Ammunition or Rifle issue? Merkel Double 416 Rigby issues

[DaddyFlip]

You can do a search for "rifle headspace explained" or the like to understand there may be MORE space between the breech face and the bearing surface of the chamber where the shoulder hits. If the case is allowed to move when the case expands inside the chamber, it could be moving backward in addition to moving outward- this is where head separation occurs. Beltless cases with long and wide shoulders (like 308 Win) avoid this better than those with tiny shoulders (like the Rigby or even the 416 Rem) or those with belts and narrow shoulders (like the 300 and 375 H&H). Chamber fit is important. If the chamber is oversize for the brass, you wouldn't notice a thing closing the breech on new rounds; the problem would manifest on fired brass because it stretched to fit the oversized chamber.

I'm not saying you have an oversized chamber; I'm trying to justify your experience so far. Again, I'm hoping someone with real experience confirms or denies what I'm saying. I'm typing out loud here!

For your reference, here's the first part of Graeme's IHS description

 

[DaddyFlip]

Here's the Lyman description

 

[DaddyFlip]

I took a closer look at your brass. You have the shiny discoloration near the case head and the circumferential line above it; it's IHS on factory rounds indicating excessive headspace. That's my educated but without double rifle or Rigby experience opinion- final answer.

 

[roklok]

I dont have double rifle experience, but do have experience with T/C Contenders and Encores, and a family member with a New England Handi Rifle that I handloaded 270 for. What you describe is what I have experienced when loads are generating too much pressure. The brass is stretching upon firing and slightly "springing" the receiver, and this is a sign that the pressure or case head thrust exceeds the limits of the action or receiver. The brass normally retracts partially from max expansion, but in this case the face of the receiver is actually being forced rearwards upon firing, springing the action slightly, so that when the brass relaxes it is still wedged tight against face. Long term use of rounds generating higher pressure could cause the rifle to go "off face", a few rounds arent likely to cause issues, but I definitely would not shoot more of them. If the action is not being "sprung" by head thrust exceeding limits of action when the brass retracts it is no longer wedged tight against breech face, allowing action to open normally.

 

[DaddyFlip]

Hey @roklok what is your opinion of OP's primers? They looked normal to me, not flattened, which is what you would normally associate with excessive pressure on a bolt or lever gun, or even on a revolver. Is it different on a break top? What you're describing sounds like "temporary excessive headspace"; the brass is still stretched by this springing of the action rather than the bearing surface (shoulder area) being wrong.

 

[matt85]

Based on your spent brass, I dont believe the pressure is too high.

My own vote is either the brass is out of spec or the chambers are out of spec. It could be something as simple as the chamber throats being on the short end of the spec and the case necks being on the long end. This would cause the case neck to extend slightly too far upon firing. Measure the length of an unfired case and compare it to the specs posted earlier in the thread.

I look forward to results with different ammuntion.

 

[roklok]

I agree the primers look normal, not flattened like one would expect to see when running into pressure signs with a bolt action. The thing is, break actions can exhibit problems with pressure at lower levels than what could cause problems with a bolt action. There is a reason traditional double rifle cartridges operate at relatively low pressures. Steel is elastic, and the distance between hinge and breech face is a lot longer on a double than most bolt actions.

Another possibility is that the brass is not as elastic for some reason and is not "relaxing" from its maximum dimensions upon firing, and thus staying wedged against breech face.

 

[Russ16]

I think you need to try some other ammo for sure. I know $200 is a lot for a box but if it works you’re going to want a whole box anyway. If it shows the same problem you’re going to need to have the rifle worked on and having a couple kinds of ammo to be used in testing will be a benefit.

 

[Noah Hutchens]

I think you need to try some other ammo for sure. I know $200 is a lot for a box but if it works you’re going to want a whole box anyway. If it shows the same problem you’re going to need to have the rifle worked on and having a couple kinds of ammo to be used in testing will be a benefit.

I’m going to buy some or buy a few rounds off some members here and test it. Previous owner said Hornady worked with no issues….. so I’m really hoping it’s the ammunition for some reason.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Good morning @Noah Hutchens. I had a Merkel 141 in 30-06. Exact same issue with Barnes factory ammo. I fired numerous different types of ammo from Federal, Hornady, Remington, Norma, Swift and Winchester. No issues at all and I fired 150, 165 and 180 gr loads. Only happened with Barnes factory ammo. I didn’t see it as an issue other than the fact that it did not like Barnes ammo which I do like. Also, it shot Norma Oryx and Remington great which made it easy for me to shrug off the issue with Barnes ammo.

Safe shooting

 

[Noah Hutchens]

Good morning @Noah Hutchens. I had a Merkel 141 in 30-06. Exact same issue with Barnes factory ammo. I fired numerous different types of ammo from Federal, Hornady, Remington, Norma, Swift and Winchester. No issues at all and I fired 150, 165 and 180 gr loads. Only happened with Barnes factory ammo. I didn’t see it as an issue other than the fact that it did not like Barnes ammo which I do like. Also, it shot Norma Oryx and Remington great which made it easy for me to shrug off the issue with Barnes ammo.

Safe shooting

Thank you for writing that lol, thats gives me a huge sigh of relief. I can now go about my weekend a little less stressed out.

I’m going to shoot some other rounds to verify and I will post my results back here.

 

[Moody808]

Please keep us posted on how it turns out, as a fellow Merkel owner I'd love to know the cause once you have it figured out.

 

[BGHNTR416]

This is interesting. I have a custom 7x57 on an Oberndorf Mauser action. This is a bolt gun. Tried some barnes ammo in it and very heavy bolt lift. No issues with other ammo, factory or reloads.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

This is interesting. I have a custom 7x57 on an Oberndorf Mauser action. This is a bolt gun. Tried some barnes ammo in it and very heavy bolt lift. No issues with other ammo, factory or reloads.

Barnes factory ammunition? I wasn't aware they made 7x57 ammo.

Safe shooting

 

[BGHNTR416]

Barnes factory ammunition? I wasn't aware they made 7x57 ammo.

Safe shooting

I could be mistaken. It was a number of years ago and I cannot find the box of ammo...I do remember it was an all copper bullet for sure.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Looking at primers is a poor means to measure pressure. At the pressure a 416 Rigby operates at the primer should not show signs of pressure until it is severely overloaded.

 

[Andrew NOLA]

Ammoseek.com has 416 Rigby hornady in the $130-$140 range per box

 

[Journey]

I received Noah's brass today and took some measurements.

His spent brass was consistently .591" at the base. Which is .006~.009 bigger than any of my virgin or fired brass. The spent round would not chamber in my cz550. Ran it thru a resizing die and it came down to .587 and loads in my rifle fine.

Here is his barnes brass next to a shot hornady brass. The barnes primer is pushed out as Noah mentioned. After popping the primer out the brass sits flat on the table and no longer wobbles.

Theories:
1) In the world of bolt action rifles i hear you can get "signs of pressure" on your case when under loaded as the case expansion is not exerting enough pressure, and the case moves back harder than it should. With having to expand .010 you get some backward movement before the expansion pressure builds. Could be barnes brass is too hard for low pressure rounds

2) primer bulging is due to Barnes loading a hot round - seems strange as 416 rigby are low pressure in modern terms.

3) I am a moron haha the above are a bit contradictory I know

Tests we decided on:
1)Going to shoot one of his barnes in my cz550 and inspect it

2) reloads - sending mild/medium reloads to Noah in virgin hornady, norma and his cases reloaded.

 

[Noah Hutchens]

I received Noah's brass today and took some measurements.

His spent brass was consistently .591" at the base. Which is .006~.009 bigger than any of my virgin or fired brass. The spent round would not chamber in my cz550. Ran it thru a resizing die and it came down to .587 and loads in my rifle fine.View attachment 777465

Here is his barnes brass next to a shot hornady brass. The barnes primer is pushed out as Noah mentioned. After popping the primer out the brass sits flat on the table and no longer wobbles.
View attachment 777466

Theories:
1) In the world of bolt action rifles i hear you can get "signs of pressure" on your case when under loaded as the case expansion is not exerting enough pressure, and the case moves back harder than it should. With having to expand .010 you get some backward movement before the expansion pressure builds. Could be barnes brass is too hard for low pressure rounds

2) primer bulging is due to Barnes loading a hot round - seems strange as 416 rigby are low pressure in modern terms.

3) I am a moron haha the above are a bit contradictory I know

Tests we decided on:
1)Going to shoot one of his barnes in my cz550 and inspect it

2) reloads - sending mild/medium reloads to Noah in virgin hornady, norma and his cases reloaded.

Crossing my fingers some of the other ammunition works!

 

[Noah Hutchens]

UPDATE!

I was able to source some factory Federal ammunition loaded with Trophy Bonded Bear Claws to try in the rifle to see if it had the same issues as the Barnes.

Took it out to my property today and fired 12 rounds and all 12 went flawlessly. After firing there was no resistance on the lever and rifle opened up just as it does when empty. I shot 6 rounds flawlessly and then tried two more rounds of the Barnes and the same thing happened where it Locked up the rifle and took tremendous force to push the lever and open the barrels. Then back to the federal and with no issues whatsoever.

I was extremely happy with the regulation of the Federal ammunition in my rifle. I was shooting around 40 yards or so off hand(staring into the sun no less) and I was hitting the 6in steel gong every time with using irons and then using the red dot as well. I will say that before I shot the double rifle I was shooting a few of my other rifles with my new suppressor that just came in and was very happy with the reduction in recoil…… too happy it seemed as when I shot the double for the first time today I doubled it…. Didn’t realize it at first but thought to myself, “damn that hurt” and then open the rifle and saw both rounds fired and realized what had happened. Suffice it to say the next 10 rounds I held the rifle more solidly and wrapped my entire finger around the trigger “hooking” it to make sure it didn’t slip back and it didn’t double again.

Seems to me the rifle likes the federal ammunition a lot and HATES the Barnes ammunition, but it gave me a sigh of relief to know that the rifle will actually shoot some ammunition without issues. Time to sell the 4 boxes of Barnes I bought….