Heavy arrow help

[Ratnik]

Hi guys. I have a new bow on the way (90 lb APA King Cobra TF) and I need to get some arrows to go with it. I don't have any experience with heavy arrow setups so I could use some help.

Essentially I am looking for a DG setup even though I will just be shooting targets for now. Ideally the arrow will be somewhere around 900-1000 grains but anything 700+ is fine. 20%+ FOC if possible.

I think Grizzlystiks would be ideal for this, but the problem is I live in Australia and I'm not prepared to pay $100+ in shipping for a 6 pack of arrows (which already cost nearly 2x the price of some other brands). So I've been looking at Easton FMJ DG in 250 spine and Black Eagle Rampages in 150 spine, both of which available locally at a good price.

My questions:

1) Are these good options? I've seen a lot of people on this forum using FMJ DG but OnTarget seems to suggest the spine will be weak for my setup, while the Rampages will be slightly stiff.

2) Where should I cut the arrows for a 27" draw length? In the past I've cut arrows at 27" but is there any advantage in having a longer arrow for this kind of setup?

3) How should I build the arrow? For the Rampages I'm thinking a 300 gr field point and a 75 gr insert up front (can I use Easton HIT inserts with these?). According to OnTarget that will give me about 850 gr with 21% FOC and 124 KE with a 28" arrow. Is there anything else to consider?

Any advice at all is appreciated.

 

[Devin Twitty]

So the dg are a little weak for your set up which can cause a few issues. Broad head flight being the man one.

I cut my arrows so they are about 1" or so in front of my rest. The shorter you can cut them the more stiff the arrow becomes.

Rampage you can use the hit inserts in them. Be sure to watch your spine with the weight up front.

Not sure if you can get victory vap or goldtip kinect but it's two more options. Goldtip has a weight system I love to use. Always error on the side of to stiff of spine it can save you a head ache.

 

[jeff]

If the Rampages are too stiff leave them a little longer and that will weaken spine.

 

[navar]

I use the goldtip Kinetic with my PSE omen 80 pounds at 30" with good results.
If you find them available there, is worth a try.
Good luck, let us know how is it going....

 

[Ratnik]

Hey guys, thanks for the info. The Kinetics look good, this is what I'm getting:

Is there a way to get them heavier with inserts etc? At the moment it's showing 667 gr with a 300 gr field point and the 24 gr Accu-Tough insert.

For the Rampages I can get it to a good place if I leave the shaft at 32", is this a bad idea? I know trad archers shoot long arrows, but I assume it's different with a compound. This is what I get at 32" with a 911 gr arrow, any shorter than this and it's pretty stiff:

 

[dg2]

With 70+ pound modern compound bow you cannot have too stiff arrow.

Accu-Tough inserts are quite weak, and I would not use those. You can .204 ID steel (60 gr) inserts from Victory for example.

For example 29.5" Gold Tip 200 with steel insert and some kind of footing in the front (like Gold Tips ballistic collar) + 250 gr tip will get you 700+ gr.

It would be good to have some kind of reinforcement footing in the front to prevent front of arrow mushrooming (lost energy). For GT 200s I have used 1.5" piece Easton 2014 aluminium shaft or Gold Tips ballistic collar.

 

[lpace]

Hey guys, thanks for the info. The Kinetics look good, this is what I'm getting:

Is there a way to get them heavier with inserts etc? At the moment it's showing 667 gr with a 300 gr field point and the 24 gr Accu-Tough insert.

For the Rampages I can get it to a good place if I leave the shaft at 32", is this a bad idea? I know trad archers shoot long arrows, but I assume it's different with a compound. This is what I get at 32" with a 911 gr arrow, any shorter than this and it's pretty stiff:

You can increase the arrow weight of the Kinetics with weight tubes. They come in 3, 5 and 8 gpi. They are not supposed to impact the FOC, although I have no personal data on that. The link is to 3 Rivers Archery (http://www.3riversarchery.com/3rivers-archery-arrow-weight-tubes.html) for reference as having them shipped from the US sounds like a problem.

Leaving an arrow shaft at 32 inches is not a problem. Problems arise when the spine of the arrow does not match the bow set-up. You can also get heavier inserts and/or insert weights. With heavier weight inserts and insert weights, you would have to trim the Rampages down a bit, but that would only increase your FOC which is a good thing.

 

[BRICKBURN]

You can increase the arrow weight of the Kinetics with weight tubes. They come in 3, 5 and 8 gpi. They are not supposed to impact the FOC, although I have no personal data on that. The link is to 3 Rivers Archery (http://www.3riversarchery.com/3rivers-archery-arrow-weight-tubes.html) for reference as having them shipped from the US sounds like a problem.
...........

I used these inserts to increase my arrow weight and I found I had to glue them in at the knock end.
Otherwise, they blew the knock off on impact.
In the end I had good luck with them.

 

[dg2]

Also for heavy outserts and shafts you might want to check out local aussie supplier https://www.widowmakerarchery.com/

 

[Ratnik]

I am not 100% sure how to model weight tubes in OnTarget (I just added 8 to the gpi of the shaft) but it looks good with the Kinetics. If I can get a 300 gr point and another 75 gr up front (Victory steel insert + ballistic collar?) it will be around 940 gr at 27.5" with 19% FOC. Spine should be good as well. Earlier I was thinking of using the FACT 20 gr modules, but putting the weight up front would've tanked the spine, so I think evenly distributing it through the whole shaft via weight tubes is a good solution. Still not sure I have it modeled perfectly so I'll play around with it some more.

 

[Devin Twitty]

You can add weight to the rear of the arrow to correct the spine issue too.

 

[petrusg]

I personally use the Black Mamaba Radial X-Weave arrows. They come complete with inserts to up the weight of your arrow to what ever you prefer. Shooting them without the inserts on plains game at 500gr and on dangerous game i prefer to add the insert and trim them to 1000gr.

 

[Ole Bally]

Hi guys. I have a new bow on the way (90 lb APA King Cobra TF) and I need to get some arrows to go with it. I don't have any experience with heavy arrow setups so I could use some help.

Essentially I am looking for a DG setup even though I will just be shooting targets for now. Ideally the arrow will be somewhere around 900-1000 grains but anything 700+ is fine. 20%+ FOC if possible.

I think Grizzlystiks would be ideal for this, but the problem is I live in Australia and I'm not prepared to pay $100+ in shipping for a 6 pack of arrows (which already cost nearly 2x the price of some other brands). So I've been looking at Easton FMJ DG in 250 spine and Black Eagle Rampages in 150 spine, both of which available locally at a good price.

My questions:

1) Are these good options? I've seen a lot of people on this forum using FMJ DG but OnTarget seems to suggest the spine will be weak for my setup, while the Rampages will be slightly stiff.

2) Where should I cut the arrows for a 27" draw length? In the past I've cut arrows at 27" but is there any advantage in having a longer arrow for this kind of setup?

3) How should I build the arrow? For the Rampages I'm thinking a 300 gr field point and a 75 gr insert up front (can I use Easton HIT inserts with these?). According to OnTarget that will give me about 850 gr with 21% FOC and 124 KE with a 28" arrow. Is there anything else to consider?

Any advice at all is appreciated.

Your plan in 3) sounds to be a reasonable one! If you can get the arrow speed up around 250 > fps or faster this'll penetrate just about everything.

As a matter of interest, We made up DG arrows from a 2400 Easton Carbon with a 1916 ali shaft on the outside.(circa 1990) The fit was very snug. The ali shaft was cut back to allow over sert for the carbon and the carbon arrows nock.
With a 180 grain broadhead these arrows weigh in at just 1050gr.
I'm not sure what you have available in Aus that may fit the bill to make up something similar.
We also did all the 'kitchen craft' ideas like filling the Ali shafts with all kinds of powders such as Creme of Tartar!! Non of these were very successful!

 

[Ratnik]

The bow arrived yesterday. Haven't had a chance to set it up or test it yet, will do so this week. For the birth certificate they usually chrono it with 5 gr/lb arrows but I asked them to test with the heaviest arrow they had available so they used 700gr. The speed is close to what OnTarget predicts (about 4 fps slower) and about what I expected so I'm happy with that.

Haven't had a chance to look more into arrows yet but I think either the Kinetics or Rampages should be good. Leaning more towards the Rampages because they are stiffer and give me a bit more room for options. I might get a dozen at 32" then cut 6 down to 28" and play around with weight tubes etc to find the best combo of weight and FOC. 32" with 8 gr weight tubes would be about 1170 gr, 28" with no weight tubes about 850 gr, so I can mix things around until I find what works best. The Kinetics are a solid choice but weaker on spine so a bit more limited. Nothing is decided yet though.

 

[Devin Twitty]

Like the color I'm looking at getting a new Athens revelation in a month. I don't know how you can pull 90 lbs I've done it but it kills my shoulder. Let's us know what you do for arrows

 

[Synergy]

wow, that is a nice and sharp looking bow!

 

[Synergy]

Hey Ratnik, did you bought the bow from APA or from a dealer?

 

[Ratnik]

Hey Ratnik, did you bought the bow from APA or from a dealer?

Direct from APA. On their website they only sell them up to 70 lb, or 80 lb as a $75 option, so I sent them an email asking if they can make it heavier and they agreed to make me a 90 lb one for $75 extra (same price as 80). Also had to sign a liability waiver that they sent via email, basically saying I won't sue them if the bow explodes.

 

[Devin Twitty]

Ahh wow I've never seen a company ask you to sign a waiver.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Direct from APA. On their website they only sell them up to 70 lb, or 80 lb as a $75 option, so I sent them an email asking if they can make it heavier and they agreed to make me a 90 lb one for $75 extra (same price as 80). Also had to sign a liability waiver that they sent via email, basically saying I won't sue them if the bow explodes.

Things have changed.
My APA limbs were built and then sent to me, no lawyers required.
Someone had a boo boo.