortages and lines for fuel.

@WAB what do you think the chances are of them getting that facility back online before the Russian winter sets in?

It’s possible if they didn’t hit any critical long delivery equipment. I once got a crude unit back on line in four weeks when a fire took out all cableways (electrical and electronics). So bottom line, piping and wiring could be repaired. If they took out critical reactors, compressors, a control room, etc., there’s no way.
 
We have seen oil at over $140/barrel before. We've never seen diesel hit $6. Oil is currently trading right around $100/barrel. In 2022 it was over $114, gas went over $4, but diesel (in normal states, not CA) peaked at $5.81.
Why is diesel being so much more heavily impacted now? What has changed?
 

Forum statistics

Threads
70,247
Messages
1,567,270
Members
167,948
Latest member
iv7gameapkin
 

 

 

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

SStomcat wrote on Mark458's profile.
Mark - I think you have a CZ 404 Jeff in synthetic stock. Is this factory spec. or you switched the stock? thx
SS
migrabill wrote on nyrifleman's profile.
Thank you for responding to my post. You have a PRE 64 and it is still new in box???! I would need to see pics and a price please.
 
Top