Ammunition or Rifle issue? Merkel Double 416 Rigby issues

Noah Hutchens

Noah Hutchens

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Hello, I’m hoping some knowledge folks on here will be able to tell me what’s going on. I’ve made two posts now about my newly acquired Merkel double rifle. I just took it to the range today for the first time, after JJ installed a red dot on it and addressed a small hairline crack in the stock, and used some factory Barnes ammunition I just purchased. I used two different boxes, one of the TXS and the other was Solids. After shooting rounds out of both boxes the rifle would not open unless I pushed as hard as I could on the lever and then after I got the lever moved to the side I had to push with significant force on the barrels to get it to break open. I stopped shooting it after trying two rounds from each box since they both caused the same issue. Directly afterwards new factory ammunition slides right in the chambers and the rifle closes and opens with them in there just fine. However, putting in the empty fired brass shells the rifle will not close up. I’m guessing this is completely a Barnes ammunition issue? Previous rifle owner said he only shot factory hornady ammunition through it and he never once had any issue and I’m inclined to believe him. I’m probably going to buy a box of hornady and test it out and see what happens but I’m just trying to get to the bottom of the issue. Any help would be appreciated thanks!
 

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can you measure piece of the fired brass and compare to the unfired?

Measure at the base and a couple of places along the body and at the shoulder.

The Barnes brass may not be springing back to size after firing and is exerting pressure on the breech face making the gun tight. It doesn’t get noticed by most people because most 416s are bolt guns.

That’s my first thought. I’ll be interested to hear what others think.

How did the round you fired regulate?
 
Noah Hutchens said:
Hello, I’m hoping some knowledge folks on here will be able to tell me what’s going on. I’ve made two posts now about my newly acquired Merkel double rifle. I just took it to the range today for the first time, after JJ installed a red dot on it and addressed a small hairline crack in the stock, and used some factory Barnes ammunition I just purchased. I used two different boxes, one of the TXS and the other was Solids. After shooting rounds out of both boxes the rifle would not open unless I pushed as hard as I could on the lever and then after I got the lever moved to the side I had to push with significant force on the barrels to get it to break open. I stopped shooting it after trying two rounds from each box since they both caused the same issue. Directly afterwards new factory ammunition slides right in the chambers and the rifle closes and opens with them in there just fine. However, putting in the empty fired brass shells the rifle will not close up. I’m guessing this is completely a Barnes ammunition issue? Previous rifle owner said he only shot factory hornady ammunition through it and he never once had any issue and I’m inclined to believe him. I’m probably going to buy a box of hornady and test it out and see what happens but I’m just trying to get to the bottom of the issue. Any help would be appreciated thanks!
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It sounds like the loads are a bit hot. This is one of the main reasons why double rifles typically have rimmed/flanged cartridges. Does it regulate well with this ammo? What ammo was it regulated to shoot?

I'd build a custom load that regulates at lower pressure.
 
Russ16 said:
can you measure piece of the fired brass and compare to the unfired?

Measure at the base and a couple of places along the body and at the shoulder.

The Barnes brass may not be springing back to size after firing and is exerting pressure on the breech face making the gun tight. It doesn’t get noticed by most people because most 416s are bolt guns.

That’s my first thought. I’ll be interested to hear what others think.

How did the round you fired regulate?
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It shot well at 50 years with them hitting within two inches of each other
 
rookhawk said:
It sounds like the loads are a bit hot. This is one of the main reasons why double rifles typically have rimmed/flanged cartridges. Does it regulate well with this ammo? What ammo was it regulated to shoot?

I'd build a custom load that regulates at lower pressure.
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So just the factory ammunition is too powerful? Is this a common issue? I don’t have a setup to reload at the moment so I am limited to factory ammunition.
 
Does anyone have any ammunition other than the Barnes that they would be interested in mailing me a few rounds(of which I’d obviously pay for) to try and see if they will work in my rifle? Bonus points for multiple types lol.


I don’t mind buying more ammunition I would just hate to purchase a $200 box of ammo, or multiple, just to find out after the first two rounds that it has the same issue in my rifle.
 
Hornady publishes 2415 fps and 5180 ft lbs
Barnes is 2400 fps and 5117 ft lbs. published

My guess would be Barnes brass itself,
If Hornady does the same thing, sounds like JJ needs to look at it again.
 
Since you are local to JJ, I might pay him to diagnose that issue AND work up a suitable load for you. Examine the spent brass carefully; do you see anything that looks like the cases have a small lengthwise split or bulge anywhere? Look at the primer and the case head; does it look like the firing pins drag when you try to break open the rifle? When you try to insert the spent cases, do they seat all the way or do they protrude a bit?

Maybe mic the head thickness of spent and new cases?
Capture.PNG
 
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DaddyFlip said:
Since you are local to JJ, I might pay him to diagnose that issue AND work up a suitable load for you.
Click to expand...
I’ve been texting with him since I shot it and he said we won’t know until I try another brand/ type of ammunition. He said to try the hornady and or Federal and see what they do and then we will address it if necessary.

So I’m looking to see if anyone on here could let me buy 4 rounds of hornady and 4 rounds of the federal ammunition from them so I can test it in my rifle. Or if someone has 4 rounds of a custom load I could purchase and try.
 
Could it be a headspace issue where the cases are stretching? I'm not a double man, so just guessing... I was hoping to find a hint in Graeme Wright's book, but no.

I posted the case dimensions above.
 
DaddyFlip said:
Since you are local to JJ, I might pay him to diagnose that issue AND work up a suitable load for you. Examine the spent brass carefully; do you see anything that looks like the cases have a small lengthwise split or bulge anywhere? Look at the primer and the case head; does it look like the firing pins drag when you try to break open the rifle? When you try to insert the spent cases, do they seat all the way or do they protrude a bit?

Maybe mic the head thickness of spent and new cases?
View attachment 776029
Click to expand...
No splits, primers look like normal fired primers to me. When I put the spent cartridges into the rifle and close it up I can get it to close up but the lever wont close and stays to the right and then I have to push pretty hard on the barrels to get it to break back open. And again if I put in fresh unfired rounds there is no issue. I don’t own a micrometer so I can’t check the cases that way
 
Noah Hutchens said:
I’ve been texting with him since I shot it and he said we won’t know until I try another brand/ type of ammunition. He said to try the hornady and or Federal and see what they do and then we will address it if necessary.

So I’m looking to see if anyone on here could let me buy 4 rounds of hornady and 4 rounds of the federal ammunition from them so I can test it in my rifle. Or if someone has 4 rounds of a custom load I could purchase and try.
Click to expand...
DM me, I have stuff to reload and could send ya a few rounds
 
Ok so I took a harder look at the spent cartridges and there is some discoloration at the end of them.

Also, I towards the rear 1/4in or so up front the rim there is a pretty clear line on the spent cartridge and if I rub my fingers over it(very scientific I know) I think I can feel a slight bump or bulge going all the way around right on the visible line. I included a photo of it. I also put it next to an unfired round to compare, it doesn’t have said “line”.
 

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Also, just noticed that when putting the fired shells on my kitchen counter that don’t sit flat standing up as it seems like the primer is protruding a little bit now, for comparison an unfired round from the same box stands up straight and sits flat on the counter.
 
Mark Biggerstaff said:
Hornady publishes 2415 fps and 5180 ft lbs
Barnes is 2400 fps and 5117 ft lbs. published

My guess would be Barnes brass itself,
If Hornady does the same thing, sounds like JJ needs to look at it again.
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Completely agree. I always make sure JJ has my ammo to test all my doubles when I send to him. Yes I know it creates angst to send back to JJ but you will have more if you keep guessing at the problem versus getting the world’s best to try to replicate the problem then fix it. Money well spent
 
Rare Breed said:
Completely agree. I always make sure JJ has my ammo to test all my doubles when I send to him. Yes I know it creates angst to send back to JJ but you will have more if you keep guessing at the problem versus getting the world’s best to try to replicate the problem then fix it. Money well spent
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I’m not opposed to it since he’s only an hour drive from me, so I don’t have to mail it off or anything. Like I said above I’ve been texting him today about the details and stuff and he said to go ahead and try the Hornady/federal and see what happens. Did you see the pictures I just added above of the spent brass? Does it look like it was overloaded? I’m a novice when it comes to ammunition.
 
Alright, the primers look okay, meaning it's not excessive pressure; but in my opinion, you've got what Lyman and Graeme Wright call incipient case head separation as indicated by the bright/shiny portion of the case- what you called the line- just above the head. It means the brass has stretched there and it is slightly elongated after firing- and that's why you can't open the breech easily or reclose it on fired brass. That's either because the Barnes brass sucks or there's a headspace problem in the chamber. That's me spouting off things I've read and studied... not because I've experienced it or know what to do about it. I'm just diagnosing what the brass is showing plus what you're describing. The problem is virgin brass or factory rounds shouldn't experience IHS, especially a non-belted case that headspaces on the shoulder. Problem #2 is, the Rigby has a small shoulder; I don't know what to say about that in a double rifle. Someone on here with real experience may refute what I've said, but that's the indication to me. I hope you get it figured out... if the previous owner never had a problem, maybe there is something about the Hornady brass that is a better "fit" for that particular rifle. Good luck!

PS: Make a feeler wire like GW describes below to see if you can feel anything inside the case to indicate IHS.
Capture.PNG
 
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DaddyFlip said:
Alright, the primers look okay, meaning it's not excessive pressure; but in my opinion, you've got what Lyman and Graeme Wright call incipient case head separation as indicated by the bright/shiny portion of the case- what you called the line- just above the head. It means the brass has stretched there and it is slightly elongated after firing- and that's why you can't open the breech easily or reclose it on fired brass. That's either because the Barnes brass sucks or there's a headspace problem in the chamber. That's me spouting off things I've read and studied... not because I've experienced it or know what to do about it. I'm just diagnosing what the brass is showing plus what you're describing. The problem is virgin brass or factory rounds shouldn't experience IHS. Someone on here with real experience may refute what I've said, but that's the indication to me. I hope you get it figured out... if the previous owner never had a problem, maybe there is something about the Hornady brass that is a better "fit" for that particular rifle. Good luck!

PS: Make a feeler wire like GW describes below to see if you can feel anything inside the case to indicate IHS.
View attachment 776058
Click to expand...
I appreciate the info.

The barrels lock up to the receiver tight as can be and I specifically asked JJ about it when I dropped the rifle off and he said there was no play/wiggle and that there was nothing to worry about. Is it possible for the headspace to be bad even with the gun locking up tight with no gap or wiggle?
 
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