Why avoid Hornady DG bullets and ammunition?

@Hank2211 , it's standard issue cup-and-core technology...no partition, no solid shank, etc.

@BRICKBURN , below shows the process of making a bullet the likes of which is being discussed (from Hornady's reloading manual, 3rd Edition).

View attachment 192002
I get that - I was looking for an explanation of why it doesn't do what it says it will do, at least not reliably.
 
Penetration and fragmentation are hardly exclusive. Tomahakers buff looked pretty dead! Not sure where you came up with the 150 number for yardage...depends on the cartridge. It is fun to take comments way out of context though...can't dispute that!
You used that yardage as a matter of fact. Give me a sec and I'll quote the post. My exact response was something along the lines of," who the hell hunts DG at 150 yards".
 
Thus making them shine when you are shooting around 150 yards. You seems to be confusing muzzle velocity with impact velocity. The 416 is a very apt 150 yard cartridge if I'm not mistaken.
Here it is
 
Pardon me for the miss quote of myself but here is my responses.
In what world does anyone shoot DG at 150 yards?????? If one likes to shoot DG 150 yards out from the bakkie they need to put their purse down, man up, and hunt the animal the way God intended DG to be hunted.
I guess if one was mobility impaired or something but otherwise that's animal shooting not DG hunting.

Hell the places I've hunted DG in Africa you couldn't see 150 yards through the brush if your life depended on it.
 
I get that - I was looking for an explanation of why it doesn't do what it says it will do, at least not reliably.

Another case of misinterpretation. Reading your reply another time, it's crystal clear (the intent).

Again, the issue with non-verbal communication, across vast distances and often between widely varying cultures...
 
While penetration and fragmentation are not necessarily exclusive, can we agree that bullets which retain more of their weight tend to penetrate better than those which fall apart upon impact?

Depends when expansion is initiated. It's easy to delay expansion to ensure adequate penetration. But ya, projectiles that retain weight penetrate further but often further than required.
 
So, for those In the know. What is this bonded core concept. They glue the lead to the copper or steel cup?
 
So, for those In the know. What is this bonded core concept. They glue the lead to the copper of steel cup?

Chemical reaction.
 
Depends when expansion is initiated. It's easy to delay expansion to ensure adequate penetration.
That I will agree with which begs the question on thick dangerous animals why in the world wouldn't a company making DG ammo make a round designed to penetrate deeply before expanding. It's not like there is an unknown there.
 
That I will agree with which begs the question on thick dangerous animals why in the world wouldn't a company making DG ammo make a round designed to penetrate deeply before expanding. It's not like there is an unknown there.
That I will agree with which begs the question on thick dangerous animals why in the world wouldn't a company making DG ammo make a round designed to penetrate deeply before expanding. It's not like there is an unknown there.

They do...look at Tomahaker's buffalo
 
That was in reference to one specific cartridge. Not all cartridges have same MV
I was stating that is more than likely the reasoning behind said yardage as you had made that point.
Chemical reaction.
You will probably know better than I on this particular subject but I believe it is temperature dependent to get that chemical reaction is it not? (Question not being a smart ass)
 
They do...look at Tomahaker's buffalo
They don't in many circumstances which is my point. See my previous post on recovered bullets. Only 3 of the 7 penetrated more than 5 inches. Post mortum autopsies tell the tale much better than ballistics gel.
 
@sheephunterab don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the ammo will fail in every single circumstance. I'm just saying that in a percentage, and fairly large percentage relatively speaking, they do fail. That was certainly my experience and many many others not only here but elsewhere as well. Thus making the DGX especially and DGS an unsuitable carterage for the intended and advertised purpose.
 
They don't in many circumstances which is my point. See my previous post on recovered bullets. Only 3 of the 7 penetrated more than 5 inches. Post mortum autopsies tell the tale much better than ballistics gel.
I think this is the point we've all been making! Yes, the bullet can kill. Only a deaf and blind person would argue otherwise. But it doesn't seem to reliably penetrate. And it's that reliability most of us (all of us?) are looking for in a dangerous game cartridge, and it's that reliability which Hornady doesn't deliver, notwithstanding the name of the cartridge.
 
I think this is the point we've all been making! Yes, the bullet can kill. Only a deaf and blind person would argue otherwise. But it doesn't seem to reliably penetrate. And it's that reliability most of us (all of us?) are looking for in a dangerous game cartridge, and it's that reliability which Hornady doesn't deliver, notwithstanding the name of the cartridge.
Amen
 
So, for those In the know. What is this bonded core concept. They glue the lead to the copper or steel cup?

There's a lot of ways this is accomplished, some manufacturers choosing to keep their chosen method a secret.
 
Read:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=114

You may draw your own conclusion (as for me, I've long since drawn mine).


Bullet Jacket/Core Separation (03-23-12)

Roughly 25 years ago I was at the Reno SCI convention and happened to be in the Speer booth, when a very upset hunter stopped by to complain about Speer’s “horrible” .375 diameter, 285gr. Grand Slam bullet. As the story went, said hunter had just returned from Africa where he made a one shot kill on an enormous and beautiful 600 lb male lion. The man was furious with the Speer bullet engineers because when he autopsied his lion, he discovered that the bullet jacket had separated from the core and passed through the body cavity and stayed just under the off side skin of the lion, the jacket stayed inside the lion as well and made its own short path of destruction within the torso where it lodged.

In looking at the photos of this lion, I could not help but think how beautiful it was and how perfectly the bullet had performed for lion sized game, in spite of the fact that this guy was very upset. The Speer engineer listened and then very politely explained that the bullet had worked perfectly, which was demonstrated by the fact that the lion dropped on-the-spot. However, some place in the hunters mind was the fact (a non-fact) that no bullet should ever experience jacket/core separation, for any reason and that jacket/core separation was always a bad thing. Of course, this type of bullet performance would not give the penetration you’d want for shooting a 2,000 lb buffalo, but it was perfect for a 600 lb lion or 600 lb anything. In fact, bullet jacket/core separation and some fragmenting, is more deadly than a bullet that holds together, provided the fragmenting bullet still acquires enough penetration for the game being shot. Any time your bullet can make more than one terminal path of destruction, you simply get more destruction of organs, more bleeding and damage to the structural support system of the animal.

Another experience of roughly 25 years ago occurred on the North Fork of the John Day River in NE Oregon. I had back packed into wilderness several miles for a deer hunt, which turned into a black bear hunt after my deer tag was filled. As I picked my way along the north bank of the river, I spotted an averaged sized (around 200 lbs) black bear across the river, with a perfect deep black coat. I was using a 7MM Rem. Mag. rifle and a 140gr. Sierra bullet being launched at 3200+ fps. I knew this bullet would likely fragment on a close range target, (50 yards) which did not bother me because I had been hunting relatively thin bodied mule deer, that don’t require much penetration. The bear was standing broadside, so I made a perfect broadside double-lung shot. The bear ran about 40 yards, like most lung shot bears do and collapsed. Upon examination, I discovered the expected normal single entry hole, but there were at least 6 small exit holes on the opposite side of his rib cage. There was nothing left resembling lungs inside the bear. The bullet construction was not designed for a nearly 3200 fps impact with flesh and bone and had broken up. However, it gave sufficient penetration and because it broke up, it did much more damage than a bullet that would have held together. Again, this is wonderful performance for a bullet being used on 200 lb animals, but would have been a disaster on an 800 lb bull elk with a hard angling shot, that requires three feet of penetration.

Humans are another medium/target where some bullet jacket/core separation and bullet fragmenting can be more deadly than a bullet that simply passed through, leaving only one path of destruction as opposed to several. Humans, being thin and frail do not require much more than 14 to 18 inches of penetration if hit from the worst angles and if hit straight on, require only about 9 or10 inches of penetration before your bullet will exit the other side.

For the first many years of production, Nolser made their Ballistic Tip rifle bullet very fragile and that bullet would often turn into a mini grenade inside an animal if that animal was hit at close enough distance for impact velocity to be high enough. Since that first decade or so of production, Nosler has sadly made their Ballistic Tip bullet much tougher and it will no longer “grenade” inside an animal as easily. I killed a number of big game animals with that old Ballistic Tip bullet and provided I took only good angle (broadside) shots, it was the deadliest bullet around for lung-type shots on elk and deer. Of course I had to be willing to give up the quartering angle shots on elk, when using that bullet., but since mule deer are much smaller than an elk and require much less penetration, I could take quartering shots on deer with that bullet.

Now, I need to make myself perfectly clear or someone somewhere will assert the human tendency to misconstrue……Ample penetration is required to effectively kill any mammal, period, but if you can get ample penetration with a fragmenting bullet, it will normally be more deadly than a bullet that holds together and makes only one path of destruction. Penetration is absolute king, but once sufficient penetration has been achieved, the results are more devastating with a bullet that fragments and if that bullet does not fragment, no worries, as it will still keep penetrating and doing the damage of a single wound channel. Of course if I am hunting buffalo or elephant, I want a bullet that has no chance of separation as those animals are simply too large and tough for any bullet fragmentation of any type to be acceptable. However, the entire purpose of this article is to point out that shooting deer, small black bear and any number of other mammals, including humans, is very different than shooting elephants, so what applies to elephants and buffalo, does not perfectly apply to smaller animals, across the board. Choose your bullet performance accordingly and don’t worry about jacket/core separation in situations where actually enhances bullet effectiveness.

For more information, see my article on “Bonded” Bullets-Dispelling the Myth.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My 416 Ruger up to this point was a 1400$ waist of money. I hunted with it(mind you best experience of my life) once and it has spent the rest of the time in the safe with the exception of every now and again shooting and the odd hog hunt just for giggles. I had a perfectly good 375 in the safe but alas I bought into the Hornady hype. Now, the second that a premium bullet manufacture begins to make a premium bullet in a factory offering it will become my go to DG rifle. I truely believe that the 416 Ruger is a superstar of a round just not with Hornady ammo. I could hand load for it as I am an avid reloader but I only will use factory ammo on a DG hunt. I love the 416 in a standard action and the rifle itself is well built and very accurate. I wish the rest of the ammo manufacturers would jump on the band wagon and start loading for it. Until that time comes it will be the 375 H&H which I should have brought in the first place.
 
There's a lot of ways this is accomplished, some manufacturers choosing to keep their chosen method a secret.
Where I was going with that, and I could be dead ass wrong if I am please correct me, no matter what process is used it is some form of chemical reaction that is temperature dependent. I believe, this is an assumption and I have no hard evidence to support this, that Hornady has serious quality control issues for this process which may be the explanation for the varying results. That's the conclusion that I have come to through my experience and from the outside looking in.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
54,500
Messages
1,156,148
Members
94,250
Latest member
MaryanneBl
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

I realize how hard the bug has bit. I’m on the cusp of safari #2 and I’m looking to plan #3 with my 11 year old a year from now while looking at my work schedule for overtime and computing the math of how many shifts are needed….
Safari Dave wrote on Kevin Peacocke's profile.
I'd like to get some too.

My wife (a biologist, like me) had to have a melanoma removed from her arm last fall.
Grat wrote on HUNTROMANIA's profile.
Hallo Marius- do you have possibilities for stags in September during the roar? Where are your hunting areas in Romania?
ghay wrote on No Promises's profile.
I'm about ready to pull the trigger on another rifle but would love to see your rifle first, any way you could forward a pic or two?
Thanks,
Gary [redacted]
Heym Express Safari cal .416 Rigby

Finally ready for another unforgettable adventure in Namibia with Arub Safaris.


H2863-L348464314_original.jpg
 
Top