Choosing a Double Rifle

The .500 NE 3” is a very popular chambering. Hornady offers it in factory ammo. The .500 NE operates at 41,000 psi. The .470 operates at 39,000 psi.
 
Schüler Jumbo said:
The .500 NE 3” is a very popular chambering. Hornady offers it in factory ammo. The .500 NE operates at 41,000 psi. The .470 operates at 39,000 psi.
Click to expand...
I don’t know how to quantify popularity. I have 7 friends with 470 NE and none with a 500. Thad an admittedly small sample. My anecdotal experience is that something about the 509 tips a scale and a bit fewer people buy it.

There is no way to verify it. I doubt kreighoff or heym would ever release their sales numbers.
 
No manufacturer would offer factory ammo if the chambering was not sellable. Hence, .500 NE 3”,
.470 NE, 450/400 NE etc. are factory offerings. That says it all. Why would Merkel offer a .500 NE and Chapuis would not is the obvious question.
 
Schüler Jumbo said:
No manufacturer would offer factory ammo if the chambering was not sellable. Hence, .500 NE 3”,
.470 NE, 450/400 NE etc. are factory offerings. That says it all. Why would Merkel offer a .500 NE and Chapuis would not is the obvious question.
Click to expand...
If you’re implying something please state it outright. I believe the reason Chapuis doesn’t is an economic decision. Tooling up for an other caliber isn’t worth it in their estimation. They may not be right but that’s their choice based on their economic projections.
 
Double rifles are in two categories; what are called “stopping rifles” and “non-stopping rifles”. .450” and up are Stopping Calibers. The .500 NE is the epitome of a Stopping Rifle. I have a a half dozen friend with .500’s. I’ve hunted with Geoff Broom who was famous for his .500 double. Not offering a .500 when you offer a .470 is not about economics, it’s about engineering. Nothing about double rifles are economics based.
 
Schüler Jumbo said:
Double rifles are in two categories; what are called “stopping rifles” and “non-stopping rifles”. .450” and up are Stopping Calibers. The .500 NE is the epitome of a Stopping Rifle. I have a a half dozen friend with .500’s. I’ve hunted with Geoff Broom who was famous for his .500 double. Not offering a .500 when you offer a .470 is not about economics, it’s about engineering. Nothing about double rifles are economics based.
Click to expand...
You’re still not being clear. Are you saying Chapuis rifles can handle the 500 from an engineering standpoint?

I don’t care one way or another or consider is a slight of that’s the case I just don’t understand the implication when you won’t say it outright.
 
Let’s try this Russ 16: explain to us how the Chapuis double rifle’s shotgun action and barrel joining method handles the radial force, axial force, and circumferential force encompassing the ignition of a cartridge. Is that clear enough for you? There is without question a market for the legendary .500 NE, .500 Jeff, .505 Rimless NE etc.
 
One Day... said:
A different take: Are you buying a rifle or a myth?

Let us dispose with the disclaimer: I have owned two side by side doubles in "African" calibers: a pre WW II Belgian guild Jules Bury in 450#2 that I kept for several decades but that George Caswell at Champlin loved so much that I ended up selling it to him when ammo became too much of a problem, and a modern Krieghoff in .470 NE. As well as a couple over/under in "European" calibers 7x65R and 9.3x74R. So the following does not come from someone who dreams of buying a double but cannot do it and therefore trashes them. Matter of fact I sold my K gun .470 on this forum not so long ago.

As far as hunting goes, I hunted lion, elephant and buffalo with a double, so here again, without being an expert, I have been there and done it.

Here is the first hard truth: most clients who purchase and hunt with a double would be MUCH better served with a bolt action rifle:
  1. Doubles offer very limited flexibility in the field. 50 yards to maybe 75 yards is already a pretty long shot for most folks off hand and with iron sights.
  2. The cost of ammunition is prohibitive.
  3. The recoil of .45+ calibers is beyond many's comfort threshold.
  4. As a result of cost and recoil most folks do not practice enough to become even remotely proficient with their rifle, never mind reliable.
  5. Yes, the fabled instant second shot is there for charging animals, for the darn few and far between who are practiced enough to use it, but the reality is that darn few clients belong to that club, and most are better served with 4 rounds in a bolt action for follow up on a fleeting wounded animal.
Buying a double and becoming proficient with it is a commitment. Few things scare a PH more than a first time client showing up with his brand new double. And rightfully so...

If the word "budget" is even part of the discussion, and if you have never been to Africa, Dublinpiper90, here is the second hard truth: spend the $12,000 going on a safari.

I too was part of the crowd, the very large crowd, of folks who had for years DG rifles in the safe but did not go to Africa because the budget could not allow BOTH rifles AND safari. This is not the best use of limited disposable income.

You mention owning a .458 Lott, Dublinpiper90, there is nothing a .470 double will do that a reliable .458 Lott will not do. You have all you need. Reloading for it is simple and foolproof, and you can practice endlessly (I mean several hundred rounds per year!) with soft loads and light bullets until you are truly proficient with it.

The sad reality is that the days of Out Of Africa are gone, and you will never "own a farm in Africa". Bury happily the ghost of Denys Finch Hatton, and go on small PG safari with your deer rifle; on large PG safari with your elk rifle, and on DG safari with a .375 H&H unless you really know how to use your .458 Lott, and you will be much happier.

My own story is that I finally became honest with myself after a few years of owning a Blaser R8 and finally admitted that the R8 with its .458 Lott barrel fits me as well or better than any double ever did; that my second shot is about as fast with the R8 as it was with the K gun (I cycle the action while the rifle is in recoil); that a 1-6x24 scope is invaluable past 75 yards; and that the several thousands of .22 LR and .223 (not counting the .257 Wby, .300 Wby and .375 H&H) that I shoot every year with the R8 have made me infinitely more proficient with it than the few boxes of .470 per year I used to shoot ever made me with the K gun. I happily sold it, do not regret it, and put the money on a Leopard hunt.

I know that this is not the answer that most will provide, and some may scorn it, but old hands may also nod their head in agreement :)
Click to expand...
I have never shot the big five, but I think you are absolutely right. However, nothing can replace the feeling of dropping a long metal bullet into the barrel of a broken double rifle and its soft folding. The sound of that folding of the double barrel is the sign that the hunt has begins! Unrepeatable feeling! :D
Jupi for doble barells!!
 
Schüler Jumbo said:
Let’s try this Russ 16: explain to us how the Chapuis double rifle’s shotgun action and barrel joining method handles the radial force, axial force, and circumferential force encompassing the ignition of a cartridge. Is that clear enough for you? There is without question a market for the legendary .500 NE, .500 Jeff, .505 Rimless NE etc.
Click to expand...
I don’t have any idea and don’t claim to. And frankly I don’t care if it can or can’t, although I have no reason to believe it can’t.

I just get frustrated with the way that you imply that it can’t but don’t in any way explain your reasons for that belief. The whole point of this discussion is for those of us who don’t know to be enlightened. So if there is some reason that it can’t handle it I would appreciate the explanation. I absolutely hate when people hint at things rather than stating them outright.

That doesn’t change my opinion that the .470 has more demand than the .500.
 
Dublinpiper90 said:
Ok, Ive been looking and comparing for some time now and I’m looking to prepare for my 1st double rifle, I’ve herd a lot of negative about rizzini, and Sabattis, I want a good rifle but it doesn’t have to be over the top with engraving and all just a no nonsense hunting rifle and I would like to stay in the 12k and under range , 2nd off as far as a caliber goes I’m torn between a .450/.400 3” or a .470NE I do feel like the .470 would be fitting as I would want this rifle as a buffalo gun primarily but also want a versatile r hunting rifle. I do own a .458 lott but ould probably pass it along once I obtain the double. Thanks for all your help in advance
Click to expand...
The .450/400 is gaining popularity for a good reason. It is a killer and kicks less than some .375's. I have both .470 and .450/400 barrels for my Kgun. I have some bad neck trouble and can just shoot the .450/400 so much better. I think you should find what you like and can afford, shoot it a lot, and have JJ Perodeau look it over if there are any concerns before going in a DG hunt. Do not worry about ammo availability just make a plan.
 
To help Russ 16 I started to look in-depth for online technical specifications and action dimensions for Chapuis. The Chapuis website does not offer technical write-up’s that I could find other than to mention shotgun actions. However, a general online search did turn up excerpts that both Merkel and Heym each manufacture their own double rifle actions and barrel sets in-house. And, both Merkel and Heym sell actions and barrels to other double rifle manufactures. As we all know Heym and Merkel both offer the magnificent .500 NE. Heym also offers the tremendous .577 NE. Heym and Merkel websites are forthcoming with engineering specs.
 
Rare Breed said:
One Day has been and continues to be very wise! Take what he says for truth and experience…having said that though please don’t misunderstand him…I am a very classical nostalgic Africa hunter!!! My experience in Africa fulfills that because I look for and find it which is not always easy. I am blessed to have both my favorite DR and bolt action rifles for any and all DG and PG. I love shooting my DR and do so each and every month to his point becoming very accurate and reliable with it. Let’s face it whatever you take your PH will find out fast “can you shoot it”. He also is right about his comments on “budget” but each person has to decide both what that is and are you giving up something. Again I have been blessed to set my vision for a 7 year time frame to take the Big 5 ( need my leopard) and all the PG I want having the three rifles I want with all reloading supplies. For me the secret is only having one passion which is Africa…that’s it not golf or fishing or anything else. I also am a huge planner with spreadsheets. I am blessed to hunt Africa each year the key is answer his points which are well made. 1. what is your budget for guns, reloading and hunts? 2. Are you having to decide on either the gun or the hunt? If so do the hunt with a bolt action but hopefully you can do both.
Click to expand...

Amen :)

If finances allowed, I would certainly have a Holland & Holland .500/465 on the rack, beside an original double square bridge Mauser-actioned Rigby .416, alongside probably an original Jeffery .404 and an original Gibbs .505, and a few others, just in case I had to face a unexpected charge in the cozy confine of the gunroom one late winter day by the fireplace.

But truth be told, like Red Leg -- who actually does have them all -- I am not sure I would take them to Africa too often, so convinced I have become that the R8 and 3 barrels is the way to go.
 
Last edited:
Schüler Jumbo said:
The .500 NE 3” is a very popular chambering. Hornady offers it in factory ammo. The .500 NE operates at 41,000 psi. The .470 operates at 39,000 psi.
Click to expand...

That is correct indeed, but ONLY Hornady offers .500 NE factory ammo, compared to Barnes, Federal, Nosler, Swift, etc. who offer .470 NE factory ammo.

Truth be told, this was always the problem, and Steve Hornady single-handedly resurrected the .500 NE.

Have enough .500 NE rifles been sold in the last 10 years so that when Steve dies, and is commitment to DG calibers dies with him, the next controlling interest at Hornady will keep loading the .500?

The same also applies very exactly to the .450/400...

Schüler Jumbo said:
No manufacturer would offer factory ammo if the chambering was not sellable. Hence, .500 NE 3”,
.470 NE, 450/400 NE etc. are factory offerings. That says it all. Why would Merkel offer a .500 NE and Chapuis would not is the obvious question.
Click to expand...

I promise you that when Steve Hornady started loafing for the .500 NE everybody thought he was crazy... I only wished, he had done it for the .450 #2...

Schüler Jumbo said:
Double rifles are in two categories; what are called “stopping rifles” and “non-stopping rifles”. .450” and up are Stopping Calibers. The .500 NE is the epitome of a Stopping Rifle. I have a a half dozen friend with .500’s. I’ve hunted with Geoff Broom who was famous for his .500 double. Not offering a .500 when you offer a .470 is not about economics, it’s about engineering. Nothing about double rifles are economics based.
Click to expand...

I shall respectfully disagree on this one... Truth be told, these is no meaningful mechanical difference (and very little effectiveness-on-game difference) between a .500 and a .470.
Some prefer the .500 because it is a "bigger gun" and that is entirely fine and legitimate, but 100 years of well documented experience indicate that both do the job. I personally preferred the .470 because of ammo availability, but I completely understand and agree that you may prefer the .500 because this is all about personal emotions.

FYI Chapuis does everything in house. If you Google, you can likely find a couple videos of their factory in France. They actually are one of the, if not the most, modern doubles factories in Europe. I will try to unearth the video I am thinking about...
 
Last edited:
.470 seems to be the most popular caliber, I was concerned with recoil when buying my first double, having now shot a number of different doubles I personally think that recoil is very similar and not a big issue. I have not shot a .450/400 and understand that many people like this caliber for softer recoil.

I purchased a used Krieghoff big five double in .416/500 NE and like both the caliber and the safety / cocking system, the gun shoots amazingly well and was easy to fit a red dot sight to (important to me). I've shot .450 and .470, doubles they were all similar in recoil.

As others have said a Chapuis is closest to your budget and should come with a red dot mount included. Heym seem to have increased in price both new and used and I'm guessing are out of your budget.

Good luck in your search.
 
One Day... said:
That is correct indeed, but ONLY Hornady offers .500 NE factory ammo, compared to Barnes, Federal, Nosler, Swift, etc. who offer .470 NE factory ammo.

Truth be told, this was always the problem, and Steve Hornady single-handedly resurrected the .500 NE.

Have enough .500 NE rifles been sold in the last 10 years so that when Steve dies, and is commitment to DG calibers dies with him, the next controlling interest at Hornady will keep loading the .500?

The same also applies very exactly to the .450/400...
Click to expand...

Woah!!! I stand corrected. A quick search on Midway informs me that Federal, Barnes and Swift now offer factory .500 NE ammo. This is new!!! (maybe relatively new, I do not know, having not looked into it for a number of years).

Looks like the .500 NE has turned the corner, in which case the ammo availability argument in favor of the .470 NE is now obsolete. This is great!!!

Conversely, I only see Hornady for the .450/400 factory ammo, so the argument apparently still stands in disfavor of the .450/400, which is too bad because it is the lower recoil option if folks are wise enough to get it in a still 10.5 to 11 lbs. rifle.



PS: in ALL cases, based on my own experience with the .450#2 -- that regrettably did not get resurrected although it was arguably the better round of them all due to its very low pressure -- the word to the wise, for the many who do not reload for their double (it is a bit tricky), is to buy (progressively if finances dictate) 500 rounds of your double rifle's preferred ammo and store them, just in case markets change again. That should last you a lifetime of DG hunting.
 
Last edited:
One Day... said:
There it is, 14 years old but still very relevant:

Click to expand...
One Day, thanks for taking your time to dig up the video. I could not tell from the video how Chapuis joins barrels and lumps? Also could not see details of the action other than it being a box lock. How are the barrels joined? And, does Chapuis utilize a Greener Cross Bolt or Rising Bite or Doll’s Head to counter rotational inertia?
 
Schüler Jumbo said:
One Day, thanks for taking your time to dig up the video. I could not tell from the video how Chapuis joins barrels and lumps? Also could not see details of the action other than it being a box lock. How are the barrels joined? And, does Chapuis utilize a Greener Cross Bolt or Rising Bite or Doll’s Head to counter rotational inertia?
Click to expand...
I’m a bit confused. If you don’t know the answer to that then how are you able to say that the Chapuis can’t handle the 500?

Again I don’t know if it can or not and don’t really care either way. I’m just a bit bothered by you implying that it can’t but now Dayi g you don’t know its design. I wouldn’t suggest that it isn’t or is strong enough unless I had a strong knowledge of the gun.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Members online

... and 1245 more.
Total: 70,215 (members: 1,295, guests: 68,920)

Forum statistics

Threads
67,007
Messages
1,485,269
Members
143,535
Latest member
MarkusToro
 

 

 

Proudly sponsored by

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Daryl S
Daryl S wrote on mgstucson's profile.
Hi - the only (best) method of sending you the .375/06IMP data is with photographing my book notes. My camera died so the only way I can do it is with my phone. To do that, I would need your e-mail address, as this
new Android phone is too complicated to upload to my desk computer, which would be easier and to down-grade, reduce the file sizes.
Best wishes
Daryl
•••
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
Golden wildebeest cow cull hunt

•••
swashington
swashington wrote on Hyde's profile.
Hey Steve, This is Steve Washington we met at KMG last year. I am interested in your Winchester. Would love to speak with you about it. I work third shift and I cannot take a phone with me to work. Let me know a good time to call during one of your mornings. My phone is [redacted]. Live in Florida so I have to account for the time difference.
Look forward to hearing from you.
•••
R
Ray B wrote on woodsman1991's profile.
Hi @woodsman1991 -
I'm Ray [redacted]

Reply with name/address and I'll get a check into tomorrow's mail.
•••
Boela
Boela wrote on Slider's profile.
Good day, Slider.

Do you by any chance have any 500NE brass left that you are willing to part ways with?

Best regards,
Boela Bekker.
•••

Share this page

 
Top