Rifle Stock design/Felt Recoil: Chassis versus Wood/Laminated stock??

[Gert Odendaal]

Members, in regards to the previous thread about "calibers as barrel burners" is quite an interesting thread and I have learned much from it...my next question being related to the subject of barrel burners....all of them has high , sharp , recoil...especially when shooting it all day long in shooting competitions.... While I am contemplating building myself a "barrel burner caliber like a 6.5x68S as a hunting rifles as well as a target /ghong shooting rifle....(( I am not consider building this rifle as a classic like the 8x68S I am building)) How much recoil can be take out of a hard recoil /flat shooting caliber rifle by building it rather on a chassis designed stock instead of a wood /laminated stock????
Chassis stock versus Wood /laminated stock?

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Members, I really would like to hear from members who do long range shooting ,using the chassis system as well as hunting with classic fast flat shooting rifles like the Weatherby /Lapua Magnum /.338 Win Mag rifles?
This will afford me an answer to make a choice between a normal classic rifle stock or a chassis system...I really would appreciate your input..I will appreciate any advice from members...

 

[Inline6]

My advice which is not popular here would be to add a break. Area 419, APA Gen 2 little Bastard and the top ones. They will take out a lot of recoil, that is the good. The bad is they are loud you must wear hearing protection.

 

[Inline6]

And to answer your question. The stock doesn't matter as much with felt recoil as much as the weight of the rig itself.

FWIW all my match rifles come in chassis form. (Accuracy International rifles)

 

[Gert Odendaal]

My advice which is not popular here would be to add a break. Area 419, APA Gen 2 little Bastard and the top ones. They will take out a lot of recoil, that is the good. The bad is they are loud you must wear hearing protection.

Inline, your input is much appreciated. Yes, even here is South Africa a muzzle brake is an unwelcome accessory on a rifle..
Question, looking at the design/material use to build a chassis system, it is a super light set up..where does the weight comes in, in comparison to a wood /laminated rifle stock??

 

[Inline6]

Accuracy International chassis are about 6 pounds. Has a lot of aluminum used in it. They will recoil straight back. Master Piece Arms makes some in the 5 pound plus range, along with weights that can be added to the chassis.

https://masterpiecearms.com

Most (not all) chassis are set up for rem 700 footprint actions. I'm not sure which action you are planning on but something to keep in mind. Most will also require an AICS style mag. COA length will dictate what will work.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Good members, always great to be in a discussion with fellow members. I am doing the planning on a long distance fun shooting rifle for shooting days at our rifle club and for my own fun experiences. I did some extensive reading and looking at many, many chassis designs that I can incorporate in my own design when milling the chassis from a solid bar of high grade aircraft aluminum . This will all be done freehand milling work with a lot of marking blue spray/veneer measuring techniques and .0001 mm accuracy milling work.

The project will consist of three parts..butt the stock , the action inletting and the front barrel part the butt stock will be attached to the action/barrel part by stainless steel bolt/nut system..

Weight distribution steel weights adjustment felt recoil dissipation system/add/adjusting weights to chassis.

The action inletting /barrel /front barrel chassis extension will be milled from a solid piece of high grade aluminum .
Caliber : Donor barreled action- HOWA .338 Win Mag caliber
Reamer : .338 Imperial Magnum (404 Jeffery neck down to .338 caliber
Go/no-go gauges
100x .338 Imperial head-stamped brass
Re-loading dies
Bi-pod
Scope: 5-25 x 50 First focal plane Military spec

Rationale :
Fun shooting long distance rifle design /long range practice shooting rifle personal use .
Duration build : 3 x years

I would like and welcome all opinions/suggestions and remarks as well as hearing from members who has a similar project in mind or already did a similar project...Let us make this a fun discussion and feel free to upload as many photos as possible on this thread.

 

[rookhawk]

Members, I really would like to hear from members who do long range shooting ,using the chassis system as well as hunting with classic fast flat shooting rifles like the Weatherby /Lapua Magnum /.338 Win Mag rifles?
This will afford me an answer to make a choice between a normal classic rifle stock or a chassis system...I really would appreciate your input..I will appreciate any advice from members...

@Gert Odendaal i have no idea, honestly. But both pictures above seem horrible for recoil.

if you want less recoil, a British dimension stick with ultra low mounts abs a straight tube scope is going to get the recoil down. Once you’re using big glass and have to take your face off the stock you’ve got problems. Once your eye is above the barrel line of the gun, the recoil doesn’t hinge upward on the shot but pushes all of it back at you.

Chassis or not, the scope and comb decide the recoil.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

@Gert Odendaal i have no idea, honestly. But both pictures above seem horrible for recoil.

if you want less recoil, a British dimension stick with ultra low mounts abs a straight tube scope is going to get the recoil down. Once you’re using big glass and have to take your face off the stock you’ve got problems. Once your eye is above the barrel line of the gun, the recoil doesn’t hinge upward on the shot but pushes all of it back at you.

Chassis or not, the scope and comb decide the recoil.

Rookhawk, yes, I believe you hit the nail on it`s head for sure...all the military chassis looks to be straight flat narrow designs ..I have just read about/saw a chassis developed to have weights attached to it at different parts of the chassis..man!!!! that makes a lot of great sense..so I will be doing exactly the same on the chassis ..especially fitting a mercury recoil tube in the long extended butt stock of the chassis ,..this will for sure not be a hunting rifle at all..with it will be a tent I will pitch to ensure I have shade the whole day since this will not be a rifle to pick up and walk around ...it will be a heavy but streamline chassis ...

 

[mdwest]

The chassis has an adjustable comb.. and most are pretty heavy.. and as @Gert Odendaal points out, some of the newer chassis are actually weight adjustable as well..

There is a reason modern military sniper rifles in heavy/long distance calibers like 338 Lapua, 375 Chey-Tac, etc are all using chassis systems these days... They are inherently accurate, incredibly adjustable to fit the shooter and the shooting situation.. and can easily be adjusted to shoot comfortably from the prone position or seated position, even in big, hard hitting calibers..

In terms of what mounts and what optic to use to get the scope in line with the eye and be properly used from the prone position.. thats an easy enough problem to solve as well.. theres tons and tons and tons of data available on websites and forums dedicated to long range shooting such as snipershide, longrangeonly, etc..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Midwest, great to hear from you..yes, this was the first time I saw and read about a chassis that is weighted, different weights you can distribute all over the chassis to negate the recoil and ensure great accuracy.
And I am busy the past seven years with this research to mill out my own chassis from solid high grade aircraft aluminum bar stock...so this new idea of thinking has only being think about recently..the past seven years I am looking at different chassis all over the world ..I have never see a weighted chassis system at all.
It seems it is the small things that makes the difference and not the big moves...

 

[rookhawk]

Rookhawk, yes, I believe you hit the nail on it`s head for sure...all the military chassis looks to be straight flat narrow designs ..I have just read about/saw a chassis developed to have weights attached to it at different parts of the chassis..man!!!! that makes a lot of great sense..so I will be doing exactly the same on the chassis ..especially fitting a mercury recoil tube in the long extended butt stock of the chassis ,..this will for sure not be a hunting rifle at all..with it will be a tent I will pitch to ensure I have shade the whole day since this will not be a rifle to pick up and walk around ...it will be a heavy but streamline chassis ...

@Gert Odendaal i think you live in a nation that allows Supressors? I’d spend $500-$800 on an A+++ quality suppressor that cuts 70% of recoil as first priority if your country allows them.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

@Gert Odendaal i think you live in a nation that allows Supressors? I’d spend $500-$800 on an A+++ quality suppressor that cuts 70% of recoil as first priority if your country allows them.

Rookhawk, some interesting information..I am considering buying a Bartlein barrel /or a Brux barrel..look atwhat the comment is in regards to using supressors on long distance rifles :
Do shooting suppressors have an effect on barrel life?
Yes they do. On a gas gun it can shorten barrel life as much as 50%. It does shorten bolt gun barrel life but we don’t have hard numbers on that. What happens is the suppressor is keeping more of the fouling inside the bore of the barrel and with this happening it shortens the barrel life. On the gas guns it also accelerates the wear of the gas port. Which will also lead to bullet failure and damage to the suppressor

 

[Gert Odendaal]

( Bartlein rifle barrel company )
Here is an interesting development in barrel technology I was not aware of at all:
What is the "T" Style rifling?
We call it Transitional rifling. Some will call it gain twist, progressive twist or incremental twist. We cut rifle virtually any twist into a barrel (subject to tooling etc…). We can start the twist out at 1-14 and end up at 1-7 and have it uniformly increase from the breech to muzzle. Also we can increase it very slowly say from 1-7.5 at the breech to a 1-7 at the muzzle.

Some say bullets with the driving bands benefit from it as it doesn’t damage the driving bands as much. Also some have proven with lead bullets that just increasing the twist by as little as a .5 of an inch increase uniformly thru out the length of the barrels will help accuracy. We have the capability to provide any twist per length of barrel for the customer. We have not tested every possible combination of calibers bullets etc…. we can give our recommendations on things we hear, and barrels we shoot etc…

I’ll quote what Pope (Pope was one of the greatest barrel makers from a bygone era. His barrels along with Schalk who he learned from and gives credit to and Schoyen, and Zischang made barrels for the Schutzenfest type of guns/shooting in the late 1800’s to early 1900’s) said around a 100 years ago first. “The advantages of the gain twists are three. 1st The twist being less at the breech, gives less friction to the bullet; it therefore starts easier and quicker, giving the powder less time to burn on in front of the chamber, which therefore fouls less than in a barrel of uniform twist at the same necessary muzzle pitch (twist). 2nd The slight change in angle of the rifling, in connection with choke bore (lapping choke bore of the barrel), effectually shuts off any gas escape of gas and prevents gas cutting, which is another case of imperfect delivery. 3rd It holds a muzzle loaded bullet in position much better than a uniform twist….


Now I will add some more to this. First off I feel this applies more to a lead bullet shooter than a jacketed bullet shooter but some of the why’s and why not’s do overlap. With a gain twist barrel the bullet cannot go to sleep. The rifling is always putting a fresh bite on the bullet as it goes down the bore of the barrel. This is why I always go back to a cut barrel being better than a button barrel. A cut barrel even with a straight twist is more uniform and consistent than a button barrel. With button rifling the button can hit a hard spot/soft spot in the steel and it will slow the button down. The button could speed back up and do the twist it’s suppose to be doing but either way you end up with a non uniform twist and it the twist keeps getting slower towards the muzzle. These two things are a accuracy killers and lead to consistency problems/fliers etc… I feel even a slight gain twist will help accuracy wise and not hurt a jacketed bullet shooter as well. For the most part I would say there is no velocity gain in a gain twist barrel with the same load. What has been conveyed to us and it goes back to Popes 1st point is that shooters have noticed that they can run a slightly heavier powder charge vs. a shooter with a straight twist barrel. As the bullet is starting easier into the rifling my only guess is the pressure isn’t spiking as fast or is delaying the pressure curve. Hence forth they can get more velocity out of the gain twist barrel. I feel pressure is pressure and that the twist doesn’t have anything to do with pressure for the most part but my only guess is that the gain twist like I said earlier is delaying the pressure curve. So you don’t see problems as early like hard bolt lift etc… Also it’s noted that even now a days our military in some 20mm and the 30mm barrels like on the A10 Warthog ground attack aircraft have gain twist type rifling in the barrels.

 

[mark-hunter]

Is original question still alive? (2019)
I think, these two stocks are not apples and apples.
Chasis is designed for prone position, and hunting stock for field use, and field positions, which mostly will be standing, less kneeling, occasionaly from rest, sitting (range or blind) and rarely prone.
Chasis is mostly prone, rarely everything else.
So the choice of stock should be based on how the rifle will be used, most of the time.

Then, depending on prefered use od rifle, there are options to reduce recoil. Adding weight (or heavier stock), adding mercury recoil reducers, adding muzzle brake.

Regarding the barrel making.... hmmm... The truth is: best (most accurate) long range rifles today will have either button rifled barrels, or cut barrels. I wouldnt jumpt to concluison which one is better (more accurate). It is close competition.
It is worth noting that Anshutz and Lothar Walther are button rifled barrels, and are in top class - up to olympics.

Twist rate and rifling?
regarding progressive twist rate, and-or various type of riflings, who knows what trully best really is today?
There are numoerous options and combinations.
Each barrel maker has its own theory. Its hard to say what is really best.
There is progressive rifling, polygonal rifling, multi radial rifling, 5R rifling, etc...
If choosing top class barrel maker, with reputation for accuracy, I dont think there is a wrong choice, in terms cut barrels or button rifled barrels

Harry pope barrels - I remember nice stories of JM Pyne in old Gun digest issues, based on Harry Pope character, by Lucian Carry (friend of H Pope)
But Pope, he was specific, I think he was optimising his rifling, based on muzzle loading, smaller caliber bullets, lead, under theory that loading from the muzzle, will seat the bullet propely in the center, what loading from breach can not accomlish. Anyway, special approach, not existing today.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

It: is taking shape, my idea of what I want to be able to build:

Good members, always great to be in a discussion with fellow members. I am doing the planning on a long distance fun shooting rifle for shooting days at our rifle club and for my own fun experiences. I did some extensive reading and looking at many, many chassis designs that I can incorporate in my own design when milling the chassis from a solid bar of high grade aircraft aluminum . This will all be done freehand milling work with a lot of marking blue spray/veneer measuring techniques and .0001 mm accuracy milling work.

The project will consist of three parts..butt the stock , the action inletting and the front barrel part the butt stock will be attached to the action/barrel part by stainless steel bolt/nut system..

Weight distribution steel weights adjustment felt recoil dissipation system/add/adjusting weights to chassis.

The action inletting /barrel /front barrel chassis extension will be milled from a solid piece of high grade aluminum .
Caliber : Donor barreled action- HOWA .338 Win Mag caliber
Reamer : .338 Imperial Magnum (404 Jeffery neck down to .338 caliber
Go/no-go gauges
100x .338 Imperial head-stamped brass
Re-loading dies
Bi-pod
Scope: 5-25 x 50 First focal plane Military spec

Rationale :
Fun shooting long distance rifle design /long range practice shooting rifle personal use .
Duration build : 3 x years

I would like and welcome all opinions/suggestions and remarks as well as hearing from members who has a similar project in mind or already did a similar project...Let us make this a fun discussion and feel free to upload as many photos as possible on this thread.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

As I see it the only other option to be able to get a great platform for the type of project we are discussing here is to use the .416 Rigby case as a long range rifle . But then you are looking at expensive brass , much heavier recoil, although that can be dealt with in using the correct chassis with adjustable counter weights fit onto the chassis as is my plan to do.
This will be a great platform like the .505 Gibbs used by the CheyTac company.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

My focus in this thread being the milling of a chassis as a long range platform for fun shooting ..not per sae the 404 Jeffery case design..still the .338 Imperial Magnum has a great history around it and this is one reason why I focus on the 404 Jeffery/10.75 x 73 S caliber to build these two scarce caliber rifles on it..and I perceive the 404 Jeffery/10.75 x 73 S as the perfect designed case and caliber of all time..the .375 H&H Magnum being second to it...

 

[IvW]

Warren builds aluminium stocks and also makes the best silencers available(Warrior), I have one each for my 22lr, 222Rem and 338 Lapua magnum.... can shoot the 338 Lapua same as 22lr...touch the trigger pop and see the hole through the scope..zero recoil.....

 

[Gert Odendaal]

IvW, I probably will have to buy a sound suppressor, I heard good things about Warrior products. The aluminum chassis is a project I wanted to build for the past seven years already..this is why I am commencing reading/research about this subject ...it really is something I am going to enjoy immensely..looking forward to the many hours in front of the Milling machine and doing some great TIG welding as well..I already bought myself a great quality MIG welder, next year will be the time to buy a great quality TIG welder to do aluminum welding with Argon shielded gas .

The .338 Imperial Magnum components is bought already and on it`s way this year already or next year if the COVID 19 situation keeps hunters to hunt this year in SA.

The components ;
.338 Imperial Magnum Reamer
.338 Imperial Magnum Go-/No Go gauges
.338 Imperial Magnum Re-loading dies
140 x head stamped high quality brass

Still to order :
Bartlein or Brux 32" Inch , 5 groove, heavy Palma straight taper progressive rifling twist or standard 1:10 twist barrel.....

The chassis I will build myself