Question For Our German & Austrian Members

[Muskox]

I used to own a Blaser S-2, I owned a Krieghoff Big Game in 500/416 for short time.

Never owned a Heym anything.

Short answer. Buy what makes you happy.

Neither company is very big, they both produce a nice rifle. A Krieghoff is a very German gun made to meet what most Europeans want. Namely a decocker and it is easier to scope mount.

Krieghoff's used to only use one action size, and the big calibers killed on both ends.

I am an American who lives in Germany, ethnically I am German but I am really an American.

Neither one of these companies produces a rifle that is significantly common among the German public.

I would own a Krieghoff double rifle. I would not own a Heym double rifle, as I do like the decocker.

 

[Levubu]

One thing that isn’t adding up is to date, I have never seen a Krieghoff with an adjustable muzzle, whereas your post states that’s a feature on all their rifles. I would infer that what I have seen with my own eyes indicates that this WAS a problem and they have now changed their method of regulating the wedge in the recent era.

The only Krieghoff DRs I’ve handled were their Big 5 lineup.

My Krieghoff is a Classic Big Five - the muzzle is adjustable. However the calibre is 9.3x74R. A calibre bigger than that will always be without adjustable muzzle.

 

[SStomcat]

Those barrel adjustments don’t exist on the big bore Krieghoff. Call Pennsylvania and simply asked if they can change your POI in Pennsylvania without sending it back to the factory. Ask them how much. Then ask how they do it. They use a mill somehow to remove material from one side of the crown. Unless their process has changed in the last 2 years.

Ah, the legendary Pennsylvania Crown-Whittling Method™ — truly the stuff of gunmaking folklore.
Look, I’m well aware the big-bore Krieghoffs don’t come with magical invisible adjusters. But thanks for the pro tip on calling Pennsylvania… because nothing says “precision regulation” like firing up a mill and shaving one side of the crown. Very bespoke. Very artisanal.

I’ll be sure to ask them if the process has evolved since the last time they performed their sacred ritual of material removal. Maybe they’ve even upgraded from a mill to—who knows—a file.

But sure, keep explaining it like you’ve uncovered the Da Vinci Code of POI adjustment.
I rest my case

 

[Altitude sickness]

No they are not. - I’m simply appalled how un verified information from net can be used to tarnish a brands image -
No, Krieghoff does not use a Dremel tool for regulating their double-barreled rifles
Krieghoff employs a more sophisticated and precise method for barrel regulation:

• Muzzle Adjustment Device: Krieghoff double rifles and drillings feature a "muzzle adjustment device" or "barrel adjustment device" that allows for the precise regulation of the barrels. This system uses set screws and a hex (Allen) key to mechanically adjust the points of impact, eliminating the need for the traditional, time-consuming process of repeatedly soft-soldering, shooting, and unsoldering the barrels.
• Factory Service: Krieghoff's US operations in Pennsylvania offer barrel regulation services, which can be done to match a hunter's preferred ammunition load, utilizing their adjustable system. This is a professional service, not an ad-hoc process using a Dremel.

I’m not sure who’s point your trying to make. Mine or yours.

You were defending Krieghoff as having an accurate, precise barrel adjustment. I simply said they do not on the big bores and they mill the crown. And since it appeared you don’t believe it. To call them.

I surely wasn’t promoting that you have it done.

 

[One Day...]

I disagree with minute of ole--the brain is only the size of a football. I would hate for 3" off to get someone killed with a marginal shot that would have been OK with a bolt action.

Maybe you do not really visualize what a 4" group represents in an elephant brain...

Last I checked, tape measure in hand, and sawed off elephant skull on the ground, in elephant hunting camp in Zim, the brain of a bull elephant measures as follows:

• Length: ~12" to 14"
• Height: ~6" to 8"
• Width: ~4" to 6"

This is the reason why my double rifle target, as illustrated in my previous post, was a 4" wide circle.

Notice that the "football" shape analogy is just that, an analogy. It applies best from the side, but not well from the front, as an elephant brain is not circular but oval when viewed from the front.

So, here is how a ~4" group looks on a frontal brain shot of a elephant. In this case, the "football" shape is viewed from the face.

The grid is 1" wide.

Obviously, a side brain shot offers a considerably larger target, as in that case, the "football" shape is viewed from the side.

I will therefore stand comfortably firm on my previous post statement that: "even a 4" spread is 'minute of Buff or Ele' in real life".

And I will again emphasize that the true limiting factor is human. I already touched in the previous post on the hunter's ability to shoot a double rifle off hand, and just for fun I will add the hunter's ability to visualize where the brain is when looking at the live elephant...

 

[Altitude sickness]

Ok the rifle is at 4” Now add adrenaline

 

[steve white]

Maybe you do not really visualize what a 4" group represents in an elephant brain...

Last I checked, tape measure in hand, and sawed off elephant skull on the ground, in elephant hunting camp in Zim, the brain of a bull elephant measures as follows:

• Length: ~12" to 14"
• Height: ~6" to 8"
• Width: ~4" to 6"

This is the reason why my double rifle target, as illustrated in my previous post, was a 4" wide circle.

Notice that the "football" shape analogy is just that, an analogy. It applies best from the side, but not well from the front, as an elephant brain is not circular but oval when viewed from the front.

So, here is how a ~4" group looks on a frontal brain shot of a elephant. In this case, the "football" shape is viewed from the face.

The grid is 1" wide.
View attachment 728146
Obviously, a side brain shot offers a considerably larger target, as in that case, the "football" shape is viewed from the side.

I will therefore stand comfortably firm on my previous post statement that: "even a 4" spread is 'minute of Buff or Ele' in real life".

And I will again emphasize that the true limiting factor is human. I already touched in the previous post on the hunter's ability to shoot a double rifle off hand, and just for fun I will add the hunter's ability to visualize where the brain is when looking at the live elephant...

One Day--you are one of the few that I ALWAYS learn from and trust on AH. Having said that I respectfully submit that you have made my argument in describing problems with angles, shooting a double with whatever iron sight picture that particular rifle requires--fine bead or coarse, 6 o'clock hold etc, etc.. People miss the brain with guns that shoot well, much less a 4" that could miss if the hold was marginal. I don't know and haven't even heard of anyone who would trust their life to a bolt action that would only shoot 4" at 50yds or even 100! Doubles don't get a pass because they are romantic.
IF, and it's a big if, the shot is centered, and the pattern is 4" well and good. If the shot WOULD have connected with an accurate rifle, but the double's inches off pattern causes it to slide by, nothing will be on any consolation to what is left of you between the elephant's toes.

 

[One Day...]

Ok the rifle is at 4” Now add adrenaline

Nice sound bite, but here again reality intervenes...

Adrenaline will not affect how the rifle groups, it will affect how the hunter shoots -- often off hand when elephant hunting -- and as I hinted previously, that is a much less controlled factor, when groups often open not by single inch but by multiple inches, if not by feet.

It is irrelevant whether the rifle shoots 2" or 4" at 50 yards when the hunter shoots 6" or 8" off the mark at 50 yards, and, perversely, you can even make the point that a 4" group has a random chance to somewhat reclaim a shot that flies when the point of aim overs 6" from the target.

Anyway, the hard reality is that 2" groups at 50 yds are more the exception than the rule with double rifles, including the most expensive and exquisite British or Continental rifles, if only due to the fact that most double are not hunted with the ammo they were regulated with, and a 4" group at 50 yds is perfectly viable, even for the most difficult double rifle shot: the frontal brain shot on elephant, and this reality has been recognized long enough (about 100 years) by enough pros that I do not feel the need to argue about it in the wonderful world of internet.

 

[One Day...]

One Day--you are one of the few that I ALWAYS learn from and trust on AH. Having said that I respectfully submit that you have made my argument in describing problems with angles, shooting a double with whatever iron sight picture that particular rifle requires--fine bead or coarse, 6 o'clock hold etc, etc.. People miss the brain with guns that shoot well, much less a 4" that could miss if the hold was marginal. I don't know and haven't even heard of anyone who would trust their life to a bolt action that would only shoot 4" at 50yds or even 100! Doubles don't get a pass because they are romantic.
IF, and it's a big if, the shot is centered, and the pattern is 4" well and good. If the shot WOULD have connected with an accurate rifle, but the double's inches off pattern causes it to slide by, nothing will be on any consolation to what is left of you between the elephant's toes.

I appreciate that Steve, but the reality is that we tend to idealize things in the comfort of intellectual discussions.

In real life, millions of deers, elks, PG, DG have been killed by rifle/hunter combinations that could not keep 5 shots in a 6" plate (never mind 4") a 100 yards to save their life.

Of course we all want MOA accuracy, but remember the times, not so long ago, when famed writers poured oceans of inks in the gun magazines, and spent untold amounts of money with revered gunsmiths, pursuing the mythical 1 MOA rifle? They are boringly common now, thanks to CNC machining and loading, but how many rifles produced in the 60's, 70's, 80's or even 90's, on war surplus machinery, and shooting commercial ammo loaded on war surplus loading lines, could hold 2 MOA, or even 4 MOA? That did not prevent hunting from being generally as successful and safe as it is today... even in Africa...

And if you want to convince yourself, next time you are with a group of hunters, invite them to shoot 6" paper plates at 100 yards from field positions, including sticks. You will be shocked when you measure the groups.......................................

Sorry for being relentlessly practical here, but no one's life is at risk with a double that keeps its shots in a 4" spread at 50 yds. The question I would much rather seen addressed is whether the double rifle shooter can keep his shots in a 4" spread off hand at 50 yds

As to trusting one's life to a rifle that would only shoot 4" at 50yds or even 100yds, what do you think the typical group was/is for a standard issue Garand, K98, M14, FAL, G3, M16, M4, God Forbid: AK 47? Put a 4" circle on your chest at 50 yards (or even an 8" circle on your chest at 100 yards), any hole in it will kill you... Same for Buffalo, Kudu, Lion, etc.

But I agree that it is comfort-building to have a 2" double or a 1" bolt action

 

[Altitude sickness]

I think we are conflating numbers here. The 3-4 inch group was best case scenario. the best the rifle could produce.

And I agree. Many are happy with 4”’groups.

 

[rookhawk]

I don’t know if I would feel comfortable with a rifle that shoots 4” at 50 yards. The second composite group is only going to get worse with barrel heating. I’d hate to get into trouble with cow elephants finding out that a 3-4-5-6 shot is now 8”-12” groups.

Heyms and British Rifles tend to have much better regulation with irons than the 3”-4” cited above.


Heym 470NE, 5/8” Group at 50 paces:

Vintage London Rifle in 450#2 NE, 1.25” at 50 paces:

 

[MS 9x56]

A credible member of this forum informed me about his experiences with Krieghoff and their dremel regulation.

In a PM, he wrote:
“I know this sounds hard to believe. But when I was dissatisfied with the 3” group of my Krieghoff Big Ten, I talked to the US rep and he said they would regulate it for $300.

I thought wow that’s great. until I learned how they did it.

They actually do the same thing as Sabatti. he says they use a mill and remove material from one side of the crown until they can move one bullet over.

He then said 3” was good regulation”

And these doubles cost how much?

 

[One Day...]

I don’t know if I would feel comfortable with a rifle that shoots 4” at 50 yards. The second composite group is only going to get worse with barrel heating. I’d hate to get into trouble with cow elephants finding out that a 3-4-5-6 shot is now 8”-12” groups.

Well, you may have noticed that most of my load testing involved 6 consecutive shots, and that K Gun certainly did not open its shots to 8" or 12"

You may also have noticed that all my load testing involved commercial ammo. Who know what the rifle would do with finely tuned handloads

Naively, I shall confess that I never cared! Like trying to get my R8 to shoot 1/4 MOA with handloads from the bench. To what hunting purpose?

Again, hello real world

 

[One Day...]

Look guys, I am not really interested in arguing endlessly whether a 4" tennis ball fits within a football

Let all those dissatisfied with their doubles that spread more than 2" at 50 yards contact me by PM, I will happily give them my local FFL address and license number, and I will happily relieve them for free of their defective / dangerous doubles

 

[High Country Hunts]

As a shooter of doubles - Example my 26 year old Heym 470- hundreds and hundreds of rounds fired. locks up tight like the day it came off the production line. 4 shots into a playing card at 50 yards off a sandbag. Doesn't matter if hot barrels, cold barrels, windy, rain whatever - such a heavy pill impacts the same at the regulation distance of 50 yards (well that's Heym standard from factory back then anyway).
As you all know gentleman - shooting at dangerous game or any game for that matter is completely different to shooting a cardboard box.
practice, practice and practice some more - some days i shoot off hand well, some days not so well. But I think back to the sand bag accuracy, and try harder, and try to replicate off sticks, and free standing, or grab a tree, whatever. That's ok, I use my double regularly even on sambar deer and other large frame critters. To be 100% familiar with the rifle in a hunting situation.
A person whom shoots a 1.5 inch group at a range off sticks with no pressure and that's all the practice he gets - before going on safari - will be unlikely to have such accuracy in the field with the big grey mouse coming at you with ears flapping.
Need that muscle memory. That's important.
enjoy your hunting.

 

[rookhawk]

And these doubles cost how much?

They cost the least amount of money of any double that has reasonable quality and utter reliability.