The Rumors From All Those Years Ago Really Were True

Another thought, I don’t think this is a compressed load & it looks to be identical powder as loaded in the cartridge shown in first post, no sign of any deterioration from sitting 60yrs or so in a normal house in a dry cupboard, I suspect that lot wasn’t looked after at all & has been “stored” in advise conditions.

Also if he was comparing Soft Nose to Solids I would fully expect the Solids to enter the bore more fully as most Solids are slightly undersized to compensate for the hardness & no give in the projectile, hopefully to lessen pressure ?

Emm well, just went & measured a bunch of .458 Solids, Hornady both F.M.J RN one lot Encapsulated & Woodleigh Steel tips 500gr & the buggers are all .458 so ?

Ok then thought hell I’m parroting what I have read as well so went & pulled a Vintage Kynoch Steel Cored .450NE 480gr bullet & that bastard was .458 also maybe not true then that Solids were/are slightly lesser diameter, at least not .45 caliber ?

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The 480gr .450NE Bullet.

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Hunter-Habib said:
My late friend, Tanzanian white hunter Terry Irwin often told me that the Winchester brand bullets for their .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition were inconsistently sized. And that this frequently impacted terminal ballistic performance. My white hunter Lionell Palmer told me the same thing during a Safari to Botswana in 1975. I didn’t actually think much about it, all these years until today.

A friend (who owns an FN Mauser Series 300 chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum) recently bought a ton of vintage ammunition at an auction. Amongst the ammunition variants, were pre 1969 Winchester Super Speed 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads and 510Gr soft nosed factory loads.
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The powder inside the cartridges (Winchester ball powder) had predictably clumped (hardly surprising in compressed loads due to the .458 Winchester Magnum’s relatively small case capacity). So the bullets were pulled for reloading.
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I remembered Terry telling me that he used to insert .458 Winchester Magnum bullets into the ogive of his rifle and found that the Winchester brand bullets used to go into varying depths (while those of Remington or Hornady brand were all consistently sized). So I asked my friend to run similar tests with two boxes of Winchester brand FMJ solids and soft points.

I was genuinely surprised to see that Terry & Lionell were right all along. The bullets really do go into different lengths into the rifle’s ogive. Even bullets found within the same box of cartridges. By contrast, Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid 500Gr flat nosed factory loads had bullets which were all going into the same depth consistently. This explains why Winchester eventually gave up producing their own .458 Winchester Magnum bullets and began outsourcing from Hornady in 1970.
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Aside from giving you all this historical anecdote, my point is this- A caliber is only as bad or as good as the bullets & powder which you load in the cartridge. Contrary to the hatred directed towards it in some circles, the .458 Winchester Magnum is not a bad caliber. And definitely can hold it’s own today (even though it’s not amongst my favorites). With proper bullets and powders, it can consistently be used against the Big Five of Africa without any ill effects.

Back in those days, our favorite recipe for the .458 Winchester Magnum used to be 500Gr Hornady bullets in fresh hand loads employing extruded powders (assembled shortly before the Safari and whatever was leftover after the Safari was always pulled apart for future use). Today, employing 450Gr-480Gr bullets in the .458 Winchester Magnum (along with modern extruded powders) has made it a very suitable contender for dangerous game hunting. The 450Gr Barnes TSX factory loading remains a personal favorite of mine for use against Cape buffalo or hippopotamus.

I’m definitely not asking any of you to have a new custom rifle built to order in .458 Winchester Magnum. But next time you see a beautiful rifle on the secondhand market which is chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum, don’t let the caliber deter you from buying it.

And please, for the love of God… if you plan on using vintage ammunition/bullets on a costly African Safari (especially for dangerous game hunting)… reconsider your choices very carefully. You are paying top Dollar to go hunt in the Dark Continent. The bullet is the only thing which actually touches the game. Invest in good quality fresh modern ammunition/bullets.

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The Author With Cape Buffalo Shot By Him With Belgian .458 Winchester Magnum Boxlock Ejector Double Rifle, Ugalla Game Reserve, Tanzania (1978)
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Great perspective. I’ve read that the 458 Win Mag was intended to replicate the ballistics of the venerable 450 NE 3 1/4, for which the standard loading was 480 grains.

I’ve often wondered if they had just used a 480 grain bullet and relieved the powder compression slightly, if it would have prevented the powder from clumping and produced better velocity, more reliably. Decades of consternation about the 458 Win Mag could have been adverted.
 
318AE said:
Great perspective. I’ve read that the 458 Win Mag was intended to replicate the ballistics of the venerable 450 NE 3 1/4, for which the standard loading was 480 grains.

I’ve often wondered if they had just used a 480 grain bullet and relieved the powder compression slightly, if it would have prevented the powder from clumping and produced better velocity, more reliably. Decades of consternation about the 458 Win Mag could have been adverted.
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Have to agree with that, but of course, they wanted one better, a few more FPE with the heavier bullet.
I had no trouble with my .458 2" heavily compressed loads, but then my ammo was not stored improperly for smokeless propellant. Heat, then damp, etc, not good. Cool and dry. Lots of that in B.C.
 
I may have missed it, but have any been checked with a micrometer? Not calipers. That is ths only way to truly know if they vary in diameter.
 
Mics do make measuring more precise, but like calipers, they must be set to zero, or checked before using. I've had calipers that reduce the messurement when pressing on the wheel harder. I no longer use those.
 
miket1 said:
I may have missed it, but have any been checked with a micrometer? Not calipers. That is ths only way to truly know if they vary in diameter.
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Hey @miket1 it’s good to see you posting again, since you moved up to the mountains
Haven’t seen you much ,
 
pilar said:
I probably don’t know dukey, but 60 year old ammunition imo should be considered for the trash bins, I had some M1 30 carbine and British 303 WW2 vintage ammunition that was garbage ( corrosive primer and stick propellant that looked like sawdust)
That ammunition has reached the expiration date by 40 years?
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The production date of most ammunition has no bearing on how well it shoots in my opinion. It doesn't go stale like bread.

The initial quality of the ammo, plus how it is stored are much bigger factors in its performance.

The vintage 458 Win ammo in question used compressed loads in an effort to reach velocity levels not normally obtained in the 458 Win case. Combine this with storage in a hot humid environment and it's bound to end in trouble. I've always avoided compressed loads, as I feel if you need more velocity, it's better to use a larger cartridge.

I've shot ammunition that's nearly 100 years old, but was properly stored in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. While I was on active duty, it wasn't unusual to use explosives, ammo or mortar rounds well over 50 years old, especially from various Asian Allies.
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The U.S.S. New Jersey fired mk8 ammunition in Lebanon during the war in 1984 that was manufactured in 1944. It's not just age, it's how it's stored.
 
Sarg said:
Ok my friend, I tried all the 8 rounds I have left in the two .458Wins I have here & all went exactly the same amount into each muzzle.

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All measured exactly .452 just in front of the case mouth & the pulled bullet was exactly .458 at the base.

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Powder was free flowing (as I thought) no clumping & weight 67.5gr, which admittedly certainly isn’t a heavy load & could explain the sub 2000fps velocity ?

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Oh bullet weight is exactly 510grs
Of note is it doesn’t look to be a Winchester Ball Powder either & these are genuine all the same factory loaded rounds.
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Interesting. That powder looks similar to extruded H4831 which wouldn’t clump easily anyway. I wonder which extruded powder Winchester was using at that point in time? I would have assumed the ball powder which caused the clumping issues would have been Winchester 748 or similar back in the day?
 
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CoElkHunter said:
Interesting. That powder looks similar to extruded H4831 which wouldn’t clump easily anyway. I wonder which extruded powder Winchester was using at that point in time? I would have assumed the ball powder which caused the clumping issues would have been Winchester 748 or similar back in the day?
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Well it wasn’t Ball powder causing the clumping, actually Ball powder helped solve most of those issue, if they were actually real.

I dug out my cans of IMR powder & the closet by appearance is IMR 4320 but not exactly the same & 67grs of that did about the same velocity as I recorded.
As I said most of this stuff is hear say with no actual proof, quite amazing the story’s I hear from even PHs I work with, example, I’m tracking (actually rowing up a side creek from a lake) a wounded Hippo with a young apprentice guide/Ph, I said I’d like a .577NE double over my .458Win at this range in thick reeds when it’s feet more than yards, he says he’d prefer a 12ga with slugs ??? WTF he said he didn’t like the .458Win but the Lott was Ok, I asked why (I knew he had never used either) he said Dan (our Boss & not his name) told him it was crap caliber but Lott was good (oh Hippo was wounded by a Lott) strange I thought as never knew him to have used one either.
When we got back to camp I asked “Dan” about this & he said when he was doing control work (he never did) he was issued one & it failed, I said shit how did it fail, he said the bullets failed, I said the projectiles & he says yes, fell apart !
But the .458 Lott was Ok, I said you realise they both take the same projectiles so if it was the bullets fault it would fail in either calibre ?
He didn’t want to hear that, whole story was Bullshit, how many hunters & Phs had he infected with his “Expert” knowledge ??
 
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It would be interesting to see what the base of the bullet measures with a micrometer. I suspect there would be very little variation. The base is where the magic happens.
 
318AE said:
Great perspective. I’ve read that the 458 Win Mag was intended to replicate the ballistics of the venerable 450 NE 3 1/4, for which the standard loading was 480 grains.

I’ve often wondered if they had just used a 480 grain bullet and relieved the powder compression slightly, if it would have prevented the powder from clumping and produced better velocity, more reliably. Decades of consternation about the 458 Win Mag could have been adverted.
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Asquare made a 465 grain his Triad , they were very compact and worked very well in not only .458s but .450s of various types also .
 
Yeah.....it's a good thing powder, projectiles and quality control greatly improved since then. I love the 458 Win mag1
 
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Hi - the only (best) method of sending you the .375/06IMP data is with photographing my book notes. My camera died so the only way I can do it is with my phone. To do that, I would need your e-mail address, as this
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