Rhodesia

[Denvir Tire]

A very good book, documenting one family's day to day experience under the Mugabe regime.

 

[Rare Breed]

But, indeed those "empires were not forward thinking or did not exist when the Dutch/British" arrived. Perhaps with your understanding of anthropology and history of Africa you could explain how Dutch settlers arriving on the South African coast at the Cape of Good Hope in 1652 and the British in 1820 managed to cause the abandonment of Great Zimbabwe and collapse of the Shona empire in the mid fifteenth century.

No one will argue that communities with cultural identities did not exist in Africa during the time of Arab (which preceded the Europeans by hundreds of years) and European colonial intervention was taking place. But south of the Sahara, there was no culture remotely as sophisticated as the Pre-Columbian empires of Central and South America. Nor was Africa south of the Sahara something of a natural paradise where humans enjoyed some sort of Eden like existence. The Zulu, and its militaristic culture, were as brutal a conqueror as the Huns. Shaka kaSenzangakhona could have shown Genghis Khan a few things about punishment and the treatment of conquered peoples that whole impaling. Most actual historians of the Zulu credit Shaka's reign and wars of conquest alone with the deaths of at least two-million indigenous people.

It would take a finer appreciation of cultural destruction than mine to determine whether the bare foot of Shaka or the bootheel of a German or British soldier would feel better to the neck of a Ndwandwe or Xhosa. It would also take a far more sympathetic appreciation of comparative cultures to believe being in one where disobedience meant being left on a sharpened stake in my anus to slowly die or being marched up a pyramid to have my heart cut out was somehow superior to life as a businessman or even laborer in Johannesburg or Mexico City.

Like even the truly sophisticated Central and South American cultures, none survive the arrival of more militarily powerful, socially organized, or technologically advanced cultures. That happened within those geographic regions such as the conquests by the Aztec or Zulu or Celts - and when those cultures encountered more powerful exterior powers such as Spain, Britain, Saxons, or Rome. Every human on this planet, and the advances human civilization have made, are products of such waves of conquest and migration.

Such historical norms are neither good nor bad. They simply are.

Extremely well written and told!

 

[sgt_zim]

You are clearly not familiar with the empires that existed in that area before the whites arrived or the city of great Zimbabwe.

You are describing exceptions, not rules, which is really my point.

 

[RLD]

You are describing exceptions, not rules, which is really my point.

I am describing what was in Rhodesia when europeans arrived. Rather than the claims in the OP that it was a sparsely populated empty land waiting for occupants. Which was inaccurate.

 

[RLD]

Not really.
Except they were not a advanced people.
True they had empires.
But they had the time and and resources they should have been the rules of the world right?
They had more time. Since human life started.
They should have had been more industrialized than any other place.
Why then we’re a lot not all but enough primitive just a step or so above stone age?

When younger civilizations were able to colonize them?

You know Africa way better than me.
So why were they colonized vs colonizer?
They had the earliest civilization they had plenty of natural resources.
So what keep them there and not advance enough to if not colonize the rest of the world at least fight off way younger civilizations?

I guess you havn't even bothered to read Guns, Germs and Steel yet.

And they did not have plenty of natural resources.

The reasons that European and Asian civilizations developed industrial faster than Africa is simply that they were better environments to do so.

For instance, Europe has large deposits of iron ore and coal near the surface, which are crucial for industrializaton. In Africa they are deep (you will probably now that Africa has some of the deepest mines in the world), which are not accessible to developing people.

Africa has no large native domesticable beasts of burden. Like the horse or ox. Kind of an issue.

And perhaps most importantly europe lucked into getting gunpowder from the Chinese who invented it.

Africa became the colonized, to a large degree, because they didn't have firearms. Which was partially due to their geographic isolation, which was a hinderance to developing trade.

But what is your alternative explanation? Do you suggest Africans are simply somehow inferior?

 

[Flbt]

I guess you havn't even bothered to read Guns, Germs and Steel yet.

And they did not have plenty of natural resources.

The reasons that European and Asian civilizations developed industrial faster than Africa is simply that they were better environments to do so.

For instance, Europe has large deposits of iron ore and coal near the surface, which are crucial for industrializaton. In Africa they are deep (you will probably now that Africa has some of the deepest mines in the world), which are not accessible to developing people.

Africa has no large native domesticable beasts of burden. Like the horse or ox. Kind of an issue.

And perhaps most importantly europe lucked into getting gunpowder from the Chinese who invented it.

Africa became the colonized, to a large degree, because they didn't have firearms. Which was partially due to their geographic isolation, which was a hinderance to developing trade.

But what is your alternative explanation? Do you suggest Africans are simply somehow inferior

BS
Life or human life stated in Africa.
They had millions of years head start on the rest of the world.


Or are you saying when humans left Africa
There potential and ability changed?

Or that there was further evolutionary development after humans left Africa?

 

[RLD]

BS
Life or human life stated in Africa.
They had millions of years head start on the rest of the world.


Or are you saying when humans left Africa
There potential and ability changed?

Or that there was further evolutionary development after humans left Africa?

Are you serious? I think you are missing the whole point, on more than one level.

First off, humans, modern humans, have not been around for millions of years. So "they" didn't have millions of years of head start.

You are making my point for me. The reason that european societies got ahead of sub saharan african societies is because their environment was better for it. Despite your inaccurate blanket claim about their natural resources, conditions and resources were better in Europe than Africa for industrial development. And I am pretty willing to bet you won't find a legit scholar who disagrees with that approach.

Neither their potential or ability changed. I think that Africans and Europeans have the same ability and potential. Do you?

The difference is that the european environment offered more and better resources for industrial/agricultural development.

Why do you think Europeans got ahead? If not the conventional theory of better environment/resources that what is it?

 

[Flbt]

As far a resources how many years were European countries sailing around? And Asian country’s? Doing a lot of training?
How much of that was natural resources?
I am not talking mines.
Wood cloth animals skins?
Don’t think early Norse were using much more at least in the start.

Millions of years a quick look up from world atlas says 6 million.
Modern human in Africa 350,000 260,000 years
Modern humans in England 41,000 to 40,000
260,00 - 40,000 is what a 220,000 year head start
I don’t honestly care of the number are right
Pulled them up by ask I when modern humans were in Africa vs England.
There a substantial time the modern humans were in Africa before they were anywhere else.
They had more time on the continent of Africa than the rest of the world.
Africa should have been way ahead of everyone else.

 

[Flbt]

Are you serious? I think you are missing the whole point, on more than one level.

First off, humans, modern humans, have not been around for millions of years. So "they" didn't have millions of years of head start.

You are making my point for me. The reason that european societies got ahead of sub saharan african societies is because their environment was better for it. Despite your inaccurate blanket claim about their natural resources, conditions and resources were better in Europe than Africa for industrial development. And I am pretty willing to bet you won't find a legit scholar who disagrees with that approach.

Neither their potential or ability changed. I think that Africans and Europeans have the same ability and potential. Do you?

The difference is that the european environment offered more and better resources for industrial/agricultural development.

Why do you think Europeans got ahead? If not the conventional theory of better environment/resources that what is it?

Also if everyone originally came from Africa.
The so called colonizer are just a different tribe that left Africa and returned. And are still just doing tribal war so it’s ok?
Right?

They were just trying to help a brother out you know.

 

[Flbt]

I guess saying look up world iq by county would not be PC anymore?

 

[RLD]

As far a resources how many years were European countries sailing around? And Asian country’s? Doing a lot of training?
How much of that was natural resources?
I am not talking mines.
Wood cloth animals skins?
Don’t think early Norse were using much more at least in the start.

Millions of years a quick look up from world atlas says 6 million.
Modern human in Africa 350,000 260,000 years
Modern humans in England 41,000 to 40,000
260,00 - 40,000 is what a 220,000 year head start
I don’t honestly care of the number are right
Pulled them up by ask I when modern humans were in Africa vs England.
There a substantial time the modern humans were in Africa before they were anywhere else.
They had more time on the continent of Africa than the rest of the world.
Africa should have been way ahead of everyone else.

If not evironment and resources then what? What is your argument? You seem to have gotten incoherent?

Time is not the only issue. You can have a billion years but if you don't have accessible coal and iron you are not going to industrialize the way we understand it.

 

[RLD]

I guess saying look up world iq by county would not be PC anymore?

I can't wait for this one. Help us out on world IQ. I can't wait. It'll be a hoot.

 

[Flbt]

If not evironment and resources then what? What is your argument? You seem to have gotten incoherent?

Time is not the only issue. You can have a billion years but if you don't have accessible coal and iron you are not going to industrialize the way we understand it.

Ok I give you your not making tanks.
But how much metal was in the early Viking ships? Not much.
Gun powder? Charcoal, potassium nitrate and sulfur? With all that extra time surly they should have beaten the Chinese? Or Africa did not have animal sh$$ and trees?

 

[RLD]

Ok I give you your not making tanks.
But how much metal was in the early Viking ships? Not much.
Gun powder? Charcoal, potassium nitrate and sulfur? With all that extra time surly they should have beaten the Chinese? Or Africa did not have animal sh$$ and trees?

Viking metallurgy is very well regarded. It was very good.

Why do you despise Africans so?

 

[Flbt]

I can't wait for this one. Help us out on world IQ. I can't wait. It'll be a hoot.

Actually it’s was quite interesting what little time I spent on it looking up a few countries on google. Never payed it much attention.
I had mine checked in high school years ago. When they were testing the dyslexia. I was one of the few they knew had it.
If you’re wondering 118.
Not that high abit above normal here.

 

[Flbt]

Actually it’s was quite interesting what little time I spent on it looking up a few countries on google. Never payed it much attention.
I had mine checked in high school years ago. When they were testing the dyslexia. I was one of the few they knew had it.
If you’re wondering 118.
Not that high abit above normal here.

And no I don’t think is.
So much a race thing.
I think iq can go up or down depending on the questions and the schooling.
I know stuff that was in my dads 8th grd books if asked today most probably would not know.

But I do think it can show the ability to work together and how school is valued or not by a people. And that matters to a civilization.

 

[Flbt]

Viking metallurgy is very well regarded. It was very good.

Why do you despise Africans so?

Yes but the early ship’s did not have very much metal in them.

 

[Flbt]

And I don’t despise them not at all.
I do despise some of the stories I over heard as a kid. For Rhodesians farmers that relocate to Fl. Stories I tried to over hear after the adults thought the kids were asleep.
I despise the liberal view history and especially on colonizing.
It’s not a race thing. It to me truly is the liberal stance on it.
Its not really about race like most of the liberal people around here try to make it be.
It’s a human condition were the strong take from the weak. It’s been the way of the world
And way off subject one of the reasons I think sending messages off to space looking for contact is not a grate idea.
Interstellar travel shows up to a world where we still basically have tribes. Better hope there not like mankind.


Hey if we all came from Africa originally we are all African.

 

[Flbt]

Viking metallurgy is very well regarded. It was very good.

Why do you despise Africans so?

When I came back to a public school.
My first black history class.
They were teaching like the blacks in the US were the only slaves. Yes I am not joking and they did not teach anything about the Brits trying to stop the slave trade out of Africa.
They tought it like the white colonizer just showed up stormed the hole continent alone to make them slaves.
No Arab slave trade no tribal fighting that produces slaves. Nothing.

I started questioning some of the things. The next day at home room. The teacher talked to me before I could leave.
I was told I was going to have study hall for history class. Don’t worry you will get a A for it.
They did not want any other info that changed the view.
Now that teacher is a democrat county commissioner.

Back then I really did not care a A for class and not going to the class sounded grate.
I should have sued the hell out of the school for that. But back then it never went even crossed my mind.

 

[Flbt]

Viking metallurgy is very well regarded. It was very good.

Why do you despise Africans so?

Now step up a bunch of years and now white privilege. My youngest heard about it in her school. How the African Americans had no chance they could not help but to commit crimes to live they had no way out.
My kid was told after asking a few questions you can never understand you have the advantage all your life you can never understand.
I graduated the same high school rode the same busses. The only white privilege I saw and one of my buddy saw.
We did not smoke crack, we did not get someone pregnant before we got out of school. Actually did the school work instead of parting
We both went on to jobs where together we probably saw 70 or so of our class behind bars.
That’s out of 355.
But a teacher told my kid it was white privilege not personal choice.

It’s not the Africans I despise hell I know very few of them hard to despise what you don’t know.
It’s not a race I despise.

But liberals and especially American liberal democrats yea I despise them. No mater where from or what color.