P14 DG rifles

[VSOHunt]

Looking to chat to anyone who has built a big bore on a P14 action
Thanks
Ian

 

[C.W. Richter]

Art Alphin (A-Sq) built a LOT of 'em on Enfield P17 actions (long mag. calibers). I have one in that action (and many elder friends either bought Rem's Enfield P17s (built at their Eddystone PA plant-purchased from Baldwin Locomotive that was originally contracted to make WWI guns.) P14 was the British version (often in stock .303s over here) and P17 American '06s. Full length bedding works well w/ em. Numrich used to have abundant parts. Years back I'd see many .303s (and .30-06s) converted to .308 Norma Mag at shows, but even older gen hunters used 'em as-is in .303 for deer. A-Sq favored the P17s-have one originally made for a .460 Wby but barreled in .338 A-Sq (.338-.460 Wby, later offered by Wby as the .338-378 Wby w/ the radiused shoulder). Fantastic shooter/super accurate. Without the big surface area butt of the heavy A-Sq ("Coil-Chek") stock, I'd think it'd recoil like hell in a big bore!! Use the right contour bbl and matched stock (or add Hg reducers). The mag release of the P17 is difficult at best, but you won't ever have cartridges on the ground upon firing! I like the M98 action better. 'Have had up to .458 WM in 'em w/ no issues-and also super accurate! You may wish to speak with an elderly gunsmith. No kidding.

 

[C.W. Richter]

*apparently the P14 and 17s are the same thing-the 2nd simply constructed to accept 3006. Research the pressures these varying actions can accept before using one for a cannon! Eddystone made 1,181,908 rifles – more than the production of Remington (545,541 rifles) and Winchester (465,980 rifles) combined. The Springfield Armory had delivered approximately 843,000 M1903 Springfield rifles. Rem used it in the 30s M30 sporter and there was even a M37 made in Honduras. Remington retained the S-curved bolt for many generations and Wby still uses the P17 style safety!

 

[USMA84DAB]

The P14 has a sightly smaller extractor than the P17, but it large enough that it should never fail.

I have a P14 barreled and am at the stocking stage.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The P14 has a sightly smaller extractor than the P17, but it large enough that it should never fail.

I have a P14 barreled and am at the stocking stage.

P14 would indeed have a smaller extractor claw because 303 has a larger cartridge rim than 30-06. If one is building a DGR rifle, a 1917 extractor claw would require significantly more trimming than P14's.

I have a P14 donor waiting to be built into something. These are a more expensive action to build into DGR than Mauser because of the ears on the receiver which have to be removed and the "duck pond" cavity between them that needs to be filled. I absolutely do not care for cock-on-closing bolts, but there are kits available to change to cock-on-opening. Enfield signature dog-leg bolt handle is not particularly appealing to me but I can live with it. The two-position side safety on my P14 is probably worn out ... or are they all that sloppy? I understand the actions are strong enough to take just about any DGR cartridge. I also don't care for the looks of Enfield's "guppy belly" magazine. I would change to trimmer stock and bottom metal. Four shots is enough.

 

[C.W. Richter]

An afterthought occurred...the Enfield action is regarded as very strong as its bolt not only has locking lugs up front, but it actually has a rear lug that also locks when the bolt is closed. Some refer to it as a "hybrid" design. Another reason 'smiths loved 'em for big stuff. The dark recesses reminded me as I had an "all-rear" locking lug system in ye ole Steyr-Mannlicher S/T .375 (slickest action 'ever! Not CRF, but super smooth and precise.)

 

[Ontario Hunter]

An afterthought occurred...the Enfield action is regarded as very strong as its bolt not only has locking lugs up front, but it actually has a rear lug that also locks when the bolt is closed. Some refer to it as a "hybrid" design. Another reason 'smiths loved 'em for big stuff. The dark recesses reminded me as I had an "all-rear" locking lug system in ye ole Steyr-Mannlicher S/T .375 (slickest action 'ever! Not CRF, but super smooth and precise.)

98 Mauser and 1903 Springfield both have a third lug but it is a "safety" lug and actually does not lock when bolt is closed, leaving a significant gap between lug and receiver. It's just there in case the gun blows up and the two lugs in the locking ring fail. Mauser and 1903 locking lugs can be lapped to engage the third lug but really that's overkill in my opinion. The Enfield bolt does NOT have a third Mauser style lug; however the bolt handle MAY act as a safety lug when the bolt is closed. I checked my P14 and an index card fits in the gap between the bolt handle and adjacent receiver when action is closed so, like Mauser style 3rd lug, its bolt handle is also a typically dysfunctional safety feature ... at best. The part of the receiver against which the bolt handle would lock (if it locked) is riddled with safety mechanism so not terribly strong. Again, with a little work the Enfield bolt handle could be brought to bear but how much more pressure advantage it would provide seems questionable to me. The Enfield bolt handle is substantially less substantial than the Mauser style third safety lug. Of the three, 1903 has by far the most substantial safety lug (more than twice the size of Mauser's!) ... for what it's worth ... which isn't much because all three safety lugs are mostly decorative.

 

[VSOHunt]

Wow. Thanks for all the info. I have a 416 Rem on a p14 that feeds flawlessly now
Cock on closing took some getting used to, may opt to modify to cock on opening.
I had to do some feed ramp modifications to feed FN solids when the bolt slammed closed but that was relatively easy and it now feeds at any speed without fail
My thoughts are to go 500 Jeff due to case availability in SA.

 

[RR 314]

They can be awesome . . . or rough. I have seen both. I have several rifles on P14/17 and the Duane Wiebe is as nice as any rifle I own. I think I need to go to a “scared straight camp” as the fleur de lis on a couple of my rifles has really grown on me.

This action is as nice as any I have in the brace. Duane is a true artisan.

I think there is still a place for the P14/17; however, if you are building a true masterpiece/lifetime rifle, I think the economics now would indicate go with GMA etc. rather than spending the money to perfect a “P” action.

 

[roklok]

I am not a P14/1917 expert, but do have some experience with them. I have completed a 375 H&H build on a Remington 30 Express, which is basically a 1917 in civilian dress. I am also in various stages of currently building a .404 Jeffery and a .416 Rigby on 1917 actions. The later Remington 30s were true cock on open, with a full cocking cam built into the bolt. This is my preference. The cock on open conversions that simply swap the cocking piece and mainspring can be reliable, but the very short striker fall does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling on a DG rifle. On these conversions, the cocking piece is only being withdrawn to the "safety cam" ledge on the bolt. The "correct" way to convert a 1917/P17 to cock on open entails welding up the cocking cam on back of bolt to Remington 30 specs to allow for full striker fall. Then after welding a Remington 30 or modified military cocking piece needs to be used. This used to be done by gunsmiths, but doubt there are very many who would still tackle this procedure. I do not like the cock on close military actions as is, because I struggle to run them from the shoulder. I have purchased 3 or 4 bolts over the years that have had the cocking cam welded up to fully cock on open, not the half-ass cock on open of the conversion kits. I haven't attempted one yet, but I am intending on trying to TIG one up myself. I do have a transition Remington 30 that is still cock on close, but not the very long military cock on close, I can run that one from the shoulder very quickly.

It sounds like your magazine has already been lengthened if you have it chambered in 416 Rem. A common misconception is these actions are ready to handle huge cartridges. They can handle huge cartridges, but require magazine and receiver mods to do so, in factory configuration they are set up for .303 or 30-06 length of cartridges.

 

[VSOHunt]

I wil

98 Mauser and 1903 Springfield both have a third lug but it is a "safety" lug and actually does not lock when bolt is closed, leaving a significant gap between lug and receiver. It's just there in case the gun blows up and the two lugs in the locking ring fail. Mauser and 1903 locking lugs can be lapped to engage the third lug but really that's overkill in my opinion. The Enfield bolt does NOT have a third Mauser style lug; however the bolt handle MAY act as a safety lug when the bolt is closed. I checked my P14 and an index card fits in the gap between the bolt handle and adjacent receiver when action is closed so, like Mauser style 3rd lug, its bolt handle is also a typically dysfunctional safety feature ... at best. The part of the receiver against which the bolt handle would lock (if it locked) is riddled with safety mechanism so not terribly strong. Again, with a little work the Enfield bolt handle could be brought to bear but how much more pressure advantage it would provide seems questionable to me. The Enfield bolt handle is substantially less substantial than the Mauser style third safety lug. Of the three, 1903 has by far the most substantial safety lug (more than twice the size of Mauser's!) ... for what it's worth ... which isn't much because all three safety lugs are mostly decorative.

Beautiful rifle

They can be awesome . . . or rough. I have seen both. I have several rifles on P14/17 and the Duane Wiebe is as nice as any rifle I own. I think I need to go to a “scared straight camp” as the fleur de lis on a couple of my rifles has really grown on me.

This action is as nice as any I have in the brace. Duane is a true artisan.

Beautiful Rifle. Duane is indeed a master.
Would you mind getting a shot of the feed ramp and mag box. I’d be interested to see what he has to remove to make it work

I am not a P14/1917 expert, but do have some experience with them. I have completed a 375 H&H build on a Remington 30 Express, which is basically a 1917 in civilian dress. I am also in various stages of currently building a .404 Jeffery and a .416 Rigby on 1917 actions. The later Remington 30s were true cock on open, with a full cocking cam built into the bolt. This is my preference. The cock on open conversions that simply swap the cocking piece and mainspring can be reliable, but the very short striker fall does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling on a DG rifle. On these conversions, the cocking piece is only being withdrawn to the "safety cam" ledge on the bolt. The "correct" way to convert a 1917/P17 to cock on open entails welding up the cocking cam on back of bolt to Remington 30 specs to allow for full striker fall. Then after welding a Remington 30 or modified military cocking piece needs to be used. This used to be done by gunsmiths, but doubt there are very many who would still tackle this procedure. I do not like the cock on close military actions as is, because I struggle to run them from the shoulder. I have purchased 3 or 4 bolts over the years that have had the cocking cam welded up to fully cock on open, not the half-ass cock on open of the conversion kits. I haven't attempted one yet, but I am intending on trying to TIG one up myself. I do have a transition Remington 30 that is still cock on close, but not the very long military cock on close, I can run that one from the shoulder very quickly.

It sounds like your magazine has already been lengthened if you have it chambered in 416 Rem. A common misconception is these actions are ready to handle huge cartridges. They can handle huge cartridges, but require magazine and receiver mods to do so, in factory configuration they are set up for .303 or 30-06 length of cartridges.

Thanks for all the info. That lines up with my understanding. Would’ve keen to see the cock on opening process when you do the full spec mod.
Yes mine has extended mag to hold 5 rounds, but I’m looking to see some mag boxes once modified for 500 Jeff or bigger at some stage
Look forward to seeing more of your work

 

[RR 314]

I wil

Beautiful rifle

Beautiful Rifle. Duane is indeed a master.
Would you mind getting a shot of the feed ramp and mag box. I’d be interested to see what he has to remove to make it work

Thanks for all the info. That lines up with my understanding. Would’ve keen to see the cock on opening process when you do the full spec mod.
Yes mine has extended mag to hold 5 rounds, but I’m looking to see some mag boxes once modified for 500 Jeff or bigger at some stage
Look forward to seeing more of your work

Will do so. It will be tonight/tomorrow. Rifle is in the back of a safe and today is Monday/moron action day in my world.

 

[VSOHunt]

no hurry. As and when you get a chance is just fine.
Much appreciated and good luck with the Morons!

 

[roklok]

Here is a military 1917 bolt converted properly to cock on open. The cocking cam has been welded up to Remington 30 Express configuration and the military cocking piece has been modified to work with the full cocking cam. The slot on the cocking piece for safety engagement is a bit crude but it works fine. I have an old gunsmithing book which describes how to weld up these cocking cams. You can see the cocking piece is withdrawn to the rear of the bolt body.

Here is a lineup of 1917/ Remington 30 Express bolts. From left to Right (or top to bottom); 1. Late Remington 30 Cock on Open, 2. the above pictured welded "correct" cock on open conversion, 3. common "drop-in" Dayton Traister cock on open conversion, 4. Early Remington 30 "transition" cock on closing, and 5. Military cock on closing. You can see the difference in the last two bolts, both cock on closing but the Remington 30 "transition" cock on closing has less travel needed when closing the bolt. I can run this bolt very fast, not so much with the military cock on close. The first Remington 30s have military cock on close, then what I call the "transition" cock on close, then the later Remington 30 were cock on open. On bolt #3 you can see the short distance the firing pin falls, it is essentially only "half-cocked" with the drop in cock on open conversion.

You can see in the first two bolts the cocking piece is held to the rear of the bolt body, the last three the cocking piece is only held to the safety ledge on the bolt body. On the cock on close (last two) the cocking piece is further withdrawn as bolt as closed. On the drop in cock on open conversion (#3) the cocking piece is withdrawn a very slight amount as bolt is cammed down into battery, but is essentially just dropping from the safety notch, less than half the distance.