Why avoid Hornady DG bullets and ammunition?

I guess that's the point I was trying to make. We've become so enthralled with finding that perfect mushroom and showing to people that we've forgot a lot of what goes on inside an animal when each of those pieces breaks off. I went through a mono metal phase and still shoot them but I find myself going back to more frangible bullets for a lot of my hunting. The recovered bullets typically aren't pretty but animals are very dead. As important as looking at the recovered bullet is...it more critical to look at the results of what it did inside the animal. Still the most impressive bullet I ever saw recovered was a 139-grain GMX that had all six petals sheered off and looked like it went through a meat grinder. Pretty easy to say bullet failure of first examination but that tiny bullet passed through roughly four feet of water buffalo before coming to rest. One very dead water buffalo. The recovered bullet certainly didn't tell the story...the path it took and the destruction it did sure did though. The more I hunt the less I worry about recovering bullets and spend more time analyzing performance!
I really at the end of the day don't give a shit what the bullet looks like after it is recovered. As long as it consistently penetrates deep and provides a clean humane kill that's all I'm concerned with. In both cases the Hornady did not. DG is a close quarters scenario. If it's not designed for that than it's worthless.
 
Well, against my better judgement, I am going to try one more time as well. ;) And T.J., I really appreciate you rejoining our discussion. We will all benefit from every experienced voice. I think we are actually largely in agreement; we have merely reached different conclusions. And it is perfectly ok for equally informed people to draw different conclusions from the same observable data. In the end, I believe we all want a bullet which consistently, and effectively kills the game we are hunting. For me, based upon my experience, a deep straight penetration with lots of retained mass is the starting point for cape buffalo and larger plains game (it would also be the case for lion - but I have no personal experience killing lions). That personal prerequisite is effectively achieved over a fairly wide range of velocities by at least half a dozen premium bullet manufacturers and via at least four different manufacturing techniques. By the way, I include the new cup-nose solid designs in that list.

I also am inherently distrustful of any purposely designed frangible bullet. In my three decades in the military, we did a lot of experimentation with them. Except for ammunition load, the .223 is a pretty awful military round and for four decades we have experimented periodically with frangibles to try and turn it into a man-stopper. A frangible also would be a fairly easy way to technically stay within Geneva protocols. We could never get one to work. There was simply no way to predict what the fragments would do or when they would do it. Also bear in mind, we are not entirely upset with merely wounding an adversary, as he becomes a significant headache for the enemy. But all of that research, made me pretty certain I never wanted to shoot a deer with such a bullet - much less a large animal which can hit back (I would argue, that includes leopard - I want to drill a hole where I am aiming - not hope bits of debris act optimally). You, therefore, can imagine how off-putting I find an accidentally or occasionally frangible design.

So with DGX, we have a bullet which seems to sometimes behave like a frangible at high velocities - whether caused by very short range or original MV. There is a lot of observable evidence which indicates that sometimes happens. It has clearly happened to members of this forum. So, my conclusion, drawn from that observable evidence - and recognizing my previously reached conclusion that deep straight-line penetration is critical - is that the DGX is unsuitable for large and/or heavy-boned DG / PG. Note, that I did not say the bullet wouldn't kill them, but I am personally unwilling to take the risk of fragmentation when so many other bullets will deliver the characteristics I most value far more consistently. And of course, "bullet failure" - and by that, I mean the bullet not performing as I desire a bullet to perform against that particular target - has a much different context when poking cape buffalo rather than, say, a whitetail. Hence, my informed personal lack of regard for the DGX and my concern about its use by inexperienced African hunters who would never recognize the bullet design's limitations - or, if you are fan - its optimal performance window. And certainly, Hornady offers no such caveat in proclaiming the virtues of its product.

To digress, I will be wading around that infernal Zambezi Delta in October with my .375 R8 loaded with the 300gr Woodleigh Hydro. It checks off 90+% of my DG preconditions, and does so, in .375, over a wide range of velocities from muzzle to 300 meters. I will use it on everything from buff to duiker. Like the North Fork cup-nose, it is a solid which, nevertheless, leaves a devastating wound channel. I can personally attest that in its 9.3 guise, it is decisive on bear. The 10% of failing to meet my preconditions will be broadside presentations in a herd. The potential for pass-through is higher than a normal soft. For me, that is a known and fully manageable characteristic with which I am willing to live in order to take advantage of the bullet's other attributes. I am unwilling to live with any surprise performance deviations of any bullet. The DGX design seems rife with such surprises under field conditions.
Red Leg I agree. I'm not trying to be over graphic or gross but frangible bullets just don't work. I watched a guy get shot in the throat at 20 yards with a federal LE frangable round. The PD was concerned for LE purposes that over penetration could cause problems, I.e. A innocent bystander getting hurt so they changed all our rifle ammo to that. From an LE perspective it sorta worked as it did drop the guy and stopped him from killing further. From a practical stand point it didn't. The guy lived and taxpayers are still paying for that guys medical care while he's in jail and that was about 7 years ago. The 556 round exploded upon contact and did a ton of soft tissue damage but didn't penetrate far enough to hit the spine. Had it been at a farther range it probably would have as the velocity would have been less but as it were in CQB it failed.
 
I continue to be confused. Let me see if I have this straight.

We seem to all agree that the Hornady DGX will disintegrate to a great extent even on thin skinned game, and thus fail to penetrate, if it is travelling at too high a velocity when it hits. It seems that the best distance for this bullet is something beyond 150 yards.

We also seem to agree that Hornady advertises the bullet as being particularly suitable for dangerous game, at least in the larger calibers. We also seem to agree that very few people shoot dangerous game at 150 yards or more.

Some of us think that you shouldn't take advertising at face value, while others seem to think you should hold a manufacturer to their claims. Those who take the first position see nothing wrong with the bullet, since it will kill, and perform reasonably well within what is called its performance envelope. That performance envelope is not stated by the maker; you have to figure it out by trial and error, I assume. Those who take the second position think that a dangerous game bullet which does not live up to its claims is itself dangerous, and should never be used, at least not for dangerous game.

Have I got this right? Is that the dispute? Whether you should hold a manufacturer to claims made in advertising? If so, count me on the side of those who think you should.

(If I've got it wrong, well, I give up. This thread already has more pages than a thread on captive bred lion hunting. Perhaps we should have a thread on captive bred lion hunting with Hornady bullets?)
 
I continue to be confused. Let me see if I have this straight.

We seem to all agree that the Hornady DGX will disintegrate to a great extent even on thin skinned game, and thus fail to penetrate, if it is travelling at too high a velocity when it hits. It seems that the best distance for this bullet is something beyond 150 yards.

We also seem to agree that Hornady advertises the bullet as being particularly suitable for dangerous game, at least in the larger calibers. We also seem to agree that very few people shoot dangerous game at 150 yards or more.

Some of us think that you shouldn't take advertising at face value, while others seem to think you should hold a manufacturer to their claims. Those who take the first position see nothing wrong with the bullet, since it will kill, and perform reasonably well within what is called its performance envelope. That performance envelope is not stated by the maker; you have to figure it out by trial and error, I assume. Those who take the second position think that a dangerous game bullet which does not live up to its claims is itself dangerous, and should never be used, at least not for dangerous game.

Have I got this right? Is that the dispute? Whether you should hold a manufacturer to claims made in advertising? If so, count me on the side of those who think you should.

(If I've got it wrong, well, I give up. This thread already has more pages than a thread on captive bred lion hunting. Perhaps we should have a thread on captive bred lion hunting with Hornady bullets?)
Oh lord, plz no more CBL Hornady or not. My blood pressure can't handle anymore of it.
 
................. Perhaps we should have a thread on captive bred lion hunting with Hornady bullets?)

I refuse to merge the two threads, even for you Hank!
 
When one looks at the cutaways (provided they are accurate representations...perhaps I should surface grind the .416 DGX and DGS bullets I have in inventory), it's hard to see where Hornady has gone wrong (in particular with the DGS), but by most accounts, gone wrong they have (again, not expecting perfection with regard to performance in the field, but neither excusing/accepting some of what we've seen here).

DGX:

IMG_5191.jpg


DGS:

IMG_5192.jpg

Maybe it's an issue of quality of materials (non-bonded DGX core, aside).
 
When one looks at the cutaways (provided they are accurate representations...perhaps I should surface grind the .416 DGX and DGS bullets I have in inventory), it's hard to see where Hornady has gone wrong (in particular with the DGS), but by most accounts, gone wrong they have (again, not expecting perfection with regard to performance in the field, but neither excusing/accepting some of what we've seen here).

DGX:

View attachment 192000

DGS:

View attachment 192001
Maybe it's an issue of quality of materials (non-bonded DGX core, aside).
I think perhaps you are on to something here. It may lie in the quality of materials and quality control. This would certainly explain why some have had success under certain conditions yet others have seen absolute failure during very similar circumstances.
 
For what it's worth, I've used 165 grain Hornady spire point boat tails in 3o8 caliber for a jillion years with incredible success. There are certain things Hornady has gotten right. DGX/DGS just isn't one of them. I actually use a lot of Hornady stuff but just won't ever use or suggest their DG ammo. I would love to see how their new long range bullets preform in 30 cal.
 
If they're not careful, very careful in specifying materials (steel for jackets, in particular), problems are virtually guaranteed (although, I'd expect it to surface during production and therefore not make it into the field).
 
The new long range bullets have gotten good reviews (from major media outlets, that is...caveat emptor).
 
Thanks for the illustrations.
So, why would they have a (cup) base on the expanding round and not on the Solid round?

(I guess you have to pour the lead in someway right?)

The expanding bullet (DGX) has a closed base, whereas the non-expanding (DGS) an open base. This has been the way of it, for such bullets, for over 100 years.
 
I continue to be confused. Let me see if I have this straight.

We seem to all agree that the Hornady DGX will disintegrate to a great extent even on thin skinned game, and thus fail to penetrate, if it is travelling at too high a velocity when it hits. It seems that the best distance for this bullet is something beyond 150 yards.

We also seem to agree that Hornady advertises the bullet as being particularly suitable for dangerous game, at least in the larger calibers. We also seem to agree that very few people shoot dangerous game at 150 yards or more.

Some of us think that you shouldn't take advertising at face value, while others seem to think you should hold a manufacturer to their claims. Those who take the first position see nothing wrong with the bullet, since it will kill, and perform reasonably well within what is called its performance envelope. That performance envelope is not stated by the maker; you have to figure it out by trial and error, I assume. Those who take the second position think that a dangerous game bullet which does not live up to its claims is itself dangerous, and should never be used, at least not for dangerous game.

Have I got this right? Is that the dispute? Whether you should hold a manufacturer to claims made in advertising? If so, count me on the side of those who think you should.

(If I've got it wrong, well, I give up. This thread already has more pages than a thread on captive bred lion hunting. Perhaps we should have a thread on captive bred lion hunting with Hornady bullets?)

Penetration and fragmentation are hardly exclusive. Tomahakers buff looked pretty dead! Not sure where you came up with the 150 number for yardage...depends on the cartridge. It is fun to take comments way out of context though...can't dispute that!
 
Oh lord, plz no more CBL Hornady or not. My blood pressure can't handle anymore of it.
It's not all about you and your blood pressure Gizmo. Maybe the rest of us want to see a 50 page thread!
 
When one looks at the cutaways (provided they are accurate representations...perhaps I should surface grind the .416 DGX and DGS bullets I have in inventory), it's hard to see where Hornady has gone wrong (in particular with the DGS), but by most accounts, gone wrong they have (again, not expecting perfection with regard to performance in the field, but neither excusing/accepting some of what we've seen here).

DGX:

View attachment 192000

DGS:

View attachment 192001

Interesting pictures. What jumps out immediately to me is that unlike the Swift A-Frame, there is no solid copper (or other hard metal) band separating the two halves of the bullet. Maybe that makes the difference?
 
The expanding bullet (DGX) has a closed base, whereas the non-expanding (DGS) an open base. This has been the way of it, for such bullets, for over 100 years.

Now I have to read history books. Damn.
What about brass versions? Are they solid brass?
I know the BARNES solids are One chunk of metal
 
@Hank2211 , it's standard issue cup-and-core technology...no partition, no solid shank, etc.

@BRICKBURN , below shows the process of making a bullet the likes of which is being discussed (from Hornady's reloading manual, 3rd Edition).

IMG_5194.JPG
 
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It's not all about you and your blood pressure Gizmo. Maybe the rest of us want to see a 50 page thread!

Always after records!
 
Penetration and fragmentation are hardly exclusive. Tomahakers buff looked pretty dead! Not sure where you came up with the 150 number for yardage...depends on the cartridge. It is fun to take comments way out of context though...can't dispute that!
While penetration and fragmentation are not necessarily exclusive, can we agree that bullets which retain more of their weight tend to penetrate better than those which fall apart upon impact?

As for the 150 yards, I made it up. Some - perhaps you - have suggested that the issue with the bullets may be that the distances were too short. So I picked a range at which you wouldn't likely shoot dangerous game, which is what this bullet is intended for ("dangerous game expanding"). I'd give you the exact quotes, but I don't want to have to look back over 14 pages. I don't think I took that "way out of context", but if I did, I apologize. And if you only feel I did, well, that's another example of unintended consequences!
 
If they're not careful, very careful in specifying materials (steel for jackets, in particular), problems are virtually guaranteed (although, I'd expect it to surface during production and therefore not make it into the field).
i think there in lies the problem. DG bullets are for a very limited market. The odds of it becoming a huge issue is less than say a round designed for whitetail. The average hunter will probably never hunt DG therefore few people will ever know. If say 10% of all hunters hunt DG and 1% decided to use this ammo and .07% have a bad experience who the hell cares. Hornady gets great advertising from the "pros" and the .07% aren't going to make a big enough stink to make a difference thus Hornady has bragging rights and a small % of the market share.
 

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Do you still have this rifle? I'm in the KC area on business and I'm very interested.
 
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