PHASA distances itself from Captive-bred Lion Hunting

KMG Hunting Safaris said:
Royal, if the registered breeder made $1M per year from selling 100 Lions, he's going to be trying to get as close to $1M for the year, by only selling 20 Lions under the new laws.
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So if I've got my math right, you're expecting a 5x increase in prices, correct?
 
Those prices will make wild lion hunting all the more attractive.... Or conversely make an RSA lion hunt that much less attractive, Therefore one might conclude that 1. Lion hunting will be out of reach for many hunters. 2. Wild lion hunts will be much more attractive, in comparison for the cost. 3. This will of course raise prices even further for wild lion hunts... 4. But will also increase demand and pressure/temptation to push the limits on the wild population. 5. Therefore this is a big negative for lion conservation.
 
Wheels said:
And these people VOTE!


Seems Darwin was wrong.
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And they breed and reproduce! What if Darwin is correct and they reach a critical stage where the species collapses?
 
PHASA made a decision and is sticking to it, maybe for the better or for the worse.

Would it different if they stated “WE STILL SUPPORT ETHICAL HUNTING WITH THE FAIR CHASE PRINCIPLE”. (I don’t see this in PHASA code of conduct)

A fair chase describes as follows: “….the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It does, however extend beyond the hunt itself; it is an attitude and a way of life based in a deep-seated respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for other individuals who share the bounty of this continent’s natural resources”.

I have seen Blood lions and are fairly up to date wrt lion hunting and hunting in general. Now I want to ask the wise men the following questions.

a. If I hunt on an open farm (all other rules of ethical hunting such as calibre, distance, shot placement, KE etc. is in place) it is regarded as ethical?

b. If I hunt in and enclosed farm (like most farms that has available hunting and all other rules of ethical hunting as such etc. is in place) is it still is regarded as ethical? Does the size of the enclosure then makes a difference. On some farms that I have been (Eastern Cape (bowhunting only allowed on enclosed farms) and Limpopo) the bush is so dense you cannot see further than 5 - 10m. An animal will hear you from a mile away. On a 100ha (1km²) enclosure hunters haven’t seen an animal for weeks, yet every morning all the tracks and droppings indicates a lot of animals. Is this still ethical hunting?

c. What is determined as a captive bred animal? Is it the size of the enclosure or human interference? (in dry seasons some landowner supply food and water because the whole farm is enclosed, on some farms cattle and game graze in the same veld.)

d. Are all the animals that are bred on any enclosed farm then regarded as captive bred animals irrespective of size of land? (They are born in an enclosure!)(All national parks is enclosed so all animals there must be classed as captive bred)

A big hunting body succumb to the Greenies (Round 1 to the greenies). IMHO would it have been different to say “we support ethical hunting with the fair chase principle, for captive bred lion hunting (or any other animal) and the follow rules will be accepted as ethical, A, B C etc. The PH knows the farm they hunt on and know the ways the landowners operate. Must they not first confirm that the hunt is ethical (basic rules of hunting) for the client! (PS, I‘m not blaming any PH for any wrong doing).

Did someone sit and think of how many jobs and people will be affected by this decision, the hunter, the landowner, the PH, the tracker, the taxidermist, the gunshop, the driver, the skinner, the cook, the servant etc? How many less money will brought into the country? Yes, there are unscrupulous and unethical people out there. Don’t use their farms or animals and they will either abide to the rules or will disappear from the scene.

The biggest question now remains which animal will be next and which hunting body will be next?
 
Royal27 said:
I had the same thoughts as Marius on prices going up significantly, although I agree that Jaco's idea is sure better than shutting down everything.

Any idea what the economics would be? Obviously a longer hunt would be required than now, and it would take more than the .5 day average it seems to take now to make the kill, which would reduce opportunity for other profit to be made through other animals. Not to mention increased costs for less hunts.

Not does it take into consideration that prices could do up even more due to the demand restriction.

Thoughts?

I'm the first to admit I don't know enough about the economics to guess.
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I like this exchange of ideas and feel that this whole thread has been turned into a positive one after a rocky start :). Thanks Marius and Jaco for beginning the constructive dialogue. I had a thought, and it's just a bit of brainstorming on the economics of lion hunting...so here goes.

Lions are the king of beasts and should be the pinnacle of hunting. A lion hunt doesn't have to be affordable to everyone out there. Now if you banned captive-bred lion hunting out-right or put a very long release period of say 6 months on them it would effectively end captive-bred lion hunting for now. Demand for lion amongst hunters would stay the same but supply of lions would decrease a significant amount. This is because only free-range lion would be huntable and their quota is determined by conservation methods not demand/supply and that quota would stay constant. As a result of the shift in the demand/supply graph, prices on lion would increase substantially. Only a few hunters, maybe would be able to afford a lion trophy. Wild lion would receive much more attention and conservation from governments and the local communities because they would become even more valuable than they already are. Perhaps even more habitat would be set aside for them because of their increased value. Hunting associations and pro-hunting groups could measure this price increase and hopefully the corresponding increase in wild lion numbers and habitat and then could have a measurable conservation benefit directly linked to the hunting of lion. This valuable research is our biggest weapon in the fight to save hunting. It will never convince a anti-hunter because he's an idealist who doesn't listen to reason. But it will convince the non-hunter who hasn't yet formed a strong enough opinion on hunting to choose sides.

Then when this has been attained, the higher lion price would make it financially possible for a lion breeder to have a release period of 6 months or more. The increase in habitat would also contribute to more wild lions in the supply chain. And the supply of lions would again go up and this whole cycle will repeat itself ending with lion prices approximately where they are now. But...with a significant conservation and moral gain.

This would be the free market version of lion hunting and I'm sure there are a lot of real-world problems with this idea, but it's something to consider.

Victor
 
Those prices will make wild lion hunting all the more attractive.... Or conversely make an RSA lion hunt that much less attractive, Therefore one might conclude that 1. Lion hunting will be out of reach for many hunters. 2. Wild lion hunts will be much more attractive, in comparison for the cost. 3. This will of course raise prices even further for wild lion hunts... 4. But will also increase demand and pressure/temptation to push the limits on the wild population. 5. Therefore this is a big negative for lion conservation.
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This is exactly why I say the current system is good for wildlife conservation. I think a few of the bad apples need to be weeded out of the system. What I really can't for the life of me understand is why doesn't someone tell the bad operators to get their sh#t straight. Run a ethical operation or you won't see another dime.

The PH knows the farm they hunt on and know the ways the landowners operate. Must they not first confirm that the hunt is ethical (basic rules of hunting) for the client!
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I agree with you 100%

Yes, there are unscrupulous and unethical people out there. Don’t use their farms or animals and they will either abide to the rules or will disappear from the scene.
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Again I agree 100%
 
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There is definitely something within what you say Victor.

I agree that lion hunting doesn't have to be affordable for all and it should be at least one of the pinnacles. One of the things that irks me here in the states is that people have gotten to the point that they think everyone is entitled to everything, instead of being entitled to the right to try. I digress, but you get the idea.
 
PHOENIX PHIL said:
So if I've got my math right, you're expecting a 5x increase in prices, correct?
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No Phil, just trying to make a point that a lot more money is going to have to be made by the breeders by selling a lot fewer Lions. Whenever I think of a strategy, it always seems to break down when I get to the economics. Then, it' back to square one.
 
BRICKBURN said:
Roy, going after PHASA for the wording of a News release is a little off VS the policies / positions. I get that it sounds limp.

Fairly clear. PHASA does not support Canned Lion hunting. Captive Bred within the law and also states they will review policy on an ongoing basis.

It does beg the question: What is "canned"? Is this fence sitting.

PHASA can only discipline members, just like any professional association. If the offender quits the association the proceeding is over. There is no legal sanction available to PHASA.

PHASA Policy / Position Statement
http://phasa.co.za/about-phasa/policies-positions.html

Our policies and positions are dynamic and are developing constantly. We encourage our members to keep themselves abreast of these developments. Policies and positions are debated and formulated at our AGM, while updates are published in all our communications.

Attend the AGM and be part of the decision-making process!

PHASA policy on hunting (adopted at the PHASA AGM on 17 November 2010)
• PHASA supports the responsible hunting of all species in a sustainable, extensive wildlife system that can fend for themselves, provided that such species are hunted according to the laws of the land and the PHASA Code of Conduct.


PHASA position on the hunting of lions (adopted at the PHASA AGM on 21 November 2013)
• PHASA strongly opposes any form of ‘canned’ hunting and will discipline any of its members who participate in such activity.
• PHASA will continue to work with government and law enforcement agencies, as it has done in the past, to eradicate this practice.
• PHASA concurs with the South African government’s position that the breeding of lions in captivity does not threaten our wild lion populations or biodiversity in conservation and that the hunting of such lions is sustainable.
• PHASA acknowledges that the hunting of captive-bred lions will, for the foreseeable future, remain part of the South African hunting industry. PHASA believes that it is imperative that such hunting be undertaken in a responsible manner and that such hunts comply at all times with nature conservation laws, and conform to the PHASA Code of Conduct and other policies.
• Accordingly, PHASA accepts, as the MINIMUM norms for such hunting by its members, the Norms and Standards, as set out in the ‘POLICY DOCUMENT: Norms and Standards for Hunting Ranch Lions in South Africa’, as adopted by the South African Predator Association (SAPA) at its AGM, on 16 November 2013.
• PHASA views the SAPA norms as a stepping-stone to clean up the captive-bred lion hunting industry. PHASA does not believe that those norms are the final word on the hunting of lions.
• PHASA will always strongly advise its members to set the standards for hunting even higher. In this regard, PHASA is in the process of further dialogue with SAPA.
• PHASA believes that the hunting of captive-bred lions MUST result in direct funding for conservation and research programmes, in respect of wild lions. Furthermore, PHASA believes that such hunting MUST contribute to social upliftment projects, especially in our poorer rural communities. PHASA has, through the Fund, a proud and phenomenal history in these fields and will use its expertise to make a meaningful contribution. PHASA is in the process of discussing such funding with SAPA and is also looking at such projects on its own.
• PHASA welcomes working with all stakeholders to develop a coherent approach to the long-term future of our wildlife and natural areas.
• PHASA is a dynamic association that continues to monitor developments. PHASA will do the same with the lion hunting industry and, from time to time, review its position.
Extract – complete position paper available from the PHASA office or website.
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So if PHASA says it is cool , upstanding and decides all has been corrected , then its okay to " sport hunt " captive bred lions ?
All stakeholders have met the requirements and so doing taking a lion from a small enclosure and releasing it into a bigger enclosure meeting all the pre requisites , then its acceptable ?

What we should concern ourselves with , is that there are hunters by profession and those that do so for recreational purposes that oppose this , never mind the anti brigade.

Hunting of canned lions being legal has only opened the door for this to become common practise within the industry concerning all game - that is a crying shame. We have allowed the spotlight to fall on ourselves.

I'm sorry I can not change my opinion about PHASA sitting on the fence.
 
KMG Hunting Safaris said:
Royal, if the registered breeder made $1M per year from selling 100 Lions, he's going to be trying to get as close to $1M for the year, by only selling 20 Lions under the new laws.
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Yeah, totally get it. No one wants to make a larger investment for less profit.

This is where I'm struggling with the math....
 
Jaco Strauss said:
Release period NORTH WEST ..... 96 hours... I'm being serious.
Property size 1000ha being serious again.

Hank221 PHASA had been working with SAPA for two years as karoowild also mentioned but little to no headway had been made.

Problem lies in this, SAPA is a breeders accosiation but many of they're members are the landowners on which the lions are shot, they want turn over 2 days in next one(client) standing in line to come in its become a big money spinner....

The issue is not fences, size of land, wilding period, conditions under which the hunt and breeding takes place, these are the issues at hand that needs serious attention,

I know, of a landowner that has actually provided lion with a calming substance to get the hunters (ph and client) out of the field because the follow up client is on the way.

They only discovered this later by Freudian slip.

Now that's horse manure!

It's no secret in SA if you want to make quick money there is no better way to do it than with a lion and it only takes a day or two mostly.

My best always
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I think a lot of people think there is an endless supply of money and the economy will sort things out....which it does one way or another. But if anyone thinks guys are going to pay regularly 5x what they are paying now for fenced lion hunts, I think your are drunk. I think the prices are HIGH ENOUGH and the market will not support it, even to DOUBLE the price. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.
 
KMG Hunting Safaris said:
. Whenever I think of a strategy, it always seems to break down when I get to the economics. Then, it' back to square one.
Click to expand...

Sounds like wisdom gained from experience.
 
Eina !! = Ouch !! The truth. Never mind what I could add.

Gentlemen it is messy and if what I have seen personally could be recorded / documented by any anti group and shown publicly - game over.

Stop pussy footing around the facts , stop trying to hide we're already in the spotlight , and we're in a dog fight amongst ourselves about it. If hunters are against it as well , then it should be telling you something.
 
KMG Hunting Safaris said:
Royal, if the registered breeder made $1M per year from selling 100 Lions, he's going to be trying to get as close to $1M for the year, by only selling 20 Lions under the new laws.
Click to expand...
Marius the error in your assumption is that this is what I call "trucker math"... I hire a lot of trucking and when fuel prices doubled a few years ago, the truckers all doubled their rates with the excuse "fuel doubled!" Well fuel is about 1/3rd of their cost, not 100% o_O His fixed cost stayed the same. As did his labor cost.

Conversely, a lion breeder supplying 20 lions per year instead of 100 will see his variable expense drop to 20% of what it had been... Of course his fixed cost will likely stay about the same, unless he diversifies into other things to help utilize the fixed assets. But if he charges 5x the price, he will be realizing a much greater profit..... Of course if he has to bear the cost of additional carry time, that changes the economics again.
 
Karoo Wild said:
I like this exchange of ideas and feel that this whole thread has been turned into a positive one after a rocky start :). Thanks Marius and Jaco for beginning the constructive dialogue. I had a thought, and it's just a bit of brainstorming on the economics of lion hunting...so here goes.

Lions are the king of beasts and should be the pinnacle of hunting. A lion hunt doesn't have to be affordable to everyone out there. Now if you banned captive-bred lion hunting out-right or put a very long release period of say 6 months on them it would effectively end captive-bred lion hunting for now. Demand for lion amongst hunters would stay the same but supply of lions would decrease a significant amount. This is because only free-range lion would be huntable and their quota is determined by conservation methods not demand/supply and that quota would stay constant. As a result of the shift in the demand/supply graph, prices on lion would increase substantially. Only a few hunters, maybe would be able to afford a lion trophy. Wild lion would receive much more attention and conservation from governments and the local communities because they would become even more valuable than they already are. Perhaps even more habitat would be set aside for them because of their increased value. Hunting associations and pro-hunting groups could measure this price increase and hopefully the corresponding increase in wild lion numbers and habitat and then could have a measurable conservation benefit directly linked to the hunting of lion. This valuable research is our biggest weapon in the fight to save hunting. It will never convince a anti-hunter because he's an idealist who doesn't listen to reason. But it will convince the non-hunter who hasn't yet formed a strong enough opinion on hunting to choose sides.

Then when this has been attained, the higher lion price would make it financially possible for a lion breeder to have a release period of 6 months or more. The increase in habitat would also contribute to more wild lions in the supply chain. And the supply of lions would again go up and this whole cycle will repeat itself ending with lion prices approximately where they are now. But...with a significant conservation and moral gain.

This would be the free market version of lion hunting and I'm sure there are a lot of real-world problems with this idea, but it's something to consider.

Victor
Click to expand...

Victor that is an admirable string of thoughts and I would hope all hunters and businessmen could see the logic and strive to make it happen.

However I fear we will never get that far down the road... The thing that will bring your grand idea to a screeching halt is Western Governments imposing import bans on lion trophies. That will shut off the money and remove the engine that drives real Wildlife Conservation in Africa... I fear this recent PHASA decision in just going to be another reason for at least the USFWS to impose such a ban.
 
That's what is going to kill it, is the import bans, look at the difference between exportable elephants and non-exportable. They will use rulings such as the one by PHASA as evidence for why there should be a ban.
 
ActionBob said:
Marius the error in your assumption is that this is what I call "trucker math"... I hire a lot of trucking and when fuel prices doubled a few years ago, the truckers all doubled their rates with the excuse "fuel doubled!" Well fuel is about 1/3rd of their cost, not 100% o_O His fixed cost stayed the same. As did his labor cost.

Conversely, a lion breeder supplying 20 lions per year instead of 100 will see his variable expense drop to 20% of what it had been... Of course his fixed cost will likely stay about the same, unless he diversifies into other things to help utilize the fixed assets. But if he charges 5x the price, he will be realizing a much greater profit..... Of course if he has to bear the cost of additional carry time, that changes the economics again.
Click to expand...

Bob, I get your way of thinking, regarding the transporters and lion breeders, but can't agree with you.

If the Lion breeders work on a 20% mark up per Lion, of what each Lion costs them from birth to selling, and he sells less Lions, his profit will be less. That is simple economics that does not get affected whether his fix cost per Lion stays the same.

Funny enough, we are also in the transport business. We calculate what our fuel economy is per truck, and adjust the increase in fuel according to that to cover the increase. We charge per mile, if that makes any sense.
 
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