Choosing a Double Rifle

[analog_peninsula]

Since we love caliber discussions, I'll simply toss in that I deliberately picked a .500/.416 because I believe the extra 150-200 fps it provides over the .450/.400 contributes to a greater consistency of bullet penetration. The round is still a few fps slower than the original .416 Rigby loading, but I doubt the real world difference from the original factory loads is more than 50 fps, give or take 15 fps. My intent was to duplicate the enviable consistency of the original .416 Rigby loads in a double rifle.

 

[PCC600]

That is correct indeed, but ONLY Hornady offers .500 NE factory ammo, compared to Barnes, Federal, Nosler, Swift, etc. who offer .470 NE factory ammo.

Truth be told, this was always the problem, and Steve Hornady single-handedly resurrected the .500 NE.

Have enough .500 NE rifles been sold in the last 10 years so that when Steve dies, and is commitment to DG calibers dies with him, the next controlling interest at Hornady will keep loading the .500?

The same also applies very exactly to the .450/400...



I promise you that when Steve Hornady started loafing for the .500 NE everybody thought he was crazy... I only wished, he had done it for the .450 #2...



I shall respectfully disagree on this one... Truth be told, these is no meaningful mechanical difference (and very little effectiveness-on-game difference) between a .500 and a .470.
Some prefer the .500 because it is a "bigger gun" and that is entirely fine and legitimate, but 100 years of well documented experience indicate that both do the job. I personally preferred the .470 because of ammo availability, but I completely understand and agree that you may prefer the .500 because this is all about personal emotions.

FYI Chapuis does everything in house. If you Google, you can likely find a couple videos of their factory in France. They actually are one of the, if not the most, modern doubles factories in Europe. I will try to unearth the video I am thinking about...

I was shooting factory Norma 500NE solids and soft points last week . Whenever I have used Hornady ammo it shows much lower speeds ( circa 50-100 fps) on my chronograph compared with the Norma . The Rigby dealer in Australia always has Norma 500NE ammo available and my other local gunshop regularly has Hornady in stock . I like the 470NE , prefer the 475no2 Jeffery but like the 500 even more ( have 2). It is a lot of gun. I also really like the 450/400NE 3inch. Got 2 of these but they are in no way comparable to a 470+. I cannot comment on Merkel , Chapuis . No experience with them . With doubles you need to learn how to reload and you need a chronograph . If you get one humming then you will have a superb weapon for hunting ranges not exceeding 100 metres .

 

[Dublinpiper90]

A different take: Are you buying a rifle or a myth?

Let us dispose with the disclaimer: I have owned two side by side doubles in "African" calibers: a pre WW II Belgian guild Jules Bury in 450#2 that I kept for several decades but that George Caswell at Champlin loved so much that I ended up selling it to him when ammo became too much of a problem, and a modern Krieghoff in .470 NE. As well as a couple over/under in "European" calibers 7x65R and 9.3x74R. So the following does not come from someone who dreams of buying a double but cannot do it and therefore trashes them. Matter of fact I sold my K gun .470 on this forum not so long ago.

As far as hunting goes, I hunted lion, elephant and buffalo with a double, so here again, without being an expert, I have been there and done it.

Here is the first hard truth: most clients who purchase and hunt with a double would be MUCH better served with a bolt action rifle:

1. Doubles offer very limited flexibility in the field. 50 yards to maybe 75 yards is already a pretty long shot for most folks off hand and with iron sights.
2. The cost of ammunition is prohibitive.
3. The recoil of .45+ calibers is beyond many's comfort threshold.
4. As a result of cost and recoil most folks do not practice enough to become even remotely proficient with their rifle, never mind reliable.
5. Yes, the fabled instant second shot is there for charging animals, for the darn few and far between who are practiced enough to use it, but the reality is that darn few clients belong to that club, and most are better served with 4 rounds in a bolt action for follow up on a fleeting wounded animal.

Buying a double and becoming proficient with it is a commitment. Few things scare a PH more than a first time client showing up with his brand new double. And rightfully so...

If the word "budget" is even part of the discussion, and if you have never been to Africa, Dublinpiper90, here is the second hard truth: spend the $12,000 going on a safari.

I too was part of the crowd, the very large crowd, of folks who had for years DG rifles in the safe but did not go to Africa because the budget could not allow BOTH rifles AND safari. This is not the best use of limited disposable income.

You mention owning a .458 Lott, Dublinpiper90, there is nothing a .470 double will do that a reliable .458 Lott will not do. You have all you need. Reloading for it is simple and foolproof, and you can practice endlessly (I mean several hundred rounds per year!) with soft loads and light bullets until you are truly proficient with it.

The sad reality is that the days of Out Of Africa are gone, and you will never "own a farm in Africa". Bury happily the ghost of Denys Finch Hatton, and go on small PG safari with your deer rifle; on large PG safari with your elk rifle, and on DG safari with a .375 H&H unless you really know how to use your .458 Lott, and you will be much happier.

My own story is that I finally became honest with myself after a few years of owning a Blaser R8 and finally admitted that the R8 with its .458 Lott barrel fits me as well or better than any double ever did; that my second shot is about as fast with the R8 as it was with the K gun (I cycle the action while the rifle is in recoil); that a 1-6x24 scope is invaluable past 75 yards; and that the several thousands of .22 LR and .223 (not counting the .257 Wby, .300 Wby and .375 H&H) that I shoot every year with the R8 have made me infinitely more proficient with it than the few boxes of .470 per year I used to shoot ever made me with the K gun. I happily sold it, do not regret it, and put the money on a Leopard hunt.

I know that this is not the answer that most will provide, and some may scorn it, but old hands may also nod their head in agreement

I appreciate your outlook, doubles are nice and more costly to shoot, I do feel like to really learn your double is 1. Take the time to shoot it and shoot it correctly but also is to reload your ammo for what your targeting. I do deeply feel like the initial purchase is just the beginning, Ive been studying and still learning the Lott which is a Ruger RSM, it’s a great rifle am I ready to go to Africa with it, No, I really want to master using it with iron sights, A lot of folks may would take offense to your reply but I don’t I’d much rather go on a hunt than to have a safari in the gun safe. I appreciate your reply and perspective on hard earned dollars and where you can enjoy it most.

 

[Rare Breed]

While we are on the subject I would be more concerned by far making sure whatever you choose has your LOP and is heavy enough to the caliber. I don’t care how good the gun is made you miss these two things and you will be truly miserable

 

[Pondoro]

This work very nicely for me..a .470 with a scope with red dot..very fast to use.. When the bush is REALLY dense I just remove the scope and use the irons.

The .470 really crumple buffalo..

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

By Russ 16: “I’m a bit confused.”

That we can agree on.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Amen

If finances allowed, I would certainly have a Holland & Holland .500/465 on the rack, beside an original double square bridge Mauser-actioned Rigby .416, alongside probably an original Jeffery .404 and an original Gibbs .505, and a few others, just in case I had to face a unexpected charge in the cozy confine of the gunroom one late winter day by the fireplace.

There was an original 416 for sale at DSC for a shockingly low price. I’m honestly surprised it made it to Saturday.

 

[One Day...]

There was an original 416 for sale at DSC for a shockingly low price. I’m honestly surprised it made it to Saturday.

Been there, done that. Not for me anymore

I am now using my money to go to Africa, not to dream about it

The way I look at it, I still have at least two or three safaris' worth in the gun safes that I need to convert to liquidity

God bless those who can afford to satisfy both their collector's and hunter's desires. My hunting desires supersede my collecting desires.

Truth be told, the catalyst for me was the R8 Pro PH. By the time I came to realize that it was the only rifle I was taking to Africa anymore, and that I enjoyed more going back to Africa with it than adding a classic to the collection, it became relatively easy to accept that the rust blue and linseed walnut sleeping in my safes were actually robbing me of months of Africa sun.

 

[Garciamarquez1918]

While we are on the subject I would be more concerned by far making sure whatever you choose has your LOP and is heavy enough to the caliber. I don’t care how good the gun is made you miss these two things and you will be truly miserable

And I'd add it should have proper drop at comb. Far better to have your face pushed than bashed.

 

[PCC600]

When Jerome at Rigby’s measured me up for my Shikari he was more focussed on cast than LOP .

 

[mms45]

Wha is considered the right drop for a double rifle?

 

[Garciamarquez1918]

Wha is considered the right drop for a double rifle?

That's going to be specific to the shooter. The right drop will be when you can put the rifle up firmly against your cheek and you're looking right perfectly down the sights. The rifle is pointing where you're looking.

Many older rifles, double and otherwise, have very low combs so when you put it up you're looking at the back of the action and you have to lift your cheek off the stock to see down the sights.

 

[Pondoro]

If you are in the prosess of choosing a double rifle, be honest with yourself.. What do you forsee to hunt in the coming years..? If buffalo and perhaps an elephant, then 450/400, 500/416, 450 or .470..

No need for a .500 unless you plan to hunt multiple ele..even then you may be better off with a .450/.470. The two latter also have devastating effect on cape buffalo..

Fit is much more important than caliber. This cannot be emphasized enough.. If you close your eyes and throw up your rifle the irons should be perfectly aligned.. If so you have the perfect tool to tackle DG up very close.