J W Tolley Double Rifle

[steve white]

I would send your pictures of the markings on the barrels ahead of the flats to DoubleGunshopjournal website, selecting the appropriate blog, and they will tell you ALL ABOUT all of the proof marks, maker history, etc. They are wizards at that sort of thing. Send the best photos you can, maybe even filling the markings with chalk to clarify them.

 

[93marlin]

I would agree with the estimated value. Your rifle looks very much like my T&L Pryce 500BPE. I have an estimated value at $4000 - $4500. Not that I want to sell it though!!
Your rifle should shoot very well with proper loads. And these old doubles are a LOT of fun to shoot and hunt with, exactly what they were meant for.

 

[Furharvester]

That is a little loose although the fit of the cartridge body is more important than the rim fit.
All 450 3-1/4" cartridges are the same dimensionally whether original BPE case or nitro express cases - shouldn't matter. My own 450BPE's rim recess is a much closer fit than on your rifle.

If you have a micrometer take some measurements. Hope the chambers haven't been monkeyed with...

I have a micrometer and calipers that I'll take some measurements with when I get home.

 

[Furharvester]

It is .670” across the chamber where the rim sets, and recessed .065” down for the rim

 

[Huvius]

It is .670” across the chamber where the rim sets, and recessed .065” down for the rim

Odd.
.065" is indeed thick for a 450 3-1/4"

A chamber cast is what you really need to tell you what you need to know.

 

[Huvius]

I would send your pictures of the markings on the barrels ahead of the flats to DoubleGunshopjournal website, selecting the appropriate blog, and they will tell you ALL ABOUT all of the proof marks, maker history, etc. They are wizards at that sort of thing. Send the best photos you can, maybe even filling the markings with chalk to clarify them.

There's not much to tell about the chambering from the proofs on this rifle.
"52" is the bore measurement in lead balls (52 spherical pure lead balls per Imperial pound) - that equates to roughly .450" bore. .450" bore is the minor diameter of the inside - that is, a .450" ball or pin gauge will slide down the bore without engaging the rifling.
The barrels were made by Adams & Tate with Alexander Henry's patented rifling type.
Number 3136 and 3137 tubes made with Henry rifling. They were recorded this way because Alexander Henry was paid a royalty on every use of his patented rifling type.
5749 is J&W Tolley's (James and William) own serial number.
The heavy stamp closest to the flats is the Provisional Birmingham proof mark.
The crown over 'V' stamp is the Birmingham Inspection mark.
The stamp further down the barrel is the final Black Powder proof mark.

 

[Furharvester]

I have a 450 NE No 2 cartridge and set it in the chamber upside down. It sticks out of the barrel way too far to ever chamber but the rim fits in nicely. Any thoughts other than a chamber cast on my next days off?

 

[Sarg]

Yeah do the chamber cast bud, any thing else is dream guessing !

It is over 100 years old LOTS of time for Dick Head Bubba's to have messed with it, some guns are messed up in 5yrs by him !

Could of been rechambered/messed with to 45/70 or 45/90 or or ??

I once saw where a guy rechambered a awesome 8 Bore Double Rifle to take the Remington/Winchester Industrial cartridge (or at least the cases) seems he was too dumb to just size the head down (what I use in mine) like ever one else, breaks your heart !!

 

[Furharvester]

I know I have to do the chamber cast but I haven’t had the time with work and everything else, so until I can I’m just guessing and checking things out. Thanks for the input guys. It very much appreciated

 

[Huvius]

Yeah, the 450No.2 NE is a massive cartridge.
Seeing that rim recess, I’m going to put my bet on it being the 500/450 No.1 Express which is a wonderful BPE cartridge in its own right.
in fact, I like it so much that I have three rifles in that chambering.
One, nearing completion, will be my F.C. Selous Gibbs Farquharson replica, so to speak.
Will post all about it when it’s done.

 

[Furharvester]

Yeah, the 450No.2 NE is a massive cartridge.
Seeing that rim recess, I’m going to put my bet on it being the 500/450 No.1 Express which is a wonderful BPE cartridge in its own right.
in fact, I like it so much that I have three rifles in that chambering.
One, nearing completion, will be my F.C. Selous Gibbs Farquharson replica, so to speak.
Will post all about it when it’s done.

I wondered about that cartridge as a possibility but I still have to do a chamber cast

 

[Furharvester]

Update on the rifle. I have taken it to a local gunsmith my grandfather and Dad trusts with their German drillings. He is currently waiting on the Cerro safe that he ordered to do the chamber cast for me. I attempted to do a casting with hot glue as was suggested but couldn't get a good casting from it before killing the wife's glue gun. Hopefully the Cerro safe will show up soon so I can finally learn the cartridge I need so I can get to shooting the rifle.

 

[Furharvester]

I finally got the call I’ve been waiting on. The rifle is a 500/450

 

[Huvius]

I finally got the call I’ve been waiting on. The rifle is a 500/450

OK
Which one?!

The No.1 Express is likely it (2-3/4" case length) but the No.2 Musket is a much easier cartridge to make as it can be easily formed from Starline 50/90 Sharps brass!

 

[Furharvester]

OK
Which one?!

The No.1 Express is likely it (2-3/4" case length) but the No.2 Musket is a much easier cartridge to make as it can be easily formed from Starline 50/90 Sharps brass!

Still not sure wether it’s a no 1 or 2. I believe a no 2 but I didn’t actually talk to the gunsmith myself. My dad was the one he called so Tuesday when I go up to pick up the gun I’ll find out for sure.

 

[Furharvester]

Ok so correction I figured no 1 and that’s exactly what it is, is a 500/450 no 1 express. Now all I have to do is find ammunition and I’m all set. Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[Furharvester]

Does anyone know where I might find ammo for this rifle?

 

[Huvius]

You're in the same boat as another new double owner over on A.R.
It's not easy to find - where in the US are you?

 

[spike.t]

Interesting read following the story....thought it was done and dusted...then it was is it the no1 or no2.... ...glad you finally managed to discover what it was ...

 

[Furharvester]

You're in the same boat as another new double owner over on A.R.
It's not easy to find - where in the US are you?

I’m in Michigan